Dave
TS Founding Member
For most people in the west that wasn’t a thing until the 19th century in law and 20th century in practice.
Anyway way off topic.
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[🌎 Universal GB] General Discussion
For most people in the west that wasn’t a thing until the 19th century in law and 20th century in practice.
Anyway way off topic.
Bowser
TS Member
I seem to recall the 3rd park obligation was again reduced and they have another 10+ years to commence construction so i'd be surprised if this pressures them into dropping billions on something that can't possibly be profitable, especially when they're only just starting to get the 2nd park in shape after 25 years.
More likely they'll announce major projects at the existing parks in the upcoming years such as the rumoured Avatar attraction.
What's this btw and is it something you can share?
One of the Universal Creative principal designers, Majid Sarmast, published a portfolio of his work which included artwork for a themed land and attraction which were obviously based on Rivendell from Lord of the Rings. The artwork has a copyright date of 2022 marked on it, although that might be different from when he did the designs. Mr Sarmast’s portfolio is no longer available online so I’m not sure of the ethics of me posting it, as obviously I have no ownership of the work. It might mean nothing, of course, but at some point one of the senior Universal Creative designers has worked on a highly themed land and an attraction which is based on Lord of the Rings.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
I suspect you are depressingly accurate. MPs rarely give anything serious thought until it arrives in their inbox attached to a strongly worded letter from a local chamber of commerce or a angry constituent.
The strategy you suggest, "Support them, but support us too", is precisely the line Merlin has been feeding them for the last two years regarding the VAT cut. The problem is that the government has now effectively said: "We will support Universal with hard cash for infrastructure, but you can whistle for your tax cut." That changes the dynamic from "rising tide" to "playing favourites". Now that the SDO is laid, the reality of that disparity moves from hypothetical to legislative.
The SDO explicitly mandates the delivery of the specific infrastructure projects, the upgraded Wixams station, the A421 relief works, the slip roads, as conditions of the development.
We know from the government's own announcement in June that the public purse is picking up the tab for the "enabling infrastructure" to secure the investment. The SDO is the legal mechanism that allows that infrastructure to be built. By laying the SDO, the government is legally committing to the physical reality of those projects.
The reported figure for these costs is consistently, at least, ÂŁ500 million.
Universal Studios UK theme park given planning permission in Bedfordshire
Attraction part-funded with ÂŁ500m of public investment will be constructed on site of a former brickworks
I promise not to labour the point further, but I feel compelled to address the assertion that this is "standard procedure" and that suggestions otherwise are inaccurate.
The specific constitutional hazard I am highlighting, where the law becomes active before Parliament has had a realistic chance to object, is entirely a product of laying the Instrument yesterday, 48 hours before the Christmas recess.
If the Ministry had simply waited until the House returned in January to lay the Instrument, the 21 day convention and the 40 day prayer period would have run concurrently while Parliament was actually sitting. Scrutiny would have been possible before implementation. Choosing this specific week means they have ensured the objection window only effectively opens after the law is already active. That is a choice, not a coincidence.
I am afraid I must be incredibly pedantic here, because words have meanings.
Framing government-funded infrastructure upgrades that primarily benefit a single commercial operator as "state subsidies" isn't misleading; it is the economic definition of the term.
Under the Subsidy Control Act 2022 (which replaced EU State Aid rules), a subsidy exists if:
If I build a driveway that connects your house to the main road, it is infrastructure. If I pay for it out of my own pocket, saving you the cost so you can run your business, it is a subsidy to you.
I am not a dog with a bone; I am a goose with a grievance regarding due process. I have responded to questions I've been asked and to challenges to my points.
It is entirely possible to want the outcome of a world class theme park whilst simultaneously being critical of the method used to achieve it (bypassing scrutiny and using taxpayers' money). That isn't "bulldozing" or being "anti-project", it is nuance.
However, as @rob@rar suggests, the die is cast. The SDO is laid. The money is pledged. We are getting a theme park.
Let us hope that Majid Sarmast's artwork was indeed the blueprint, because if we have sacrificed half a billion pounds and local democracy just to get a Minion Land and a Fast & Furious supercharged clone, I shall be very cross indeed.
Quote of the week!
But in agreement...yes, all for it, but do it by the rules.
My usual worry of doom in all of this though.
If the massive bubble pops as expected, and the markets go hard woopsie, will this actually still happen?
Be confident it is being done by the rules.
Because they never had any intention of building it so you can take anything that they claimed with a massive pinch of salt.
The Park Itself
Bowser
TS Member
DLP has approximately 15 million visitors a year so I think achieving half of that initially is a realistic proposition for the UKs first 365 theme park.
Assuming consistent entry every day it’s less than 25,000 visitors a day. Easily achievable especially in year 1
jon81uk
TS Member
It won't be consistent all year though. Summer will be a bit busier, Halloween a lot busier and winter January February will be fairly quiet.
George W
TS Member
Disneyland Paris has a 12 million population in a 100 mile radius whereas Universal GB will be over double that at 25 million, it also has multiple major UK airports close by Gatwick airport (94 miles), Luton will be the most accessible with it being (20.5 miles) away and a 15 minute train journey (even quicker than Disneyland's high speed CDG train connection) and Heathrow the world's 4th busiest airport under 60 miles away.
Paris does however attract over double the tourists than London so tourism is stronger for DLP's location and ofc it being in mainland Europe.
I think 8.5 million visitors in the first year is attainable, however I do believe there needs to be a couple more attractions than in the concept art otherwise it will have the same capacity issues as the epic universe opening year but they are already starting to address that with expansions.
Paris does however attract over double the tourists than London so tourism is stronger for DLP's location and ofc it being in mainland Europe.
I think 8.5 million visitors in the first year is attainable, however I do believe there needs to be a couple more attractions than in the concept art otherwise it will have the same capacity issues as the epic universe opening year but they are already starting to address that with expansions.
jon81uk
TS Member
Realistically it won't have the same draw as Disneyland Paris. The Universal IPs aren't as big as Disney ones. It also won't have the same base of international transport and hotel availability.
I think it will be popular, but 6-8million to start with feels more realistic.
Benjsh
TS Member
Given the start that Epic Universe has had I'd say starting off with 6 to 7 million visitors will be more than realistic. They won't run this new park at full capacity in year one, so 8.5m does seem a tad optimistic for me. Eventually I can see them getting there though.
In order to get near those figures they are going to need Potter too I would say. As much as I want Middle Earth instead, I'm not silly enough to dismiss the immense reach Potter still has. That headlining franchise alone, backed up by Jurassic World as the main supporting IP, will guarantee strong visitor numbers.
I do have my concerns about the seasonal operations though. January to March in the UK is a very wet and cold experience on the whole. Tourism can be quite light during this time too so they are going to need to think long and hard about this when deciding what attractions they build. I'd even go as far to say that this park will need to have more indoor areas than any other Universal park that currently exists. It rains more in Florida, yes, but that's usually followed up by glorious sunshine that soaks up all the water fairly quickly and dries everyone off. Not so much the case here sadly. If you get wet here in the colder months, chances are you're not going to dry off too quickly, if at all.
Finally I wouldn't read too much into Disney visitor numbers. Universal had to wait years to play catch up to the mouse in Florida. I'm fairly sure DLP will still remain with the highest attendance in Europe.
In order to get near those figures they are going to need Potter too I would say. As much as I want Middle Earth instead, I'm not silly enough to dismiss the immense reach Potter still has. That headlining franchise alone, backed up by Jurassic World as the main supporting IP, will guarantee strong visitor numbers.
I do have my concerns about the seasonal operations though. January to March in the UK is a very wet and cold experience on the whole. Tourism can be quite light during this time too so they are going to need to think long and hard about this when deciding what attractions they build. I'd even go as far to say that this park will need to have more indoor areas than any other Universal park that currently exists. It rains more in Florida, yes, but that's usually followed up by glorious sunshine that soaks up all the water fairly quickly and dries everyone off. Not so much the case here sadly. If you get wet here in the colder months, chances are you're not going to dry off too quickly, if at all.
Finally I wouldn't read too much into Disney visitor numbers. Universal had to wait years to play catch up to the mouse in Florida. I'm fairly sure DLP will still remain with the highest attendance in Europe.
From one of Goose’s many detailed and informative posts yesterday there was a part he found that said infrastructure is being planned for 55,000 people a day.
Obviously some times such as summer and Halloween will be busier than others, but 8.5m annual visitors works out at around 23,000 a day on average, suggesting the park infrastructure is being planned to operate around 50%? That’ll help future proof it for further expansions and visitor growth.
Obviously some times such as summer and Halloween will be busier than others, but 8.5m annual visitors works out at around 23,000 a day on average, suggesting the park infrastructure is being planned to operate around 50%? That’ll help future proof it for further expansions and visitor growth.
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GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
The reference for this in the SDO document is Part 12, Section 60, c, ii, page 74.
The park cannot open unless it has the capacity to host a maximum of 55,000 (per day). This would suggest that this is the park's maximum daily attendance cap.
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Bowser
TS Member
Beijing has colder winters than the UK. I'm no expert on the park but i believe they have 3 outdoor coasters than can all operate in lower temperatures than things typically do in the UK so you'd have to imagine whatever is built outside will have the same considerations.
Equally the majority of attractions beyond that seem to be indoors so i wouldn't be surprised if overall we end up with a very similar park, right down to the Jurassic Park dark ride and outdoor coaster, launched outdoor coaster, predominantly indoor Minions area , one large Waterworld or other show and a bear themed indoor area, albeit not a panda.
Personally the November - March window is one of the aspects i'm most looking forward to from our new nearest theme park as it's such a drought period in this country, especially now Legoland have decided closing half of their indoor attractions at Xmas is the way forwards.
Tbh I’m not too bothered about the government bunging them some cash, it happens all the time. The huge tax incentives for our film industry goes into the billions (probably one of the reasons why universal chose the UK) and that’s why most huge blockbusters are filmed here, we’re on track to overtake Hollywood by 2030z
I can’t see Merlin objecting tbh, they should however be asking for their own deals. Every local around Towers would appreciate an upgrade to the road network around the park as I’m sure visitors would. Hopefully they start asking for things like that.
I can’t see Merlin objecting tbh, they should however be asking for their own deals. Every local around Towers would appreciate an upgrade to the road network around the park as I’m sure visitors would. Hopefully they start asking for things like that.