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Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)

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MattyH said:
If a person is capable of walking up from the smiler exit to oblivions exit then It would be probable they could cope with Oblivions queue surely?

Nemesis queue when it's in the extension requires a bit of exertion but nothing extreme.

I would say the worse is Galaticas extension up the hill.

If a person is having such severe sensory overloads caused by loud noises and confined spaces then perhaps consider where they're going?

Maybe there could be things done for people who could join the main queue but at present can't, both from a visitor's point of view but also the parks.

Surely in an ideal situation, there would be no need for RAP as everyone would be able to join the main standby line.
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For many RAP users (probably the vast majority of RAP users nowadays, in fact), I don’t think it’s so much being physically capable of walking through the queue line that’s the barrier. I think it’s more to do with anxiety or other compounding mental factors being the barrier.

For instance, many people with special needs need constant stimulation and don’t understand the concept of non-instant gratification. A queue by its very nature cannot offer this.

Some people with special needs might go into meltdown at the concept of being packed tightly in a queue with other people. Or in a queue such as Smiler’s, I can see how someone with special needs might feel claustrophobic due to the combination of being tightly packed amongst people and having fences all around them.

It’s these people who need to be accommodated with RAP.

As for non-ambulant RAP users who rely on RAP for mobility-related reasons; I think their reason for using it is because the actual queue lines are a rather different ballgame to the public paths. Many of the queue lines have tight corners and steps, which someone in a wheelchair (for instance) might not be able to negotiate. The regular public footpaths don’t have these.

Some park operators such as Disney have gotten around the issue for non-ambulant RAP users by making queue lines wheelchair accessible so that they can queue normally, but I think that ambulant RAP users who are using it due to neurodiversity and its associated anxieties (by far the most common RAP demographic at Alton Towers) are a harder nut to crack. For that reason, not having RAP in some form isn’t really an option.
 
I have a hidden disability, as do a number of members on this forum.

If a person cannot learn to cope with queues then how do they cope with life in general? Queues at supermarkets, traffic queues and in public in general, Queues are a nessecity of life. The only other option is an unorganised huddle which would create even more anxiety and problems.

The smiler queue is a separate problem on its own really, and is not pleasant for anyone to spend any time in.

Again my point about inclusiveness in queuelines. Ideally queues would be such that people who are less mobile can queue with those who are able bodied.

Moving forwards, all queuelines should surely be built wide enough to accommodate wheelchairs and those less mobile. A good queue wouldn't be cramped and would move frequently. I find it surprising that even now things aren't built with disabilities in mind.
 
What's the split of physical disabilities vs non-visible disabilities using RAP? Anecdotally I'd say the majority fall into the latter category so changing the main queues to accommodate wheelchairs is unlikely to make much difference.

Instead they need to work out how to make the timed return system work properly so everybody waits for the same length of time, either physically or virtually.
 
I find it absurd that you see RAP queues of 30-45 minutes (due to the sheer volume of users on some rides) and long queues at Guest Services to collect RAP wristbands.

Makes a mockery of the whole system. At Chessington, RAP easily accounts for 1/3 of ride capacity which is totally unsustainable. What will it be next year? Half? At what stage will RAP queue time exceed main queue time? By 2030?

In many cases, I believe RAP use is a joke that is taken advantage of by people who are just seeking to get free Fastrack. This wholly discriminates against actual disabled guests who end up waiting far longer than they ought to and, at the same time, everyone in the main queue.

The Wicker Man RAP queue was backed up to the main ride entrance earlier this week... how is this acceptable?
 
It might surprise you but there are people and families who have their entire life controlled by the situation they are in. Freedoms and flexibilities many enjoy and take for granted are just not a thing. Theme parks are one place that is accomodating. Maybe that is why they are so popular in the community with hidden needs. I wouldn't even have the audacity to pass judgement over somebody in a similar situation as it's a wide spectrum with a wide range of different challenges.
 
Skyscraper said:
Like regular guests in the main queues, we don't have a choice if we want to ride stuff.
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But you’re still making the choice to wait in that line. It’s not that you’re physically completely “unable” to queue, you’d simply prefer and be more comfortable if you didn’t.

RAP should be solely for those who are literally incapable of queueing, not those who can put up with it for a ride
 
tayspru said:
RAP should be solely for those who are literally incapable of queueing, not those who can put up with it for a ride
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But theme parks consist of rides, so you're 'putting up with it' all day. And to expand on an earlier post from @Nick🎢 , as long as I have observed and partaken this community, it has been loaded with people we'd now broadly label as neurodivergent. Those individuals and their families seem to make up a sizeable portion of the renewing Annual Pass base, too.

I was dealt a red card for being insensitive earlier in this thread, and while some of the most recent posts here have made me cringe with frustration, I'm still not sure that my take - that there is inevitably some abuse of the system - would pass muster with the most radical activist. On the other hand, there are people who deal with RAP involved in the discussion who also feel it is being abused, while everyone at least agrees that the park is mismanaging or underinvesting in it.

This is becoming as repetitive of a discussion each October as the 'traveller' chat earlier in the month. What is clear is that as society and businesses become more accommodating to those who fall outside of mainstream needs, the margins for who is applicable are stretched. If we can at all depoliticise this topic, I do wonder what the rational solution is for this, not only for Alton Towers, but the industry in general? The capacity statistics reported elsewhere from CWoA are, if accurate, totally unsustainable and please nobody on either side of the fence.

I find it interesting that of all the Merlin parks, Legoland have their ish together when it comes to RAP. I suppose, as a park oriented towards children and strongly associated with a beloved, inclusive brand, there has been greater incentive for them to invest in a more productive system.

For reference, I am an able-bodied, neurotypical (just about...) individual who is perfectly capable of queuing, albeit reluctant to do so. Theme parks are designed as escapism and are treated as such, with different models of behaviour playing out than you might experience in other areas of life. It doesn't particularly bother me if someone who faces challenges I am fortunate enough not to experience gets to walk onto Oblivion while I wait, nor if they take their friends. The important thing is, we all get to ride Oblivion. But whatever end you're approaching it from, nobody should have to wait that long for Oblivion.
 
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Ultimately, I think RAP and its implementation is simply a tough conundrum with no real perfect solution.

Any solution to the perceived issues with RAP ends up adversely affecting somebody. If you gravitate too much towards RAP users, then the main queue never moves and you ostracise the bulk of your visitor demographic (while I totally agree that RAP users need to be accommodated, they still make up a minority of the theme park visiting populace). If you gravitate away from RAP users too much, then you ostracise a disabled community who in many cases already face a lot of hardship in day to day life. It’s a tough balance to strike, and I think that having a solution where everybody wins is easier said than done.

I know that some will bring up wholesale virtual queueing for all as a win-win solution, and I admit that it’s a good idea on paper. However, I think that virtual queueing brings with it a whole host of different problems. Real world examples of where this has been tried suggest that it’s an idea that sounds brilliant on paper, but often crumbles upon contact with reality. This is seemingly particularly evident in theme parks that were not originally designed to accommodate it; the already mentioned examples such as Walibi Holland’s trial of universal virtual queueing during COVID and Thorpe Park’s brief trial of Reserve’n’Ride sound as though they exist as cautionary tales rather than trailblazers in the field of queueing. Even Universal’s Volcano Bay, a water park that was designed to accommodate wholesale virtual queueing, has had considerable teething problems with the implementation of a fully queue-less park.

It’s a tough conundrum… there are many ideas on how to solve the RAP problem, and I’ll concede that many of them sound as though they would do it fairly well, but I don’t think any of them provides that silver bullet where everybody wins that you ideally want.

I apologise if I have said anything insensitive on this topic. That certainly wasn’t my intent, and I definitely understand the struggles of those who use RAP.
 
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There is totally abuse of the system. It's inevitable. How far and how wide that is, I wouldn't like to say because I have no idea.

"THE WHOLE PROBLEM WITH THE WORLD IS THAT FOOLS AND FANATICS ARE ALWAYS SO CERTAIN OF THEMSELVES, AND WISER PEOPLE SO FULL OF DOUBTS."

What I am getting at is people converting the fact there is some abuse into "most of them are abusing it". Lots of certainty flying around 😉

#PhilosophicalWesnesday
 
Benzin said:
Using Benjsh's post as the most recent example; would you not think it somewhat insensitive to have your child's mental disability whittled down to you being a bad parent?

You yourself seem to be of the belief that many RAP users can queue in the normal queue because they queue in the RAP one. Would some be able to withstand the tight confines of Thirteen, Rita or Smiler? What about the physical exertion required for Nemesis or Oblivion? When the park's RAP system isn't even implemented by the staff properly on a number of occasions what options are there for RAP users?

Disabled people (especially those with non-visible disabilities) have enough judgement on the street without needing to see such things online. Plus something the Internet seems to forget is that there are consequences to what you say (which often goes completely overboard because there's no grey online anymore).

Thoughtful phrasing is a far more sensible way to debate these things rather than hook onto vapid generalisations of something that has become far more public. Ignorance of the problem and blaming it on "modern parenting" (note I am not actually accusing Benjsh of this as his thought process, but the general wider world view) causes the issue not to be resolved, and force people to mask their behaviours in a completely unhealthy manner. This of course can cause further problems down the line for both child and parent in different fashions.

Quite often it feels like the RAP users are being made out as a scapegoat to what is a park operational issue that has been allowed to become overcrowded and oversaturated due to a minority of groups who abuse it for the own goals. Staff often aren't trained to deal with burdenous guests, and often when faced with RAP guests kicking off the odds are stacked against them.
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I think it's only fair that I should answer this and fairly as possible as it seems like a bit of a dig at me.

First of all my whole point wasnt to attack anyone. I was actually sympathising for the people who genuinely need to use this pass and made that perfectly clear in my post. My 'attack' if there was one at all was on the selfish ones who clearly don't really need it but will use it anyway because it's basically free fastpass which is almost certainly happening.

I know someone in my extended family who has been supposedly diagnosed with ADHD. They weren't doing well in school and my relative (Cousin) thought something was up with him and had him checked out. True enough he's since been diagnosed with ADHD. Funny enough though this same child (my second cousin), has no issues with being on his Xbox for 3-4 hours at a time as I have witnessed it first hand on more than one occasion. Funny that, eh? Funny how selective that ADHD can be when it's something you don't like doing, eh? This is my own family too so doesn't give me any joy admitting that. I think it's rather sad actually.

I know ADHD is real. Some people suffer terribly from it I'm sure and I feel for them I do. I don't mean to belittle the ones who do and it upsets me to think people think I am.

I do however believe it's become a bit of a cop out for some though and an excuse for laziness from parents and in some cases teachers. We all learn, as children and adults, in totally different ways. Differentiation is required to have a full class of children engaged in something as some people learn visually and some people learn by having a go themselves. This doesn't mean that everyone who isn't concentrating has ADHD. It might with a select few but with others it will simply mean they just haven't found a way to get the message though yet.

Finally I want to say I think the disabled are treated horrendously in this country by a number of people and none more so than the current government. I certainly wouldn't be removing help and funding for disabled people if I was in Number 10. I'd offer a lot more help than they currently get.
 
Fair play. There is a general misconception around what ADHD is though. I can't say what is or isn't in your particular case but it's worth understand that it can be more complex than "not being able to concentrate".

"There are strong ties between ADHD and video games. People with ADHD tend to spend more time playing games. Those with more intense symptoms tend to play more often.

One2021 study found that “ADHD symptoms and video game addiction appear to have a bidirectional relationship in which the ADHD symptoms make video gaming appealing, while play itself exacerbates the ADHD symptoms by providing … instant gratification.”

A 2018 study found that people with ADHD have greater chances of video game addiction, and those with the most intense symptoms are at the greatest likelihood."

Source

I am no expert but from how it's been described to me, the apparent lack of attention (which is only one side, the AD of the ADHD) is not "the thing" but more of a side effect of what is going on. Which is more like 100 thoughts all simultaneously running through your head. For whatever reason some things side step that, potentially I guess things like games or tik tok that have been designed to reset attention rapidly.

Funnily enough I only looked into this in the last few years myself when I asked the same questions when a pediatrician was suggesting that was at play with one of mine. My gut reaction was exactly the same.
 
As an aside on RAP queue length I completely agree. There is a reason our family Theme Park season is basically April/May then do very little there after. We went in Sept trying to gamble on it being quiet (it wasn't) and the RAP queues were all 20, 30 mins. Totally defeats the point. I will stop short of making any kind of accusations around if people deserve it or not though because the truth is, without being in their shoes I cannot judge.
 
Benjsh said:
I think it's only fair that I should answer this and fairly as possible as it seems like a bit of a dig at me.

First of all my whole point wasnt to attack anyone. I was actually sympathising for the people who genuinely need to use this pass and made that perfectly clear in my post. My 'attack' if there was one at all was on the selfish ones who clearly don't really need it but will use it anyway because it's basically free fastpass which is almost certainly happening.

I know someone in my extended family who has been supposedly diagnosed with ADHD. They weren't doing well in school and my relative (Cousin) thought something was up with him and had him checked out. True enough he's since been diagnosed with ADHD. Funny enough though this same child (my second cousin), has no issues with being on his Xbox for 3-4 hours at a time as I have witnessed it first hand on more than one occasion. Funny that, eh? Funny how selective that ADHD can be when it's something you don't like doing, eh? This is my own family too so doesn't give me any joy admitting that. I think it's rather sad actually.

I know ADHD is real. Some people suffer terribly from it I'm sure and I feel for them I do. I don't mean to belittle the ones who do and it upsets me to think people think I am.

I do however believe it's become a bit of a cop out for some though and an excuse for laziness from parents and in some cases teachers. We all learn, as children and adults, in totally different ways. Differentiation is required to have a full class of children engaged in something as some people learn visually and some people learn by having a go themselves. This doesn't mean that everyone who isn't concentrating has ADHD. It might with a select few but with others it will simply mean they just haven't found a way to get the message though yet.

Finally I want to say I think the disabled are treated horrendously in this country by a number of people and none more so than the current government. I certainly wouldn't be removing help and funding for disabled people if I was in Number 10. I'd offer a lot more help than they currently get.
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My main reasoning for using your post as an example was because it was one of the more recent ones that kind of showed an ignorance towards mental health disabilities.

The explanation for it is still a bit mergh if I'm honest. Your second cousin (like I think most kids these days) finds focusing on gaming far easier than school and the like. The rise of technology I think is the result of this moreso and a lot of parents use tablets/laptops/mobiles to keep kids entertained rather than other activities. More often than not its easier but does potentially cause further problems, the likes of Cocomelon as a show causes such overstimulation for kids for example.

Kids (and adults) find different things more comforting than others. And I think nowadays we are far more knowledgeable about these issues (friend of mine has 3 year old twins who have been flagged up due to development being slower than they should be, and their at home behaviours show flags for being within the spectrum), which means that the numbers go up considerably as we are catching these and diagnosing.

As long as the parents believe that something is up. Wife's sister has 3 kids and the eldest is awaiting the diagnosis meeting but the ex husband is one of those sorts who doesn't really believe in it (he's also an awful human being but that's beside the point).

I think that saying that ADHD is a cop out for some belittles the situation. Unfortunately given the way in which schools have been cut to ribbons budget wise means that teachers cannot give the right focus for those on the bottom end. However this is more political conversation than relevant to the topic.

Parental wise there are probably some that drive towards it (abuse of the system) but do those people actually get an official diagnosis out of it? If they don't then going forwards they won't qualify for RAP under the new rules coming in.

I get that you're not going full on about it, but there's some weird ignorance going on with the whole "ADHD doesn't affect him when playing games" and calling it a cop out diagnosis for lazy patents/teachers.

Think at the end if the day a lot of the issues regarding neuro divergence is that everyone deals with it differently. Clearly some on here can mask enough to survive the day out. Others can't do this, and in everyday life there are ways to tackle it (online shopping deliveries, travelling at quieter times, etc), this isn't an option for theme parks, especially if you work and have to go on a weekend or take a day off. Or you need someone to go with or do things for you. It cannot be generalised it just because one person deals with their disability better than another, it's not a competition (and my wife gets this often from her extended family, because they're a bit dreadful) and shouldn't be treated as such.

If you can mask yourself enough to queue in the main queue, we'll done. But not everyone can do that.
Matt N said:
As for non-ambulant RAP users who rely on RAP for mobility-related reasons; I think their reason for using it is because the actual queue lines are a rather different ballgame to the public paths. Many of the queue lines have tight corners and steps, which someone in a wheelchair (for instance) might not be able to negotiate. The regular public footpaths don’t have these.
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Saw this and laughed. As someone who pushes a wheelchair around regularly in public, quite often footpaths are not designed for wheelchairs and more often than not make areas really difficult to travel around. Add in ignorance of people (say parking in front of dropped kerbs or parking in blue badge spots) and its an absolute nightmare.
 
When it comes to the overflowing RAP queues, it shows more of a flaw in the system Towers use than abuse of the system. Sure, people may abuse the system and claim RAP, however, if a system creates queues of 30-40+ minutes when it's meant to be about not having to queue at all, that displays a big problem with how RAP is managed by Towers.

This topic always swings back to 'well that person does not have a disability they do not need RAP'. We should discuss more about how the system works and why Towers has such a flawed system implemented. I wouldn't blame the guests at all.

It seems like a digitised system would be more effective, Merlin/Towers need to look into alternative ways of managing RAP so it's fair for all.
 
It all boils down to the fact that there is evidently a large number of guests who allegedly aren’t capable of queueing are now routinely standing in queues that range from 30 minutes to 1 hour

Maybe it’s the system, but those guests are demonstrably more capable of queueing than they might let on or they would simply not be in said queue
 
Fastrack is limited in number, because of course if everyone has a fastrack ticket then it would become pointless.

It appears that with RAP they issue unlimited number per day as long as people reach the required criteria, resulting in overwhelming the system and disadvantaging those it is designed to help.

Would it be legal for the park to require prebooking of RAP passes and limiting the number bookable per day? That way they can control numbers just as they do with fastrack - reducing the pressure on the queues and improving the experience.

I accept this isn’t a perfect solution, but on the surface at least appears to be an improvement on the current situation. What I am not sure on is if they are legally allowed to set such a limit under equality legislation.
 
AT86 said:
Fastrack is limited in number, because of course if everyone has a fastrack ticket then it would become pointless.

It appears that with RAP they issue unlimited number per day as long as people reach the required criteria, resulting in overwhelming the system and disadvantaging those it is designed to help.

Would it be legal for the park to require prebooking of RAP passes and limiting the number bookable per day? That way they can control numbers just as they do with fastrack - reducing the pressure on the queues and improving the experience.

I accept this isn’t a perfect solution, but on the surface at least appears to be an improvement on the current situation. What I am not sure on is if they are legally allowed to set such a limit under equality legislation.
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Currently the plastic RAP photocards are valid for 3 years I think, and you either collect the paper timecard or log onto R&R once on-park. Would therefore be difficult to limit the number being used each day.
 
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