The Brexit Thread

Discussion in 'Corner Coffee' started by Matt N, 27th Mar 2019.

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  1. Dave

    Dave TS Founding Member

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    It always amuses me that the right think the BBC has a left wing bias, I can promise you it doesn’t. It tries to be as accurate as possible (doesn’t always succeed), and the far right and far left hate it when their lies are exposed but if people stopped lying they would stop hating the BBC.

    What’s Veganism got to do with this discussion? I’m a meat eater but were you just trying to push the buttons of another group you don’t like?
     
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  2. rob666

    rob666 TowersStreet Member

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    So now I am a racist as well as a profiteering fool.
    Guardian, Observer and Indy reader all my life, but because I disagree with benjsh I am the lowest of the low racist scum.
    Still throwing the insults then, my opinion is right and you are all wrong, misguided racists.
    Kiss my whip.
    Be kind.
    Stop being rude.

    Double post, whip me twice.
    I don't do holidays abroad anymore, not in decades.
    I don't buy on amazon, ever.
    Never been in starbucks in my life...not once.
    I do drive a foreign car, my mechanic selected it for me.
    No ikea furniture.
    No smartphone.
    Lots of stereoptypical generalisations there.
    All wrong according to this brexiteer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26th Jun 2021
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  3. Dave

    Dave TS Founding Member

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    And here we have a perfect example of the conflict this completely pointless exercise has caused. Literally a split across the country that is going to last a generation and lead to further splits in the future.

    It really hasn’t been worth it
     
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  4. BigT

    BigT TowersStreet Member

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    Whilst I agree with the amount of arguments it’s caused I don’t think we will know whether it was worth it for a good few years yet either way,
     
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  5. Benzin

    Benzin TowersStreet Member

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    I mean, when Tories are voting against feeding poor children it's fairly understandable that they would be seen as evil.

    Plus the changes to disability benefits.

    The fervent Labour supporters are a strange bunch. Which results in the ridiculous infighting which results in doing nothing beneficial.
     
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  6. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    I agree with this, but I am not sure if we agree on the detail of the point. Folks are quite rightly suggesting that we need to take time to understand if it was all 'worth it' - completely on board with the sentiment, but - the definition of success can't be a transient or undefined thing.

    Tony Blair (keep reading plz) made some really interesting points both during the campaign and during the ensuing mess between the referendum and now. One of his best interventions was his house moving analogy, whereby the referendum result was essentially an agreement that we going to move house but there was a debate as to what the what the new house would be like, some said it was going to be better, some said it was going to be worse. Then after we had agreed to move house, the country was compelled to accept the new house whether it be an upgrade, or a downgrade.


    From 36:05 if not automatic

    That's an insane way to run a country (or your personal life, for that matter), whether it be about Brexit or anything else. Imagine a referendum that asked us "Should we change the way the NHS works?" or "Should we change how much tax you pay?". Absolute insanity.

    Anyway, back to my original point - if it's going to be worth it and the lives of each of us going to be better, someone needs to articulate by what measure that will be the case and agree by when.

    Since the referendum:
    • Three years of domestic policy evaporated, with parliament and the civil service doing almost nothing else
    • The currency really suffered - which sounds immaterial but because we import so much, the £ = € rate is crucial
    • We have created trade barriers that we didn't have before
    • We have created a real problem for part of the UK that was specifically promised would be a non-issue
    • And most annoying of all, I can't take my dog to France when we go camping without faff and expense
     
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  7. pluk

    pluk TowersStreet Member

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    An excellent case in point.

    Did the tories actually vote against feeding the poor children? No not really, because you would have to believe they are inherently evil to do so. They voted against providing free meals to all children, which would of course include many millions off un-hungry children in families that can comfortably afford to feed themselves, as they see that as frivolously wasteful of public funds and the responsibility of the parents.

    They had a means tested alternative that targeted always limited funds to where they are most needed. So they did want to feed the hungry kiddies after all, but were just going about it in a different way. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say noone in government actually wants children going hungry.

    I know which approach I prefer, but I imagine I'm seen as evil in the eyes of many for doing so.

    Their competence to deliver is another matter entirely...

    I have no particular knowledge of the changes to disability benefit, but I wouldn't mind betting they follow a similar narrative.
     
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  8. Benzin

    Benzin TowersStreet Member

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    Did you see what the food boxes contained?

    Current government only do things if they get a benefit out of it. Be it an easy handout or donations.

    The changes to Universal Credit involved a entire mess of people who previously were fine on whatever level benefit they were on suddenly being told they were fit to work. Which is perfectly logical for those who were wheelchair users or amputees. It's seen a rise in suicides but I guess in their eyes less disabled people is less of a drain on country resources.

    I mean they u turned very quickly on the feeding children thing after the public outcry and Rashford leading them on a merry dance. And given the level of corruption and general idiocy going on (using a company with no ferries as a transport option for example, the PPE issues and many more), its no wonder that people would see them as evil people who don't care. See Grenfell Tower fallout as well.

    Can see it through the zero consequences any MP has when the latest scandal hits. Hancock has now resigned from cabinet but he's still on his full MP wage. But he wasn't exactly made to by Boris (probably because he felt hypocritical over sacking someone for adultery).
     
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  9. Dave

    Dave TS Founding Member

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    The argument was around the means testing, not the idea that a rich kid should have their meals subsidised. What was causing an issue was the means testing already had a really low bar and people who where considered not to need support couldn’t afford to really feed the entire family, and the fact means testing always has a lag between someone’s actual current income and the period you are means testing (you can only really test past income). So furlough lead to a 25% cut in many people’s income but the means testing wasn’t reflecting that quickly enough. Which is why the logical (and not that expensive) thing to do is offer the meals to everyone until you fix the means testing, yet the party in power wanted to allow folk to slip through the net and go hungry.

    The Tory party is good at looking fiscally competent when really they just want to keep money flowing in their general direction with schemes that look good on paper but often result in creating a false economy.
     
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  10. BigT

    BigT TowersStreet Member

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    That bit made me chuckle, the thought of a rich kid getting their meal subsidised, rich kids go to independent schools where the meals are included.
     
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  11. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    Define rich. Also no.
     
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  12. WillPS

    WillPS TowersStreet Member

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    You foresee the future of the British workforce as down pits and picking grapes (???) do you?
     
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  13. pluk

    pluk TowersStreet Member

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    You think those jobs are beneath the British, do you?
     
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  14. GaryH

    GaryH TowersStreet Member

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    Why not? We have an ambudance of high quality coal in Wales, why not mine it? As for grapes, again why not? We have grown some high quality wines in parts of the U.K. and why should we rely on cheap EU labour to do this instead of U.K. residents?

    British people don’t want to do these jobs at present because of our expectation of cheap prices on our goods at the expense of others (cheap clothing for example, £3 for a jumper in primark from a person paid £1 a day in Bangladesh).

    This whole mindset has to change and we should we paying a bit more for our goods, but which come from people in decently paid jobs so they can afford a home and to contribute to the taxes of the country in which they reside.

    It’s also better for the planet as the movement of goods by air/sea will be reduced especially for items we can produce right here in our own country.
     
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  15. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    We have sparred on this before @GaryH, so let's not cover old ground.

    That said, what I find mega curious about the above is that Brexit was sold in part to be the opposite of what you are describing. Pre-Brexit we were doing a whopping amount of trade with our closest neighbours because that made sense due to the simplicity of trading in the single market and also logistically because most of the transport could be done by road (with an on tap haulage labour source) rather than by air or sea.

    Post Brexit, the promise is that instead of drinking French wine we can ship it from Australia, who needs lamb from Wales when you can bring it from New South Wales ... makes no sense to me, but that's the darling argument of the Brexiteers.

    Mining more coal anywhere seems like a bad idea to me, whether it be in Wales or anywhere else.

    If you have someone in Pakistan earning £1 a day and you want that work done in the UK by someone earning £9 an hour (+ pension, + Employer NI, + much else) then you won't be paying 'a bit' more, it's a huge change. Furthermore, if you make that stuff here, you wouldn't be able to export it anywhere, because other countries would simply still buy from Pakistan.

    To clarify, I am not beating the drum for someone in Pakistan to be earning £1 a day, merely making it clear that what you portray as simple is not simple.

    It is telling that the device that you used to outline the above was almost certainly assembled out east, even if designed in the west.

    If you want the above, you need a revolution in this country to change everyone's outlook on spend and a complete change in the way global finance and commerce works. You've got to convince the folk that spend £8 billion at Primark every year that it's not a good idea.

    Before Brexit and the pandemic we had low unemployment in this country, we used EU labour to supplement that of our own population. I dare say a lot of British people don't want to be living in the backend of Lincolnshire, doing 12 hour days in the fields, it's not in my life plan, is it in yours?

    I have yet to meet a Brit who wants to do any of these jobs, they always want their fellow countrymen to do them instead of someone born in another country, for reasons they don't articulate very well.
     
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  16. WillPS

    WillPS TowersStreet Member

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    Pretty terrible environments to work in tho. Hardly 'leveling up' is it?
     
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  17. GaryH

    GaryH TowersStreet Member

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    Coal mining? No, its a horrible environment and im not suggesting we reopen all the pits and start digging out the black gold again, but, there are still places that use it. For example, in Devon, the steam trains which run down here need to use Welsh coal. It burns far better than imported coal, so there is still a demand, allbeit a small one, but its an example anyway.

    All I am trying to say is that the West (not just the UK) has got used to this cheap, throw it away culture, and if its one thing we did right in the past, it was to reuse and recycle. Glass bottles were taken back to shops for a refund, we repaired clothes, electricals etc, whereas now, its so cheap we just throw them into landfill.

    What i'm saying is that if this means we pay a few quid more for a product which lasts, can be repaired, is made more locally and results in more people in jobs, more paying taxes, and less waste going in the bin, surely this a good thing for everyone?
     
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  18. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    Are they burning Welsh coal now?

    On board with all of that, but I don't understand what this has got to do with Brexit. The largest bottle return scheme in the world is in Germany. The Pfand scheme is hugely successful and is being transitioned out across the EU.

    There are complexities with repairing electricals Vs fifty years ago. if you've got a 60in LCD, it's not as straightforward to repair as a valve set. If it's software driven, it's even tougher to maintain longer term. As technology gets more advanced, it's more difficult to maintain.

    Fast fashion is a bug bear of mine too. I spend very little on clothes, only replacing when I need to, ignoring fashion trends (as anyone who knows me will attest to). You can still buy expensive clothes that will last a lifetime, but that doesn't appeal to many for a multitude of reasons (none that I can think of related to Brussels).

    Again, lost as to what this has to do with the EU and further suggests that for many a vote for Brexit was a proxy for things to go back to how they used to be, which won't happen on the back of that referendum, if anything it will make it worse, we're "Going Global", buying more crap we don't need from further flung corners of the globe.
     
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  19. GaryH

    GaryH TowersStreet Member

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    I was speaking to one of the drivers last year (or might have been year before covid) and he was saying they buy in Welsh coal as it burns much better and is of a much higher quality.
     
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  20. Tom

    Tom TowersStreet Member

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    The combined concept of jobs going unfilled, 'skills shortages' and people claiming unemployment benefit is alien to me.

    It would be more accurate to say that people don't want to do the job for what is being paid, and crucially people on certain benefits are allowed to make that choice at all.
     
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