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The Brexit Thread

@Britford Something can provide a net gain, whilst the overarching picture deteriorates around it. In that instance, without said net gain the overarching picture would be worse.

An analogy, if I may - if you have two businesses in a group, one medium sized and one large. The smaller business is dong well, is profitable and contributes to the bottom line. The large business is doing badly, its shedding customers left, right and centre and losing a lot of money. If you look at the group performance, its poor, but think how much poorer it would be without the contribution of the smaller profitable business.
 
If it were just old white men, then wouldn't the NHS already have over grown the issue by now?
You're completely right, the NHS has been around for seventy years, so they've cured all the cancers. They also fixed dementia. There's literally no cardiovascular disease at all now. They definitely cured arthritis in one afternoon, and whilst they were at it, they also deleted diabetes!

... or they would have done, if it weren't for those PESKY BROWN PEOPLE!

I reject the "aging population" line, it's just an excuse
You've literally no evidence for that. You can't just reject something because it doesn't fit with your horrible "things-were-better-when-I-were-a-lad-and-there-were-no-brown-people" worldview.

Rick has repeatedly provided you with sourced statistics. Your argument is based just on your own experience.

Can you find any independent sources that back up your ridiculous opinion with independent facts? I bet you can't, because you're wrong.
 
Obesity has been rising for many years, leading to some extremely expensive illnesses, Diabetes for example.

Modern medicine has become far better at diagnosing people. Whilst previously children with Autism might go unaided, perhaps now they would be taken care of from a young age. Mental health generally has become a thing.

Many new medicines cost a lot of money to develop, and therefore usually cost a lot to administer.

The cost of lifelong smoking, Asbestos ect. Taking its toll on the older generation.

People are living for longer than ever.

The IT project which failed to deliver cost billions.

Several Reshuffles (and the advisors and research into how and why these Reshuffles should take place) cost money and take away staff morale

It's quite clear population is not the only factor at play.

To bring it back to brexit, A potential deal with US and their drug companies could exacerbate several of these issues.

Brexit has taken a toll on staff morale as well, with potential colleagues and friends feeling insecure and even having to quit, it's not a great environment.

Stock piling for Brexit Deadlines has repeatedly cost a lot of money,and the drugs quickly go out of date. The warehouse space and management however is expensive.

100,000 current Job Vacancies in the NHS. It's not a good picture.
 
If it was the aging population (causing the issues with the NHS) it would have been detected well in advance and sufficiently prepared for way before the mass immigration started!

Instead, mass immigration starts, affects the NHS then the media establishment (who all share the same ideology) mobilise to protect the narrative...in this case, it's that old white people are killing the NHS but it's far from the only time this media conspiracy has happened...

There was the new doctor who for example. Snce the BBC need to push the narrative that "the future is female" they decided to make the doctor a woman for no good reason...since only a hack would agree to this, it has awful writing and as a result, fails...thats when the media start "the feminist cycle"
First, they all, in unison, blindly declare it a resounding success and anyone who says it isnt, is smeared as an evil sexist...then, after a brief bout of panicked confusion, they all in unison, blame men...then "alt right trolls" until finally, they settle on the narrative of it being due to franchise fatigue!
Not once do they accept that maybe...people simply find it boring...

Anyway
I simply don't believe the claims of it being caused by the UK nationals, it simply doesn't add up to me.
It's also disregarding the unknown amount of illegals who arrive by boat and are then effectively released into the wild on the agreement that, of their own volition, will willingly report back for deportation...they are illegal so they can't work for the NHS but they can still use it, no questions asked...

Also, can we not have a civilised debate without degenerating into childish, false accusations?
 
If it was the aging population (causing the issues with the NHS) it would have been detected well in advance and sufficiently prepared for way before the mass immigration started!

Instead, mass immigration starts, affects the NHS then the media establishment (who all share the same ideology) mobilise to protect the narrative...in this case, it's that old white people are killing the NHS but it's far from the only time this media conspiracy has happened...

Mass migration started in the 1950s when citizens of the commonwealth no longer needed to obtain a visa to live in the UK.

How the 1940s NHS was supposed to prepare for today I've no idea.

Looking at more modern immigration, the statistics just don't support your argument. It seems entirely based on conspiracy.

Why was the immigration health surcharge not raised if this was the problem?

Why didn't you respond to my points about other areas where things have grown in demand?

You must accept this is a multi faceted problem at the very least.
 
If it was the aging population (causing the issues with the NHS) it would have been detected well in advance and sufficiently prepared for way before the mass immigration started!

The Conservative government haven't really bothered to prepare for anything. They knew the population is aging but still don't adequately fund the NHS or ensure enough nurses are trained and then pay them well enough so they want to stay working in hospitals. Here is an article from four years ago about the issue but I don't see anything from the government about the funding to try to help https://www.theguardian.com/society...t-fit-for-future-warns-top-doctor-bruce-keogh
The underfunding from the Conservaties is the problem https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...tives-underfunding-nhs-made-crisis-inevitable

Here is an article explaining that the aging population cost the NHS £1.4 billion in 2015, but EU immigrants only cost £160 million https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/
Immigration is not the problem.
 
Also, can we not have a civilised debate without degenerating into childish, false accusations?

I dunno, can we not have an election thread without bringing up Jodie Whittaker's casting in Doctor Who?

Agreed that their are media narratives now set in stone and removed of nuance - the new series of Doctor Who was very poor, and the BBC did definitely weaponise the wokeness of a female doctor to promote and defend the show - but positioning yourself at the opposite end of the scale, as you already have in this thread, is just as obnoxious and means you've likely fallen just as victim to the cooked-up 'culture war' business as anybody at the other end of the scale.

Usually at this point, I'd suggest that sometimes that stuff distracts from broader, more universal issues like say, public healthcare, but in your case, I'm just at a loss.
 
If it was the aging population (causing the issues with the NHS) it would have been detected well in advance and sufficiently prepared for way before the mass immigration started!

Instead, mass immigration starts, affects the NHS then the media establishment (who all share the same ideology) mobilise to protect the narrative...in this case, it's that old white people are killing the NHS but it's far from the only time this media conspiracy has happened...

There was the new doctor who for example. Snce the BBC need to push the narrative that "the future is female" they decided to make the doctor a woman for no good reason...since only a hack would agree to this, it has awful writing and as a result, fails...thats when the media start "the feminist cycle"
First, they all, in unison, blindly declare it a resounding success and anyone who says it isnt, is smeared as an evil sexist...then, after a brief bout of panicked confusion, they all in unison, blame men...then "alt right trolls" until finally, they settle on the narrative of it being due to franchise fatigue!
Not once do they accept that maybe...people simply find it boring...

Anyway
I simply don't believe the claims of it being caused by the UK nationals, it simply doesn't add up to me.
It's also disregarding the unknown amount of illegals who arrive by boat and are then effectively released into the wild on the agreement that, of their own volition, will willingly report back for deportation...they are illegal so they can't work for the NHS but they can still use it, no questions asked...

Also, can we not have a civilised debate without degenerating into childish, false accusations?


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I could certainly see a solution in sight very soon, but I think the form that solution will take could perhaps depend on who emerges victorious from the 12th December general election and the extent to which they are victorious.

If we get a large Conservative majority as the polls are currently predicting, then I could certainly see Boris Johnson's withdrawal agreement being passed in Parliament in preparation for a prompt exit on 31st January.

If Labour wins a majority, then I could see a potential extension to the deadline being arranged in order to facilitate a second referendum, with the result of this referendum determining the path Brexit takes.

The only way that I can see things getting a bit uncertain is if we come out of the election with a very divided hung parliament (I'm thinking one with little gap between the Conservatives and Labour and/or a large amount of seats held by non-Conservative and Labour MPs.), as that would have many differing visions as to what MPs want. However, I do not personally predict that that will happen. If we do end up with a hung parliament, then I could see it being more of a 2017-style scenario, where the largest party is only a couple of seats short of a majority.

In terms of where I'd like Brexit to go, I am increasingly starting to support the idea of a second referendum if Boris' deal doesn't pass, as I do think that that could help to either break the deadlock or let the public decide on what they think of the proposed withdrawal agreement and re-evaluate their choice. However, I think that any second referendum should be legally binding so that its result has to be acted upon. I absolutely think that Parliament would act upon the result anyway, but I feel like a legally binding referendum would perhaps prevent a similar impasse to the one that Parliament reached pre-election.
 
Unless the impulse to get something, anything done is that overwhelming to the public, the YouGov predictions from today don't suggest to me that a second referendum would result in the UK remaining in the EU. Which is completely bewildering to me given the evidence of risk on the part of leaving that's emerged since, but nothing shocks me now.

Either way, it's going to be a nightmare.
 
Unless the impulse to get something, anything done is that overwhelming to the public, the YouGov predictions from today don't suggest to me that a second referendum would result in the UK remaining in the EU. Which is completely bewildering to me given the evidence of risk on the part of leaving that's emerged since, but nothing shocks me now.

Either way, it's going to be a nightmare.
I read somewhere that the most recent poll actually suggested a 53-47 win for Remain in the event of a second referendum, but I suppose you can't really predict what would happen. I certainly don't think Remain would have a landslide victory in the way that some hope.
 
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