Nemesis: General Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skyscraper, 26th Oct 2019.

  1. Matt.GC

    Matt.GC TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Likes Received:
    5,086
    It's not controversial to not be a fan of Nemesis. Loads of people aren't. I went through a phase where I didn't ride it much and spent all my time lapping up the newer coasters dozens of times. But I always find myself coming back to Nemesis when the dust settles. I suppose after how long it's been there, I became acclimatised to it. I got so used to its ride experience I took it for granted. Nemesis is like good old faithful, it's just always there doing what it does. It's not modern anymore, doesn't have the latest gimmick and it's natural that people would want to invest energy in experiencing things they haven't tried before or are new to them.

    I would counter however that it is still very popular for a coaster of its age. It has an excellent throughput and churns out more guests than it appears to. Compare that to something like Corkscrew in its latter years. Look at it like this, if it only opened this season I bet you it would be topping most people's lists, but this thing opened 27 years ago!

    Well imagine such a thing opening in 1994. Name your favourite coaster from any park in the world and I bet you it didn't exist in 1994. Building a coaster in a giant pit full of "blood" that suspends riders under the track and inverts? Was absolutely insane back then.

    That's why I used the 94 Florida trip as an example. Back then Disney were as good as they ever were with theming, but no Animal Kingdom so no Expedition Everest, no RNR in studios, no Space Mountain or RNR over in DLP. No Islands of Adventure, no Hagrids over at Studios. Sea World, no Mako, Kraken, Manta. At Busch, Kumba was the shiny new draw dropping ride, following that Python and Scorpion were the main crowd pleasers as those types of coasters were in many parks back then including Towers. No Sheikra, Cheetah Hunt or Montu. You didn't need to travel across the Atlantic or out to Europe to have a taste of a world class, heavily themed/landscaped experience on the latest high tech coaster you just had to drive to Staffordshire.

    Same for many other parks worldwide, especially Europe where many of the now revered parks were nothing like they are today. Full of Vekomas, Schwarzkopfs and Arrows etc on flat pieces of land - they were the headliners in most worldwide parks. Six Flags Batman the Ride was a game changer and where JW got the inspiration from. Took the brand new revered hardware, made a better layout and spent half the budget putting it into a giant pit with blood waterfalls running down and turned the station into a monster. If anyone suggested that to the Merlin board these days a button under the desk would be pressed and some men in white coats would appear and take you away.

    I'd be worried if people weren't flocking to the likes of the Smiler and Wickerman with how young those coasters are. The mates at School example proves that of course they won't be as excited for a coaster they've been seeing since they were little and their parents have ridden since they were their age. But take someone who's never visited before or who has never ridden it and I guarantee you it still impresses as a spectacle even after the rest of the world has long caught up.
     
    Steve74, jon81uk, MaxPower and 4 others like this.
  2. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    8,449
    Likes Received:
    7,140
    Location:
    Forest of Dean
    Favourite Ride:
    Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
    The problem I perhaps face is that I can only judge Nemesis as it is in the here & now, and how it compares to modern rides. I was not here in 1994 to ride Nemesis in pristine condition (I was -9 in 1994!), and I wasn’t here to judge it in context with the other things around at the time.

    I’m not going to deny that Nemesis was probably legendary at the time of its construction, and unlike anything anyone had seen before, but I myself might not have that same connection to it that many people older than me do.

    I don’t want it to be construed that I don’t like Nemesis, because I really do. It’s just that I don’t absolutely love it and hold it up on such a pedestal like most Alton Towers fans do; I go into it hoping to fall in love with it and understand why everyone holds it in such high regard against the newer stuff, but I often seem to be disappointed. My opinion is that it’s a great ride, but not quite up there with some of the other stuff I’ve done; it’s not quite a top 10 coaster for me, of the 79 coasters I’ve done (#13, if you want an exact spot).

    I also don’t want it to be construed that I rate stuff highly just because it’s new. Admittedly, I can understand why you might get that impression, given that my top 5 consists entirely of coasters built in the 2010s, and the rides are/were the newest coasters in their respective parks, but that says more about my coaster tastes than anything else, I think. My #6 is Oblivion, built in 1998, and even though Smiler was built in 2013, you have to delve well into the 30s to find that one! So what I’m basically trying to say is; I don’t personally rate coasters highly just because they’re new.

    To put it simply; I think Nemesis just isn’t the kind of coaster I typically rate really highly these days. I like my coasters to have some negative g’s in them as well, and to be quite fun & rerideable, while Nemesis only really focuses on those positive g’s without really offering much else. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I simply don’t think it’s the type of ride I personally rate highly.
     
    Last edited: 20th Aug 2021
    Matt.GC, Skyscraper and JAperson like this.
  3. JAperson

    JAperson TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    This is why I am so excited for them to do a massive refurbishment with a re-track. We'll get to see it at it's best.
     
    Skyscraper and Matt N like this.
  4. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    8,449
    Likes Received:
    7,140
    Location:
    Forest of Dean
    Favourite Ride:
    Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
    I appreciate that I posted my post above before I was done with it by accident (sorry about that!), so you didn’t see what I said later, but I’ll agree with you that I am looking forward to seeing what it’s like in a shiny, new state (of sorts)! I reckon a retrack that removed the headbanging could improve it slightly for me, and besides, it’d be nice to see Nemesis looking all fresh & new again!

    However, even if shiny & new, I’m unsure if Nemesis is the type of coaster that could be my absolute favourite ride. As I said in my above post, I like more fun, rerideable coasters with a bit of negative g-force thrown in myself, which isn’t really where Nemesis shines; Nemesis is more about those positive g’s. Which is through no fault of its own, might I add; the types of layouts that are popular today were somewhat of an alien concept in 1994!
     
    Skyscraper and JAperson like this.
  5. JAperson

    JAperson TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Nemesis @Matt N . I do hope when it's refurbished we'll see the ride as it was in the 90's and maybe it'll move up your rankings a bit but I appreciate it's not your sort of ride. For me even if nemesis isn't number one it'll always be the special one in the park. The story behind nemesis (I mean the story of nemesis' development not the backstory - which is great too!) really makes you appreciate the way John Wardley bought such an expensive and new concept to the UK theme park market making it incredibly competitive through the 90's.
     
    Matt N and Skyscraper like this.
  6. Matt.GC

    Matt.GC TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Likes Received:
    5,086
    Don't worry, I wasn't swiping at you. I can 100% understand why you wouldn't like it as much as many and you've articulated it well. You're also right that for a lot of us the wrong side of 30/40 nostalgia does play a massive part.

    I was simply raising why Nemesis was so important and painting a picture of just how ground breaking it was for its time and how important it is to the park. A coaster of its age to even be considered just "good" by modern standards is remarkable.

    It doesn't mean people aren't entitled to like other coasters in the park more, it's just that at the time it was one of the finest coasters in the world and Towers hasn't had a coaster anywhere near that stature since. It doesn't mean the newer additions aren't better to many, it's just that Nemesis was built with little compromise.

    Almost every coaster since has had many comprises made whereas many other parks worldwide carried on going down the high quality route. Air opened with a concrete tunnel and none of the planned theming in the ride area. Rita and Spinball pretty off the shelf and shoehorned in. Thirteen with its boring and unthemed outdoor section. Smiler poor build quality from a cheap manufacturer within a square concrete pit. Wickerman, ticks almost all the boxes the others don't, but short underwhelming layout.

    Wickerman aside, I suppose Nemesis is a little window into what many of us older folks are talking about in terms of the direction of the park in general.
     
  7. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    8,449
    Likes Received:
    7,140
    Location:
    Forest of Dean
    Favourite Ride:
    Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
    With regard to the bolded part in the second paragraph, I certainly agree! Many coasters, even other B&Ms, built in that era, are often brushed aside and forgotten about within their respective countries or even parks, so the fact that it's still so well-known among enthusiasts is definitely a testament to how well it was built in the first place, and I can't even begin to imagine what a big deal it must have been in 1994! Heck, even if I stay within the UK, it's arguably maintained popularity and iconic status to a far greater degree than the Big One and Shockwave, which it was pitted against in 1994; I for one certainly rank Nemesis a notable amount higher than either of those two (Nemesis is #13 for me, while Shockwave is #40 and Big One is #55; take from that what you will). Nemesis must certainly have been built very well for it to still maintain this level of relative quality against coasters nearly 30 years its junior, and it's a ride I certainly admire for the engineering and creativity of it!

    I may harp on about how Nemesis isn't a top 10 coaster for me or whatever, but to make it a little fairer, I'll compare it to coasters of a similar age or older. Overall, Nemesis is my #13 coaster out of 79 ridden. However, if you filter my count to everything built before 2000, Nemesis would be #3, behind only Oblivion (#6 overall, 1998) and Montu (#7 overall, 1996). If you filter again to coasters built in Nemesis' opening year of 1994 or earlier, Nemesis would be my top coaster, with only Busch Gardens Tampa's Kumba coming close, at my overall #15 spot. After that, though, the 5 closest competitors are BPB's Avalanche (#26), WDW's Space Mountain (#33), WDW's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad (#34), BPB's Nickelodeon Streak (#38) and BPB's Revolution (#39). If that doesn't prove how far ahead Nemesis was at the time, I don't know what does; even though Nemesis is not my favourite Alton Towers rollercoaster, I'll agree that it's probably Alton Towers' (and quite possibly the UK's, for that matter) strongest coaster relative to others built in the same era. Do you get what I mean?

    With regard to the fourth paragraph; why do you think these compromises were made, as opposed to continuing with the "no expense spared" approach, and do you think that Alton/the UK may have "topped" Nemesis by now had our parks continued with the same approach? I dare say that Nemesis could have been easily "topped" within the UK by now had the same design philosophy been reused in future investments; coasters abroad arguably prove that Nemesis is, by modern standards, quite a "beatable" rollercoaster, but we're yet to pull that feat off in the UK for whatever reason.
     
    Skyscraper likes this.
  8. andeyhart

    andeyhart TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    663
    Location:
    Essex
    Favourite Ride:
    Nemesis
    Reading back on this thread, there is A LOT of conjecture, much of which is being spoken as fact.

    We don't actually know there are any plans to refurbish the ride at all. We certainly don't know it'll be closed during next season. All of this started by a "source" (revealed by an enthusiast) saying it was mentioned in the future plans, and a lot of what iffing about John Wardley visiting the ride earlier this season for whatever reason.

    It is likely to get a refurb at some stage based on a, its age and b, the fact that other younger b&ms have already been refurbed. But having seen and ridden Nemesis a lot this season, I don't see how everyone seems to think its time is imminent. It definitely doesn't ride or look as if it's reached the end of its natural life and is in desperate need of refurbishment.

    Also, when (if) it does happen, I'm not convinced it'll be closed an entire season either. It is highly unlikely to be removed altogether.
     
  9. JAperson

    JAperson TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    I actually forgot about that so called source. I was just talking on the basis of the fact that it is at the age where it needs a refurbishment. I too don't think it'll need to be a whole session just likely a few months into the season. Sorry if I hadn't made my position clear.
     
    Skyscraper likes this.
  10. Skyscraper

    Skyscraper TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Favourite Ride:
    Nemesis
    We also don't know the scale of it; The site is tricky as it is surrounded by paths, so they might have to close most of Forbidden valley. Thinking about that, would that prevent the N:ST building from being used? There's speculation of it re-opening in time for Nemmy being closed for the refurb to account for the loss.

    We'll find out more closer to the time though, whenever it is. :)
     
  11. pluk

    pluk TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,925
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    Location:
    Essex
    Not fact. Conjecture.

    If it is continuously maintained, which will include elements of repair and replacement to track, supports, trains, systems etc there is no need for it ever to need a refurbishment as a whole. We don't know what the approach will be.
     
    jon81uk, Poisson, andeyhart and 4 others like this.
  12. JAperson

    JAperson TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    I apologise my grammar is terrible. What I should have said is there is a likely chance of the ride needing refurbishment in the next 5 years.
     
    Skyscraper likes this.
  13. rob666

    rob666 TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    5,277
    Likes Received:
    9,413
    Location:
    Lancashire
    There is a likely chance of the ride needing refurbishment every closed season.
     
    jon81uk likes this.
  14. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    8,449
    Likes Received:
    7,140
    Location:
    Forest of Dean
    Favourite Ride:
    Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
    I don’t think one can really use any cast-iron number of years to dictate when a ride’s end of life is, or even if there is a set “end of life” for a ride. It very much varies.

    For instance, Hulk was revamped after 16 years of year-round operation. Dragon Challenge was removed after 18, albeit I suspect that that removal may have been for reasons unrelated to the ride’s technical lifespan.

    However, there are many coasters older that are still operating without having had major work done; Kumba at Busch Gardens Tampa has operated year-round for 28 years without major work or removal being discussed (I know it’s only one year older, but given BGT is year-round, Kumba will have operated significantly more than Nemesis in its lifetime), and the world’s oldest tubular steel roller coaster, Matterhorn Bobsleds, is still going strong without major work despite having operated year-round for 62 years! The likes of Python at Efteling and more recently Shaman at Gardaland also operated for 30-40 years before needing major work, and both of their respective parks have longer operating seasons and higher visitor numbers than Alton.

    On the flip side, coasters like Drachen Fire and Son of Beast were removed before even hitting 10 years of age.

    My point is; we simply don’t know. Nemesis could have decades left in it for all we know.
     
    jon81uk and Skyscraper like this.
  15. Ethan

    Ethan TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    The reason it is talked about more with Nemesis is because of the terrain ans design of the ride. It is completely unique to other B&m inverts. Due to the nature of the ride, I imagine the supports suffer more pressure and thus will need work earlier in the rides life than other coasters
     
    Matt N and Skyscraper like this.
  16. Jb85

    Jb85 TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    1,291
    I can’t recall but you can still get to AIR directly from the sky ride without having to enter FV?

    Here’s thinking....

    We’ve seen NST activity
    Rumours of Nemesis refurb
    SW9 can’t be far away

    What happens if they were to close the whole of FV next season to make way for a refurb of these rides, the area as a whole and the start of SW9?

    Would make sense to me.... with the lot reopening 2023 season?
     
    Skyscraper likes this.
  17. Skyscraper

    Skyscraper TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Favourite Ride:
    Nemesis
    They probably could put a bypass route in to Galactica, as closing the whole of FV would impact the Roller Coaster Restaurant as well (only way to access it would be via the Galactica gate otherwise).
     
  18. Danscott22

    Danscott22 TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    1,245
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Location:
    Mansfield
    Favourite Ride:
    The Smiler
    What and have Galactica, Nemesis AND The Blade all closed for the season? There’s absolutely no chance.
     
    Skyscraper likes this.
  19. Skyscraper

    Skyscraper TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Favourite Ride:
    Nemesis
    Yeah I doubt it would be finaniciually viable, plus probably wouldn't be popular with guests.
    They could keep Galactica and the RCR open with a temporary bypass path though.
     
    Last edited: 22nd Aug 2021
  20. Ethan

    Ethan TowersStreet Member

    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    May as well keep the whole area shut. Who would travel all the way over to FV just to ride Galactica. If Nemesis wasn't open, I don't think I'd go on Galactica once in the season. The only reason I ride it fairly often is down to the fact its next to Nemesis so I may as well go on it while I'm there
     
    Matt.GC and Skyscraper like this.

Share This Page