EU Referendum

[TheMan]

So, after our brave exalted leader traipsed off around the EU, begging our lessers for a deal that he could bring home, he's come up with basically, well, nothing.

Months ago, people who actually know about this stuff, were explaining it would be one giant ruse where he galloped off, having fake arguments, then coming back like WHOO HOO I have got us a 10p mix & a we can take a few less Johnny Foreigners in!!

Cue the lining up of his Cabinet, with the alleged offer of promotions according to some meedja, behind him to clap and laud his Royal Public Relations 5th cousin to the Queen highness.

Now, we shall await the usual throwing into the ring of the dead cat by the newly to-be-knighted Lynton Crosby & the fait accompli is complete.

Meanwhile, all actual proper discussions about why the EU is actually an undemocratic shambles & behemoth will be swept under the carpet because Mr Polish can't get tax credits, which are going anyway, replaced by the equally shambolic UC system, for four years - and we won't have an "ever closer union"...

Oh joy.

And equally as brilliantly, we have Farage shouting off about why we should leave, which are all the reasons that are utter nonsense anyway, and Labour/Lib Dems basically writing love notes to the EU.

I decided to speak to people who really understood the EU from a practical perspective. Not racists, bigots, or populist morons. They had credible, long, complicated but sensible reasoning on leaving, that involve the UK being at the forefront of actually CREATING legislation & industry, rather than getting it handed down to them at EU level. The places we can really hold influence, but now we share it with other EU countries.

The true debate, about real progress, being at the forefront of the decisions made globally etc has not even been mentioned, in favour of populist claptrap.

Europe brings good things, yes, they don't suddenly disappear.

My biggest concern however, and that shared by #Brexit friends of mine, even those on the "right" are getting out of the EU and essentially handing unbridled power to Cameron and that rotten insidious sewer that is WestMonster.

As an issue that divides right/left, for reasons ranging from immigration, to the Greece debacle, my vote will be based on none of that, but what about you?

I will likely be voting OUT (subject to change).

 

[DiogoJ42]

Doesn't matter what we vote for, there is no legal obligation to go with the result.

 

[Dar]

Let's isolate ourselves on our little island in a world-wide economy! Yeah! Progress!

 

[TheMan]

Let's isolate ourselves on our little island in a world-wide economy! Yeah! Progress!

That's rubbish. We have given up our seats on the main global regulating bodies to accept an inferior watered down position within the EU, where these rules are passed down to us, rather than influencing them or actually making them.

These are things that regulate pretty much everything we do & buy, and decide agreed global standards for products to ensure basically, you can buy things anywhere that work with anything.

You think the EU regulates these things globally? No. The EU has a place at these tables, of which we have a small influence.

The idea we'd be economically isolated is one of the big misnomers, the only good reason to stay in the EU are the more social based policies which have had a positive effect on working standards etc. Those I understand.

Leaving for border control/migration is utter tripe & staying so we won't become "isolated" is also just another myth.

Doesn't matter what we vote for, there is no legal obligation to go with the result.

It would also be rather amusing to try and watch Cameron floundering around with the unbelievably complex leaving negotiations - which would result in further referendums potentially. I think if I recall it would take about 2 years to negotiate, then that could be put to another referendum, before the actual process of leaving which again I think is about another 2 further years.

This is why this negotiation is such a farce. He could barely manage this! A full scale exit negotiation would absolutely sink him.

 

[Dar]

OK, I admit that was a facetious reply, I was in a rush and wanted to look cool.

But I've yet to see a compelling argument to change the status quo. That doesn't mean I don't think we should be trying to change and re-negotiate some of the..."sillier" resolutions and clauses but I do think outright leaving is not a very good idea.

Also, "Brexit" is a **** term that needs to disappear into the jungles of deepest Africa with the person that coined it.

 

[MattyH]

I'll vote to stay in, because I believe although things are poop with us in the EU they'd be a whole lot pooper without us in it.

 

[TheMan]

OK, I admit that was a facetious reply, I was in a rush and wanted to look cool.

But I've yet to see a compelling argument to change the status quo. That doesn't mean I don't think we should be trying to change and re-negotiate some of the..."sillier" resolutions and clauses but I do think outright leaving is not a very good idea.

Also, "Brexit" is a **** term that needs to disappear into the jungles of deepest Africa with the person that coined it.

Ignore the audience hahaha, but this gives a good lowdown about how you would have to go about leaving:



This illustrates just some of what you don't hear discussed in the news/by politicians etc.

Think about Cameron's not moving toward "ever closer union" and a few benefits exemptions, vs what Richard is speaking of about the huge complexity.

If nothing else, it will show you just what a sham this whole thing has been negotiation wise.

I'll vote to stay in, because I believe although things are **** with us in the EU they'd be a whole lot ****ter without us in it.

Even staunch exit supporters (but those in it for democracy, not bigotry) are concerned by this Matty.

 

[Martin]

I have no idea, and don't know if I'll be able to decide, I might just spoil the ballot or not turn up. I literally can not see an upside either way.

I used to be vaguely in the in camp, although never a fan of it either, but then Greece happened, then Portugal happened, and now there's no way I can support the EU as it is. But on the other hand, allowing the Tories free reign? Don't think there's anything more scary that that.

It's unfortunate that as many problems as the EU has, the main voices in the out campaign are more interested in leaving over bigotry and Little Englander sort of views, rather than the genuine problems the EU is causing for democracy and economics.

 

[bluesonichd]

Out Out Out, we need to make the British Empire Great again...
no bowing down and rolling over showing our soft underbelly to the EU bureaucrats.
Stand on our own,
Plant our Flags across the globe again
We are Great Briton
We are Great on our own
Long live the British Empire

 

[TheMan]

But on the other hand, allowing the Tories free reign? Don't think there's anything more scary that that.
.

Someone I know, very in the "out" campaign, wrote about exactly this. Not the out campaign that's based on bigotry, racism etc, but the one based on wanting more democracy. It does exist lol.

It's unfortunate that as many problems as the EU has, the main voices in the out campaign are more interested in leaving over bigotry and Little Englander sort of views, rather than the genuine problems the EU is causing for democracy and economics.

Yes, and the sensible exit campaigners are enraged this nonsense is running the debate as they know it's something that doesn't come around often.

The style of the debate and content is utterly absurd. It's a really key decision and as usual has been boiled down to nonsense debate.

The social in, is beneficial, the influential out, is also beneficial. It's a hard call away from imperialism, racism, xenophobia etc - all of which in real terms needed to be remotely discussed as they're not relevant to a professional and proper campaign.

 

[Martin]

In the EU elections last year, a lot of people voted UKIP out of not thinking there were any other anti-EU parties, even though they thoroughly disagree with everything else UKIP stand for, when there are actually several anti-EU parties from across the spectrum.

The wheels may fall off the out campaign, it is a shambles, but then so was the no camp in the Scottish referendum and that didn't stop them winning, so who knows.

 

[TheMan]

In the EU elections last year, a lot of people voted UKIP out of not thinking there were any other anti-EU parties, even though they thoroughly disagree with everything else UKIP stand for, when there are actually several anti-EU parties from across the spectrum.

The wheels may fall off the out campaign, it is a shambles, but then so was the no camp in the Scottish referendum and that didn't stop them winning, so who knows.

I saw an interesting video on that the other day that suggested "interesting" things about the no vote...

Plus the BBC, and Lab/Libs etc siding with Cameron - which also resulted in the mass rebuke to Labour at the GE.

You wonder what planet these politicians are on sometimes. They're just like some big freaking cartel.

The more I learn about it the more I loathe it really.

 

[Martin]

That's an interesting point with Labour. They're finished in Scotland now for siding with the Tories in the referendum. I think the major parties this time will be a lot less unified with it and may even not outwardly have particularly strong views.

There's obviously a big split in the Tory party, the Lib Dems have no opinions of their own and Labour is at war with itself, so whatever Corbyn says, the right of his party will come out with the opposite, plus he'll not want to make the mistake they did in Scotland so if they do come out strongly in either camp, they'll probably do it separately, so they aren't associated with rivals, which one one hand will likely restore some credibility but on the other may harm their chosen side by making it look incoherent.

 

[Dar]

I know a few people that voted UKIP at the local and european elections purely as a protest vote to try to get the government to listen.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I'm sure there must be multiple Yes Prime Minister clips that could be posted for both sides of this argument...

 

[Tom]

This whole 'renegotiation' has been a charade, and whether you're on the leave or remain camp, you'd be right to feel insulted by what Cameron is claiming.

I think preventing the government having more powers is reason enough to vote to remain.

 

[BarryZola]

At first I was undecided. Then I was leaning heavily towards voting to stay IN. Then I was a bit undecided. Now, I've made my mind up that I'm definitely (unless anything major changes in our circumstances) voting OUT. I think it's worth the 'potential' problems with trade to start living by our own laws (more or less) again. Could it go t**s up? Maybe. I feel we're getting a crappy end of this EU stick though and I feel it's time to risk it and live with the consequences. Just my brief personal feelings on things.

 

[TheMan]

At first I was undecided. Then I was leaning heavily towards voting to stay IN. Then I was a bit undecided. Now, I've made my mind up that I'm definitely (unless anything major changes in our circumstances) voting OUT. I think it's worth the 'potential' problems with trade to start living by our own laws (more or less) again. Could it go t**s up? Maybe. I feel we're getting a crappy end of this EU stick though and I feel it's time to risk it and live with the consequences. Just my brief personal feelings on things.

There won't be problems IMO with trade, there will be negotiations to do for sure.

The biggest problem is, we'd have Gidiot and Camoron doing the bloody negotiations.

That's a reason to be worried, a BIG reason, Gidiot was a towel folder and Camoron's a trumped up PR guy. There's no substance. Even the staunch "outers" I know (which aren't kippers etc, and actually know things lol) are concerned by this & leaving Cam with his whole hands on our "democracy".

Consider the "border changes" that have been made, and the electoral register changes put through a whole year ahead of when was advised, that basically killed the student vote etc.

He's a devious SoaB.

 

[Dar]

I think there's a genuine risk of Europe being as difficult and spiteful as possible in any negotiations that become necessary if the UK leaves.

 

[TheMan]

I think there's a genuine risk of Europe being as difficult and spiteful as possible in any negotiations that become necessary if the UK leaves.

I think so too, & given who would be in charge of negotiations.

Dear Wardley.

With someone else in charge I'd be an emphatic exit.