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Blackpool Pleasure Beach: General Discussion
- Thread starter John
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I think it was always planned as "family thrill", so it ended up falling between two stools.
They would have been better spending it on two coasters, one family off the shelf, then a real thrill coaster over the north park spaces.
Icon is perfect for my old age is all I can say.
Closed season now two thirds over.
They would have been better spending it on two coasters, one family off the shelf, then a real thrill coaster over the north park spaces.
Icon is perfect for my old age is all I can say.
Closed season now two thirds over.
Rob
TS Team
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- Steel Vengeance
Icon could have been great (see Helix) but ultimately they messed up with the design and it's now a good coaster at best and okay a lot of the time. It's a real pity and it has probably set Blackpool Pleasure Beach back quite a bit, which is somewhat ironic.
Graeme
TS Member
The problem with Pleasure Beach in my eyes is that the whole place is tacky.
Yes I get the nostalgia and the old rides etc etc but I've never got it. I never will get it. The whole place needs modernisation. It's not a place you would go and enjoy walking around with your family. I know it's not supposed to be a "theme" park per se but it's just a complete mismatch. It's stuck in the 80's.
Like I've said before, I've never "got" Blackpool....think it's a northern thing.
Yes I get the nostalgia and the old rides etc etc but I've never got it. I never will get it. The whole place needs modernisation. It's not a place you would go and enjoy walking around with your family. I know it's not supposed to be a "theme" park per se but it's just a complete mismatch. It's stuck in the 80's.
Like I've said before, I've never "got" Blackpool....think it's a northern thing.
Plastic Person
TS Member
I think you might be right, although of course, BPB welcomed huge amounts of Southern visitors back in its eighties and nineties heyday.
Incidentally, I don't find the park tacky. It's not quite Liseberg in presentation, but I think it strikes a good balance these days. I don't miss many of the old arcades that have disappeared, and think the area around North Park/Noah's Ark, Icon and Nickelodeon Land is probably more pleasant than anything at Thorpe Park, for example. I notice a trend that people who began at Alton and then moved onto the Florida parks, or EP, don't seem to 'get' Blackpool. I was lucky enough to have a fairly varied theme park diet as a kid, so I have time for it all. I still can't figure out why BPB fans feel such a strong connection to PortAventura though, seaside locale aside...
BPB is so frustrating. I can't work out whether Icon was a failure of overthinking or ego, to be associated with a prestige brand like Mack, and what that means for the family. It's perfectly fine for what it is, but what it is isn't anywhere near enough for a park in as precarious of a situation as BPB. With respect to the heritage, I'm beginning to feel like a merger could work and might be a viable option. However, ego is once again a factor. Either way, I can't imagine them ever selling. The work Amanda has done with the hotels is stellar, and she obviously has a genetic passion for the industry, but I think rescinding a little control of the park to somebody else could really work for a brighter company. Despite the increases in capita per head, etc. it feels like they're heading towards bleak times once again, even with the books balanced.
The closure of Valhalla, a major ride and a serious crowdpleaser, is very unfortunate. I understand that it was built in a different time under a different model of income, whereas now BPB have to work towards sustainability, but it still feels ominous to lose a headlining attraction less than two decades old, even if only temporarily. Well, hopefully only temporarily.
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BPB has been chipping away at improving the presentation of the park, and I would argue t looks the tidiest it has ever looked. The tattiest bits now are the old woodies.
The hotel development and (like it or not) car park charge hikes address places money was walking away from the park. The obvious thing to address is dining. Loads of people go to the Velvet Coaster, so BPB should be building something equivalent. I bet they could get Planning permission to build a big dining pub over the miniature golf place they own by the main gate. That location would do well selling food and drink, maybe as something more like a Toby Carvery franchise (BPB owned), as the Velvet Coaster can get a little lairey for the family crowd.
The hotel development and (like it or not) car park charge hikes address places money was walking away from the park. The obvious thing to address is dining. Loads of people go to the Velvet Coaster, so BPB should be building something equivalent. I bet they could get Planning permission to build a big dining pub over the miniature golf place they own by the main gate. That location would do well selling food and drink, maybe as something more like a Toby Carvery franchise (BPB owned), as the Velvet Coaster can get a little lairey for the family crowd.
MakoMania
TS Member
Blackpool Pleasure Beach's single biggest issue in attracting a new generation of visitors, particularly those from the midlands and the south, is its name. I've said this for years, when I ask people who have never been to the park "do you want to go to Blackpool Pleasure Beach?" they usually go "no it'll be small and rubbish", not realising that it is a major theme park. Once I explain the scale of the place people are usually much more interested. The problem is "Pleasure Beach". It doesn't carry good connotations, it makes people think of tacky, small, unsafe, unpleasant and quite frankly boring fairground complexes. This is particularly true of the family market, the exact market that the park has been pivoting towards in the last decade.
Yes there are other issues at play, opening times is another example, but I think the name is a fundamental problem and obstacle for the park in breaking through to a new audience beyond the North of England. I would be fascinated to see some market research carried out on this topic amongst people unfamiliar with the park.
Yes there are other issues at play, opening times is another example, but I think the name is a fundamental problem and obstacle for the park in breaking through to a new audience beyond the North of England. I would be fascinated to see some market research carried out on this topic amongst people unfamiliar with the park.
venny
TS Member
Some interesting theories here. I have to say a couple of things:
- presentations at Pleasure Beach aren’t perfect, but they have improved in quite a few areas. I’d now say that BPB has a better presented product, with cleanliness certainly being better than most of the Merlin parks I’ve visited in the last year.
- the name Pleasure Beach has been around for 125 years, so I can’t see that having too much of an impact on perceptions of the place - at least no more so than it always has.
- food service is patchy, but there’s no point BPB trying to compete with Wetherspoons. Their clientele are visiting because of brand recognition, reliability, value and choice. BPB can’t deliver on all those things in the same way, although I have to say that food at BPB is actually better than most make out. Coasters is very reliable, decent quality and value, it’s just people (even the park’s fans) gravitate to Wetherspoons.
- presentations at Pleasure Beach aren’t perfect, but they have improved in quite a few areas. I’d now say that BPB has a better presented product, with cleanliness certainly being better than most of the Merlin parks I’ve visited in the last year.
- the name Pleasure Beach has been around for 125 years, so I can’t see that having too much of an impact on perceptions of the place - at least no more so than it always has.
- food service is patchy, but there’s no point BPB trying to compete with Wetherspoons. Their clientele are visiting because of brand recognition, reliability, value and choice. BPB can’t deliver on all those things in the same way, although I have to say that food at BPB is actually better than most make out. Coasters is very reliable, decent quality and value, it’s just people (even the park’s fans) gravitate to Wetherspoons.
venny
TS Member
Just the usual winter closure though Rob?
Sam
TS Member
I think we're probably underestimating how much of an effect half the park's visitors defecting to Spoons at lunchtime has had on the bottom line. F&B is where the margins are - the rides are loss leaders.
I also think the failure of Icon is less to do with the marketing and more that's it just rubbish.
I also think the failure of Icon is less to do with the marketing and more that's it just rubbish.
Yes, usual winter closure.
But sad winter closure.
Going up two floors in that glass lift is the nearest us old 'uns get to a thrill ride in winter.
Matt N
TS Member
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- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
In terms of Icon, I think the key reason why it failed was probably in its marketing. I live in the South West of England (admittedly a good 3.5-4 hours from Blackpool), and I did not see one advert for Icon. If it wasn't for the fact that I followed coaster forums, I wouldn't even have known Blackpool was building a new £16m ride. I did see one advert for BPB in 2018, and it didn't even mention Icon once (it was more of a general park promo). By comparison, Wicker Man at Alton Towers was practically everywhere in 2018; Merlin plastered it all over national TV & social media, as well as on things like cereal boxes and soap bottles. I even saw quite a bit for The Walking Dead at Thorpe Park, but nothing for Icon.
I don't think the ride itself was necessarily the reason the marketing failed, either, because Wicker Man didn't really show any sort of USP during its marketing, either. Admittedly, they showed the statue many times, but they didn't put in any sort of major line or statistic to market it. Rides like Nemesis were also massively successful without a major USP in their marketing. I have a feeling that if Icon had been marketed Merlin-style, people would have been flocking to Blackpool in their droves.
In terms of whether the ride experience itself was successful, I'd say that it definitely delivered the modern thrill that Blackpool Pleasure Beach needed, and I personally absolutely adore the ride (my personal favourite UK coaster!), but I must admit that I was expecting more in terms of its overall critical acclaim among enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike. When it was being built, I was personally expecting it to top Nemesis as the new consensus favourite in the UK (obviously everyone has a different favourite UK coaster, but Nemesis is the one that I see at the top of the most lists by some distance.) and be hailed as one of the top coasters in Europe for years to come, like how Helix is.
However, while there was quite a lot of hype when the ride opened, this seems to have evaporated massively. I most certainly seem to be in a minority in having the ride as my top UK coaster these days; quite a few enthusiasts seem to be very apathetic towards it, and in terms of non-enthusiasts, my parents are also both very apathetic towards it and don't get why I like it so much. Ironically, when Icon & Wicker Man we're being constructed, everyone was saying that hype for Wicker Man would evaporate after the opening months and Icon would be the long-term favourite, but I'd almost say that the polar opposite was true, as I still see mostly rave reviews for Wicker Man nearly 2 years on, whereas most seem profoundly disappointed in Icon these days.
On the subject of Icon, is it true that the park runs it at 10mph lower than the design speed? Only asking because I remember someone saying when the ride was built that it was designed by Mack to run at 100km/h (approx 62.1mph), but Blackpool runs the first launch at 80km/h (approx 49.7mph) and the second launch at 85km/h (approx 52.8mph), which is the minimum speed needed for the ride to clear the course. If this is true, then I can't imagine how insanely wonderful it would be at 62mph, as I already adore it at its current speed, despite how uncommon of an opinion that seems to be!
I don't think the ride itself was necessarily the reason the marketing failed, either, because Wicker Man didn't really show any sort of USP during its marketing, either. Admittedly, they showed the statue many times, but they didn't put in any sort of major line or statistic to market it. Rides like Nemesis were also massively successful without a major USP in their marketing. I have a feeling that if Icon had been marketed Merlin-style, people would have been flocking to Blackpool in their droves.
In terms of whether the ride experience itself was successful, I'd say that it definitely delivered the modern thrill that Blackpool Pleasure Beach needed, and I personally absolutely adore the ride (my personal favourite UK coaster!), but I must admit that I was expecting more in terms of its overall critical acclaim among enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike. When it was being built, I was personally expecting it to top Nemesis as the new consensus favourite in the UK (obviously everyone has a different favourite UK coaster, but Nemesis is the one that I see at the top of the most lists by some distance.) and be hailed as one of the top coasters in Europe for years to come, like how Helix is.
However, while there was quite a lot of hype when the ride opened, this seems to have evaporated massively. I most certainly seem to be in a minority in having the ride as my top UK coaster these days; quite a few enthusiasts seem to be very apathetic towards it, and in terms of non-enthusiasts, my parents are also both very apathetic towards it and don't get why I like it so much. Ironically, when Icon & Wicker Man we're being constructed, everyone was saying that hype for Wicker Man would evaporate after the opening months and Icon would be the long-term favourite, but I'd almost say that the polar opposite was true, as I still see mostly rave reviews for Wicker Man nearly 2 years on, whereas most seem profoundly disappointed in Icon these days.
On the subject of Icon, is it true that the park runs it at 10mph lower than the design speed? Only asking because I remember someone saying when the ride was built that it was designed by Mack to run at 100km/h (approx 62.1mph), but Blackpool runs the first launch at 80km/h (approx 49.7mph) and the second launch at 85km/h (approx 52.8mph), which is the minimum speed needed for the ride to clear the course. If this is true, then I can't imagine how insanely wonderful it would be at 62mph, as I already adore it at its current speed, despite how uncommon of an opinion that seems to be!
ScottishChris
TS Member
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The Pleasure Beach is by far my favourite UK park - it is honest, has a good range of rides and is really easy to get around. I also love the fact that it is in the town.
The numbers are concerning. Icon is a very good coaster, but you are all correct that the marketing was really, really poor. I remember seeing all the YouTube videos of enthusiasts coming of the coaster stating "Potentially my UK number 1 coaster" - they should have got those clips on TV and used that as the marketing. It is 100% my second favourite UK coaster right behind Nemesis.
The numbers are concerning. Icon is a very good coaster, but you are all correct that the marketing was really, really poor. I remember seeing all the YouTube videos of enthusiasts coming of the coaster stating "Potentially my UK number 1 coaster" - they should have got those clips on TV and used that as the marketing. It is 100% my second favourite UK coaster right behind Nemesis.
venny
TS Member
There’s going to be some design tolerance in that launch, but there’s no way it could run safely 10mph faster with passengers. The forces in some parts of the train would just not work. Can you imagine going over the first airtime hill in the back seat 10mph faster?
As for Icon’s failure, I’m pretty convinced that it’s not the ride itself which has driven the failure. As a ride Icon is at least as good and unique as Wickerman.
The popular opinion of marketing definitely has some truth, but it cannot be the whole story. Remember, attendance actually decreased in a year with a major new ride. That is extraordinary and no matter how bad the marketing was, it can’t have actively put people off visiting.
As for Icon’s failure, I’m pretty convinced that it’s not the ride itself which has driven the failure. As a ride Icon is at least as good and unique as Wickerman.
The popular opinion of marketing definitely has some truth, but it cannot be the whole story. Remember, attendance actually decreased in a year with a major new ride. That is extraordinary and no matter how bad the marketing was, it can’t have actively put people off visiting.
Matt N
TS Member
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- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
I suppose a 10mph boost would be roughly 20% faster, so in theory that would also increase forces by roughly 20%. If Pleasure Beach's statistics of 4.3G in positives and -1.2G in negatives are good benchmarks to use, then the positive g-forces would be approximately 5.2G (the same as a Vekoma Boomerang, apparently), and negatives would be approximately -1.4G, which would be the strongest negatives in the country, but nowhere near the strongest in the world. I've heard of multiple coasters with negative g-forces as high as -2G (I've heard this statistic bounded around for Skyrush, Steel Vengeance and DC Rivals, amongst others. One hill on El Toro even pulls -2.2G, apparently!). 5.2G admittedly sounds a little too forceful for a Mack, but I think -1.4G sounds plausible if other coasters in the world hit -2G.
Don't quote me on the exact statistics, but I've definitely heard rumblings in various places online that Icon is run at a speed somewhat below the one that it was designed to run at.
In other news, Pleasure Beach Experience have posted this video that I think is a really interesting watch; it discusses the next 10 years at BPB:
Scott and the others certainly have some interesting ideas, and some that I could definitely see happening and would like to happen. For example, I could definitely see them removing Ice Blast (it was OK, but I didn't think it was as good as Dr Doom at IOA), and as controversial as this opinion might be, I also think that reverting fully to pay-one-price would be a good move. A lot of people these days use wristbands anyway, and a full-on POP model would save them a lot of money in staffing costs on rides, printing wristbands etc. It might even permit them to run offers like Merlin run and gain some new custom!
Don't quote me on the exact statistics, but I've definitely heard rumblings in various places online that Icon is run at a speed somewhat below the one that it was designed to run at.
In other news, Pleasure Beach Experience have posted this video that I think is a really interesting watch; it discusses the next 10 years at BPB:
Scott and the others certainly have some interesting ideas, and some that I could definitely see happening and would like to happen. For example, I could definitely see them removing Ice Blast (it was OK, but I didn't think it was as good as Dr Doom at IOA), and as controversial as this opinion might be, I also think that reverting fully to pay-one-price would be a good move. A lot of people these days use wristbands anyway, and a full-on POP model would save them a lot of money in staffing costs on rides, printing wristbands etc. It might even permit them to run offers like Merlin run and gain some new custom!
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