Should Maths and English be made compulsory past GCSE level?

[Matt N]

Hi guys. Currently in the UK, Maths and English are only compulsory up to GCSE level, so students only have to study them up to age 16.

However, that could change if Rishi Sunak wins the Tory leadership race and becomes Prime Minister of the UK. As part of his 3-point plan to transform education, he is proposing a new British Baccalaureate, which would force students to study Maths and English to A Level, so up to age 18: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/teens-should-study-maths-english-27678933

Sunak’s argument for this is that in most other Western countries and advanced economies, students are forced to study Maths and English up to age 18, and he feels that it will “hold us back” if students do not have the Maths and English skills gained by studying those subjects to A Level.

But I’d be keen to know; do you agree with Rishi Sunak’s thinking? Do you think that Maths and English should be compulsory past GCSE level?

Personally, my answer is no. I do not agree with Maths and English being made compulsory at A Level.

My reasoning for this is that not everyone likes these subjects, and to put it bluntly, I think forcing everyone to study them to A Level would prevent a significant proportion of students from fully utilising their potential and channeling it into the path they want to take.

Not everyone enjoys Maths and English, not everyone flourishes at Maths and English, and not everyone wants to pursue paths related to these subjects. I myself studied A Level Maths, and from my own experience, I would not advise it unless you are very talented at Maths and/or want to pursue a career in STEM.

If you don’t mind a little story, let me tell you about my experience.

For some idea, I did reasonably well at Maths throughout lower secondary school; I was always in the top set from Year 7 right through to Year 11, I got a 7 (A) in GCSE Maths and somehow managed a B in GCSE Further Maths despite struggling with the material a fair amount. With this in mind, I thought “yeah, I’m pretty good at Maths; why not give the A Level a go? And why not do Further Maths as well? The challenge sounds fun!”. Suffice to say, I either massively overestimated my mathematical ability, massively underestimated the difficulty of mathematical subjects at A Level, or most likely a combination of both.

I only managed 4 months doing A Level Further Maths before dropping it; I did 2 exams in that 4 months and got Us in both of them despite doing a fair amount of revision, and I spent every lesson staring at the whiteboard, dumbfounded, thinking “what on Earth just happened?”. No matter how hard I tried to understand it, it just didn’t sink in at all.

A Level Maths started off OK; during AS, it was all right. I struggled with Year 12 Maths a bit more than GCSE Maths, but it was OK; I felt like I had somewhat of a grasp on the subject. But Year 13 was a whole different story; the difficulty ramped up quite significantly at A2 level compared to AS level, and many lessons were giving me horrible flashbacks to my brief foray into AS Further. Once again, I often found myself staring at the whiteboard, dumbfounded, thinking “what on Earth just happened?” A fair few of my mock exam results during Year 13 were Ds and Es in spite of me doing a fair bit of revision, and even when I properly put my all into revising the subject and trying to understand it before the end of my A Levels, I only just scraped a C at the end.

I apologise if you didn’t want to hear that whole story, as I appreciate that that whole extract probably sounds a bit self-centred (sorry…), but my point is; if someone like me who did fairly OK at Maths at GCSE found the A Level a tough uphill struggle and hit some real low points while studying it, I can imagine it being an incredibly demoralising experience, and incredibly gruelling, for someone who struggled with Maths in lower school. Also, I’m not really sure that A Level Maths would have a lot of relevance for most unless you’re pursuing a career in STEM. Will someone going down a vocational path, such as health & social care, really need to know material such as all the differentiation and integration rules, and exponentials and logarithms, and numerical methods, and sequences and series? Probably not.

As for A Level English; I had one taster lesson of A Level English in Year 11 and I really didn’t understand it at all… I can certainly imagine I would have struggled with the A Level, and I can’t imagine it would have been at all relevant to my aspired career path.

But in conclusion, I do not personally agree with students being forced to do English & Maths past GCSE level. I think many students don’t flourish best when doing these subjects, and many don’t really need to know the A Level material unless they go into a career path that heavily leans upon the subject.

But what’s your opinion? Do you agree with me, or do you think Maths & English should be mandatory up to age 18?

 

[shakey]

Zero chance that would happen.

This is also an article from the Mirror about the Tories, so I would take it with a huge pinch of salt.

 

[Matt N]

Zero chance that would happen.

This is also an article from the Mirror about the Tories, so I would take it with a huge pinch of salt.

For clarity, this is a genuine Sunak policy that he has talked about at hustings events and in his campaign manifesto. It comes from his 3-point plan to revolutionise education, with the other 2 points being to abolish degrees that don’t increase earning potential and to start a Russell Group of technical colleges.

There were also sources reporting this that weren’t the Mirror, but they were either behind a paywall or were equivalent tabloids.

 

[shakey]

It would mean forcing every child to stay at school till they are 18. Many kids don't have the aptitude for A Level Maths or English, or any other subject for that matter.

It simply won't happen.

My lad is in year 11 from September and is not very academic. He won't be staying on after that. Currently wants to be a plumber and is hoping to get an apprenticeship. No point in him doing A 'Levels.

 

[Matt N]

It would mean forcing every child to stay at school till they are 18. Many kids don't have the aptitude for A Level Maths or English, or any other subject for that matter.

It simply won't happen.

My lad is in year 11 from September and is not very academic. He won't be staying on after that. Currently wants to be a plumber and is hoping to get an apprenticeship. No point in him doing A 'Levels.

I must admit, I don’t disagree with that at all. I did A Levels myself (one of which happened to be A Level Maths), but I definitely wouldn’t advocate that path for everybody. Some people just don’t thrive in an academic context, and I don’t think they should be forced to take an academic path post-GCSE, personally.

I think you’re either suited to further academia after GCSEs or you aren’t. I personally was, but I know plenty of people who weren’t, and they’re all doing perfectly well in their own chosen path.

 

[JAperson]

No, it's too hard as it is. Half the stuff they teach you at GCSE you are never going to use. I struggled with things like algebra but was perfectly capable of working out how much my mars bar and my bag of cookies are going to cost me. They should streamline the foundation maths GCSE and teach you things that are actually going to be useful. Tax and mortgages being the prime example. Plus if you don't pass your maths and English GCSE's you already have to carry them on until you are 18. If for example you can pass the already too hard exam then why should you carry it on for another two years?

 

[rob666]

This is a politicians "genuine policy" Matt, in hustings.
Nothing will ever happen, a bit like registering bicycles.
Silly season political statements about future policy rarely become actual "real stuff".
Almost never.
Boris bridges to Ireland and all.

 

[Matt.GC]

How would this all work then? As in what are kids options between 16 and 18 at the moment?

This is all alien to me because I left school and ran a mile at 16 and went straight into full time work (in the summer before I'd actually taken some of my GCSE exams) and never looked back. I hated school (but believe me when I say I wish I could have my time again). A work environment did me the world of good where I flourished. I probably wouldn't have my current job or way of life now if I was forced in to 2 more years of the stuff I hated and was no good it. It would've just been 2 more years of feeling like a failure compared to my peers, 2 more years of not earning money, 2 more years of wasting my time.

What do kids in the same boat as I was do at the moment?

 

[JAperson]

How would this all work then? As in what are kids options between 16 and 18 at the moment?

This is all alien to me because I left school and ran a mile at 16 and went straight into full time work (in the summer before I'd actually taken some of my GCSE exams) and never looked back. I hated school (but believe me when I say I wish I could have my time again). A work environment did me the world of good where I flourished. I probably wouldn't have my current job or way of life now if I was forced in to 2 more years of the stuff I hated and was no good it. It would've just been 2 more years of feeling like a failure compared to my peers, 2 more years of not earning money, 2 more years of wasting my time.

What do kids in the same boat as I was do at the moment?

When you leave school now you really have four options presented to you: Do A levels at a A level college (often attached to the school you've been at since you were 11), Do a BTEC at a creative or industry focused college (often equivalent to A levels but they are more practical based and there's usually course work in these you only study one subject rather than say three like in A levels, get an apprenticeships or join the armed forces. At the moment you are basically required to do one of these until you are 18 although it's not really ever enforced that you do it, lots of people drop out of college and they never get chased up for not being in education. Currently if you don't pass your English or Maths at GCSE you are forced to do it while doing the options mentioned above either until you pass or turn 18. This would mean forcing even those who have passed at GCSE to do it too which is absolute rubbish as the GCSE's themselves are full of rubbish nobody is ever going to need.

 

[Tim]

A Levels should be the point that you have choice the direction you want to go and can specialise accordingly. I chose to continue Maths (Mechanics) because I wanted to learn engineering. Maths (Statistics) was also an option but I was glad I could specialise as the former was far more useful for me. I had no intention to continue English! It's a subject I was rubbish at and didn't need to improve in.
With both Maths and English everyone needs to learn the basics but beyond that they are academic subjects. Once you can read, write and communicate your average person doesn't need to learn more advanced literary practices. Maths holds out a little longer, I agree with the sentiment above that a module on Morgauges and other practical maths would be incredibly useful. But most the stuff I learnt after 16 I only remember in the cases that they are relevant to my job.
So I'm a firm 'no' on this one. Which seems to be the same for everyone else so far.

 

[James]

No.

@JAperson is spot on with that the current GCSE curriculum needs to be more practical and teach you things like budgeting and mortgages.

Even beyond maths, I feel a lot of subjects simply do not prepare you for the real world. The whole of secondary education needs an overhaul.

 

[Vik]

Maths? God no.

I never really got maths at all. Even with extra tutoring at college I struggled beyond the basics. I’m not stupid either, just couldn’t get math. Math at A Level is a completely different ball game to GCSE where you have different levels and is a lot more complicated

Should be a choice really for both Math and English after 16. If you struggle with either by then, then there is little chance you would grasp either beyond then without dedicating substantial additional time to either/or/both

 

[Matt.GC]

When you leave school now you really have four options presented to you: Do A levels at a A level college (often attached to the school you've been at since you were 11), Do a BTEC at a creative or industry focused college (often equivalent to A levels but they are more practical based and there's usually course work in these you only study one subject rather than say three like in A levels, get an apprenticeships or join the armed forces. At the moment you are basically required to do one of these until you are 18 although it's not really ever enforced that you do it, lots of people drop out of college and they never get chased up for not being in education. Currently if you don't pass your English or Maths at GCSE you are forced to do it while doing the options mentioned above either until you pass or turn 18. This would mean forcing even those who have passed at GCSE to do it too which is absolute rubbish as the GCSE's themselves are full of rubbish nobody is ever going to need.

That's interesting because I was wondering as I read this about how they could possibly enforce it? I'd imagine if an employer did take a 16 year old on full time then they could potentially get in trouble for it?

It's worth pointing out that labour laws have changed since I left when there was nothing that stopped me getting a full time job a month after leaving school for "revision time" in the summer on full T&C's as any other employee. Other than paying them less, it's not very attractive to employ under 18's now in most industries. Loads of rules and regs that makes them almost unemployable in my line of work but maybe that's by design?

My son is not like me and his mother at all in that he's gifted. He's 13, loves maths and sciences and wants to do them at A level. Very proud of him. But I've told him to get a job as soon as he turns 16 alongside his studies.

I think it's healthy for kids to get out to work. There's so much they learn there that they can't in education. The culture is completely different. I fear that imprisoning kids in education for too long holds them back.

 

[JAperson]

That's interesting because I was wondering as I read this about how they could possibly enforce it? I'd imagine if an employer did take a 16 year old on full time then they could potentially get in trouble for it?

Basically the only thing they do to enforce it is they send you a form in like August asking what you are doing next year education wise, if you don't fill it out I imagine you get into trouble. But there's nothing stopping you from enrolling in a school and then never showing up and just getting a job or sitting at home.

It's worth pointing out that labour laws have changed since I left when there was nothing that stopped me getting a full time job a month after leaving school for "revision time" in the summer on full T&C's as any other employee. Other than paying them less, it's not very attractive to employ under 18's now in most industries. Loads of rules and regs that makes them almost unemployable in my line of work but maybe that's by design?

The labour laws are a problem and it makes getting a job at 16 near impossible unless you want to be a pot washer (and there aren't many of those jobs as they are so sort after)

My son is not like me and his mother at all in that he's gifted. He's 13, loves maths and sciences and wants to do them at A level. Very proud of him. But I've told him to get a job as soon as he turns 16 alongside his studies.

I think it's healthy for kids to get out to work. There's so much they learn there that they can't in education. The culture is completely different. I fear that imprisoning kids in education for too long holds them back.

Like I've mentioned above I think it's unlikely your son will be able to get a job at 16. Especially if he does A levels, because with A levels you are at college 5 days a week while with a BTEC you are there perhaps three. It's almost impossible to find a job that fits around college, trust me I've tried and I know people who've both succeeded (only a few) and those who've failed to get a job at 16 while at college (most). It's a shame as I'm currently going to be heading off to Uni and I've had no work experience, this is a shame for me as I would've liked to have done a job for a few months.

 

[DistortAMG]

Like I've mentioned above I think it's unlikely your son will be able to get a job at 16. Especially if he does A levels, because with A levels you are at college 5 days a week while with a BTEC you are there perhaps three. It's almost impossible to find a job that fits around college, trust me I've tried and I know people who've both succeeded (only a few) and those who've failed to get a job at 16 while at college (most). It's a shame as I'm currently going to be heading off to Uni and I've had no work experience, this is a shame for me as I would've liked to have done a job for a few months.

There are loads of jobs about for students. Maybe it is different around my local area, but the issue you seem to state has never really existed around here.

In contrast, I do not know of many people around here who do not have a part time job at 16. Maybe we are lucky around here I do not know. But I would not assume that your situation is the same nationwide as it is for you. It is not. I understand we are slightly different here due to Drayton Manor, but around here we have cinemas, huge amounts of retail, plenty of fast and dining food, theme park, other leisure facilities such as the Snowdome, all taking on part time students. Never a shortage of jobs around here for 16 year olds.


So schools are looking at shortening their weekly schedule to cope with the massive projected energy bills this winter. Yet Mr Genius has come up with an idea increasing overall use of schools. Where is the money coming from?

It will never happen.

 

[Tim]

If you live near a Theme Park and want a summer job as a student there's nearly always roles going. Not a bad choice if you want a job that gives some life experience while also being flexible around term times.

The under 18 rules though can be tough for trying to do something worthwhile. I used to work on rides with 16 and 17 year olds and all they could do was batch people. Sucked for them and also locked everyone into the same roles all day as no one could swap positions with them.

 

[Matt N]

The problem these days is that you need a degree for many roles where you didn’t necessarily need one a few decades ago, and an almost universally accepted prerequisite of a degree is A Levels or some sort of equivalent education.

Compared to a couple of decades ago, I think not doing A Levels or an equivalent way of gaining UCAS points inhibits you more. It is far harder to just walk into a job like you used to be able to; the job market is far more competitive, and employers have far higher demands. While getting a degree, A Levels or similar is not a silver bullet that guarantees you a job by any means, it will make you significantly more employable in many fields.

Of course, however, a fair few fields still do not require A Levels or a degree, and there’s nothing wrong with taking one of these paths if it suits you.

With that in mind, I do get the government’s policy of keeping people in education until 18. However, I still maintain that I don’t think Maths and English should be forced upon people past GCSE if they don’t want to take it.

 

[Danscott22]

Absolutely not. If students want to leave at 16, they should be able to, not forced into carrying on something they don't like. I did A Levels, an undergraduate degree and am currently doing a postgraduate Masters, before moving into legal work next year so am used to education and bizarrely quite like it. But Rishi should not be imposing an obligation to continue for those who don't want to, as it's not fair. Some students may go into apprenticeships/FT/PT work straight after and that's fine. Everybody should have the freedom of choice to choose what they do education/work wise post 16.

 

[DistortAMG]

The problem these days is that you need a degree for many roles where you didn’t necessarily need one a few decades ago, and an almost universally accepted prerequisite of a degree is A Levels or some sort of equivalent education.

Compared to a couple of decades ago, I think not doing A Levels or an equivalent way of gaining UCAS points inhibits you more. It is far harder to just walk into a job like you used to be able to; the job market is far more competitive, and employers have far higher demands. While getting a degree, A Levels or similar is not a silver bullet that guarantees you a job by any means, it will make you significantly more employable in many fields.

Of course, however, a fair few fields still do not require A Levels or a degree, and there’s nothing wrong with taking one of these paths if it suits you.

With that in mind, I do get the government’s policy of keeping people in education until 18. However, I still maintain that I don’t think Maths and English should be forced upon people past GCSE if they don’t want to take it.

Jobs are far far easier to walk into now than they have ever been. Including skilled jobs. A combination of Brexit, Covid and the huge labour shortage has really made it a job seekers market out there. Companies are crying out for staff.

A friend has just walked into a job with a very well known and major triple A, video game developer based here in the Midlands. No Uni degree, just good experience, a lot of which was curated from his bedroom. I have heard of similar stories in other industries too. It is not like the UK is full of indie game developers either, which would explain why they hire "un qualified" staff. Some of the biggest and most successful video games of all time, such as the Grand Theft Auto series, Planet Coaster / Zoo, Formula 1 games, Lego and the Forza Horizon series of games (to name a few) are all made here on our shores. With at least 2 of the six mentioned made here in the Midlands. The UK are a major player in the worldwide industry, but time and time again, they are seeing 'degrees' as almost worthless. Choosing to hire staff with very good salary's on experience more than anything else.

I am not saying it is exactly the same for other industries, but it is worth noting.

 

[rob666]

Yup, there are masses of jobs out there at the moment, full time, part time, sessional, loads of vacancies.
I could set up another gardener with full time work, quality customers, right now, just with the repeated requests from friends and family of current customers.
Premium work at double and treble the minimum wage on offer, zero takers locally.
Crazy situation.
Poor sods have to trim their own bushes.