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It’s fair to say that Sub Terra and Derren Brown’s Ghost Train weren’t entirely successful. Sub Terra only lasted a few years and Derren Brown’s Ghost Train was substantially changed after a year. Neither of these things scream success.
It is worth saying though that I don’t think you can judge that much about how popular an attraction is from whether attendance goes up or down that year. Disney and Universal build identical attractions at different locations, and often there will be quite different effects at each park. There might be a significant decline in attendance when a ride opens at one park, and then an identical ride opens at a different park and there’s a significant increase in attendance.
I suppose you could argue that one might have been marketed better, that the IP might resonate more with one culture, or one might have been ‘needed’ more. But it might also show that there’s a lot of other factors affecting attendance.
Ratatouille at the Disney Studios in Paris reportedly cost 200 million euros. It opened in June 2014. According to the Themed Entertainment Association the park saw a 4.7% drop in attendance that year.
https://www.teaconnect.org/images/files/TEA_104_611784_150604.pdf
The following year attendance rose, but it was still lower than it had been before Ratatouille. None of this has put them off cloning it in Epcot.
Clearly a higher quality attraction is more likely to raise attendance than a lower quality attraction. In the long run, the more popular a park’s rides are, the more likely people are to visit. But I don’t think a single year’s attendance is a great indicator of how successful a ride has been.
It is worth saying though that I don’t think you can judge that much about how popular an attraction is from whether attendance goes up or down that year. Disney and Universal build identical attractions at different locations, and often there will be quite different effects at each park. There might be a significant decline in attendance when a ride opens at one park, and then an identical ride opens at a different park and there’s a significant increase in attendance.
I suppose you could argue that one might have been marketed better, that the IP might resonate more with one culture, or one might have been ‘needed’ more. But it might also show that there’s a lot of other factors affecting attendance.
Ratatouille at the Disney Studios in Paris reportedly cost 200 million euros. It opened in June 2014. According to the Themed Entertainment Association the park saw a 4.7% drop in attendance that year.
https://www.teaconnect.org/images/files/TEA_104_611784_150604.pdf
The following year attendance rose, but it was still lower than it had been before Ratatouille. None of this has put them off cloning it in Epcot.
Clearly a higher quality attraction is more likely to raise attendance than a lower quality attraction. In the long run, the more popular a park’s rides are, the more likely people are to visit. But I don’t think a single year’s attendance is a great indicator of how successful a ride has been.
pluk
TS Member
An actually good dark ride will bring in the guests, especially in the social media age word of mouth can be more valuable an impactful than any clever and expensive marketing campaign.
You've got to build an actually good dark ride first, and there in lies Merlins problem. They are still building everything to please marketers, not guests.
I still maintain a decent sized ride utilising the Spiderman ride system is within a reasonable budget and would absolutely blow the uk public away. The astronomical costs of Spiderman itself are always thrown about as the prohibitive factor, but that included the R&D to do it from scratch. It is quite old and off the shelf technology now.
You've got to build an actually good dark ride first, and there in lies Merlins problem. They are still building everything to please marketers, not guests.
I still maintain a decent sized ride utilising the Spiderman ride system is within a reasonable budget and would absolutely blow the uk public away. The astronomical costs of Spiderman itself are always thrown about as the prohibitive factor, but that included the R&D to do it from scratch. It is quite old and off the shelf technology now.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
Isn’t the Spider-Man ride system, or at least something similar, what the Justice League rides at Six Flags parks use? If Six Flags can afford it, then I think Merlin definitely could; Thorpe were even said to be considering one at one stage, so it’s definitely not an idea that’s passed them by!
Dark rides work and they work really well..... provided they have the investment at the start and for the future.
Duel is a good ride which is let down by a lack of budget for a decent amount of maintenance and updates each year. It’s in a very sorry state the past two years in particular.
Duel is a good ride which is let down by a lack of budget for a decent amount of maintenance and updates each year. It’s in a very sorry state the past two years in particular.
ChristmasPud
TS Member
Does it have to be ‘world class’ though to be good? Im a big believer in just doing something simple but doing it really well, than it needing to be a Universal Studios level ride. Derren Brown tried that and failed, even when it did have serious bucks spent on it
A Toyland Tours style ride I think is really missing now, not for a huge attendance boost but more to make the family offering feel way more substantial and soak up guests. Would benefit the park so much more in the long run. I wouldnt call Toyland Tours a world class ride though, more just a really good, big dark ride
This is starting to go a bit off topic from Duel, but it’s an interesting discussion, so I’m going to roll with it.
We’ve certainly seen more dark rides recently than water rides. When was the last time a UK park built a major water ride? We had the Battle Galleons in 2008, so hardly recent, and I don’t really class Battle Galleons as a major ride, at least by Alton Tower’s standards. The year before we had the Viking River Splash at Legoland. That probably did count as a major water ride, but we’re talking 14 years ago. Some of the Lego models on it are impressive, but as a whole package I thought it was very mediocre. The Lost River in 2004 was maybe the last decent water ride built in the UK.
We’ve got other topics lamenting the lack of flat rides and live entertainment. By contrast we’ve had several dark rides at Legoland Windsor, plus Derren Brown’s Ghost Train and various re-themes, including Wallace and Gromit’s Thrill-O-Matic and The Gruffalo.
We haven’t had more dark rides, largely because there haven’t been very many major rides. A lot of UK parks have closed, and those that haven’t have been cutting back on their investment. When they have been investing, it’s been a mixture of accommodation, themed children’s areas, roller coasters and dark rides.
We’ve certainly seen more dark rides recently than water rides. When was the last time a UK park built a major water ride? We had the Battle Galleons in 2008, so hardly recent, and I don’t really class Battle Galleons as a major ride, at least by Alton Tower’s standards. The year before we had the Viking River Splash at Legoland. That probably did count as a major water ride, but we’re talking 14 years ago. Some of the Lego models on it are impressive, but as a whole package I thought it was very mediocre. The Lost River in 2004 was maybe the last decent water ride built in the UK.
We’ve got other topics lamenting the lack of flat rides and live entertainment. By contrast we’ve had several dark rides at Legoland Windsor, plus Derren Brown’s Ghost Train and various re-themes, including Wallace and Gromit’s Thrill-O-Matic and The Gruffalo.
We haven’t had more dark rides, largely because there haven’t been very many major rides. A lot of UK parks have closed, and those that haven’t have been cutting back on their investment. When they have been investing, it’s been a mixture of accommodation, themed children’s areas, roller coasters and dark rides.
Islander
TS Member
And yet Ninjago, Haunted House Monster Party and now the new Legoland flying theatre have all been built since?
Plastic Person
TS Member
Legoland is a different proposition and division to Merlin's RTPs.
Islander
TS Member
Well yes, but you claimed that “Merlin” got their hand burnt, not specifically the RTP division.
Always amuses me how people just lump the whole of Merlin together, when in fact many parts of it operate semi-autonomously
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Plastic Person
TS Member
Alsty
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala
It was me that claimed it and I still stand by it. I think Merlin are scared of big dark ride investments, but I think @AT86 is also right that family dark rides seem to be lower risk and are proving successful.
Yes the parks operate semi-autonomously but ultimately the money comes from the Merlin group. I am sure they get some say in how their money is spent.
Yes the parks operate semi-autonomously but ultimately the money comes from the Merlin group. I am sure they get some say in how their money is spent.
jon81uk
TS Member
but I think it is also true that the Legoland division is operated separately from the theme park division and the midways are reasonably separate again.
djtruefitt
TS Team
I think generally family dark rides will work well, Legoland shouldn’t have any problem, if a ride is indoor or outside families will go and do them, as they know they’ll be suitable for their kids, the issue is when the dark ride becomes a bit of a mystery, you will find people might not be so willing to do it, eg sub terra. I guess unless it’s got some big IP behind it, especially when it’s aimed at older people.
Ben
TS Founding Member
- Favourite Ride
- Your Dad
I think the biggest issue is that beyond family dark rides no-one in Merlin seems to know how to handle one.
Theres some mad desperation to either copy an existing ride (which is beyond their skill) or make something so complex it has the whole "worlds first" or advancement to try and hit some unique marketing pull. Theres clearly some creativity behind the rides, and marketing seem to have some huge pull... but there appears to be no one representing the park operations angle.
Example Alton:
Creative - Dark ride, full of effects, loads of staff / "actors", based on a Disney retired ride
Marketing - base it on our strongest existing coaster brand, great cohesiveness
Park Ops - who is budgeting the loads of staff?
Example Thorpe:
Creative - Tech heavy, story based, visually good, needs loads of staff
Marketing - Get a really unique IP with it, celeb magician on board
Park Ops - but the tech maintenance and staffing budgets?
The parks get these headline attractions for a season then are left with a headache of where to fund the rest of it. Its as if there is no one practical giving any input.
Look at Hex as an example of a well loved and highly regarded dark ride. Usually 1 in batch, 2 in ride, 1 op. 4 staff to run; equal to Nemesis.
Dual has onload, op, offload. 3.
Sub Terra had about 8. Christ knows for DBGT, loads.
They need to find a sensible ride that isn't reliant on staffing. Its not that difficult.
Theres some mad desperation to either copy an existing ride (which is beyond their skill) or make something so complex it has the whole "worlds first" or advancement to try and hit some unique marketing pull. Theres clearly some creativity behind the rides, and marketing seem to have some huge pull... but there appears to be no one representing the park operations angle.
Example Alton:
Creative - Dark ride, full of effects, loads of staff / "actors", based on a Disney retired ride
Marketing - base it on our strongest existing coaster brand, great cohesiveness
Example Thorpe:
Creative - Tech heavy, story based, visually good, needs loads of staff
Marketing - Get a really unique IP with it, celeb magician on board
The parks get these headline attractions for a season then are left with a headache of where to fund the rest of it. Its as if there is no one practical giving any input.
Look at Hex as an example of a well loved and highly regarded dark ride. Usually 1 in batch, 2 in ride, 1 op. 4 staff to run; equal to Nemesis.
Dual has onload, op, offload. 3.
Sub Terra had about 8. Christ knows for DBGT, loads.
They need to find a sensible ride that isn't reliant on staffing. Its not that difficult.
djtruefitt
TS Team
It’s the same with the majority of Merlins newer rides, they are all staff heavy, often when they don’t need to be.
Galactica, DBGT, swarm, TH13TEEN, The Smiler, Sun Terra, Wicker Man, Walking Dead. Etc. When they opened they all required a lot of staff, some have had staffing cut since now effecting the rides throughput or experience such as baggage on TH13TEEN or The Smiler, some have just gone completely, such as sub terra and Galactica.
Some of these rides could easily have been created to run with less staff, but for whatever reason it’s not in their initial design brief to even think about staffing.
Sub Terra could have been created with less staff and maybe the ride could still be operating, but the way it’s designed is naturally staff heavy.
Galactica, DBGT, swarm, TH13TEEN, The Smiler, Sun Terra, Wicker Man, Walking Dead. Etc. When they opened they all required a lot of staff, some have had staffing cut since now effecting the rides throughput or experience such as baggage on TH13TEEN or The Smiler, some have just gone completely, such as sub terra and Galactica.
Some of these rides could easily have been created to run with less staff, but for whatever reason it’s not in their initial design brief to even think about staffing.
Sub Terra could have been created with less staff and maybe the ride could still be operating, but the way it’s designed is naturally staff heavy.
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