The Public Transport Thread

[flyingguitar]

There are alternatives, rather than a bus service.

The rail line to Alton could be ran with something like the Very light railway, it is lower cost that a train but much lower capacity, but it could be a good alternative to a BRT especially since a lot of the route is already there.

Work may be happening on this, some people I have talked to near the Stoke - Leek line have said VLR may be looking at reopening that line (very trust worthy I know). However, it has been discussed a few times with government documents such as here:

https://webapps.stoke.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Transport_Strategy_and_Delivery_Plan_2022_-_2031.pdf

https://www.staffsmoorlands.gov.uk/article/6535/Leek---Stoke-rail-line-bid-submitted-to-Government.com

That is only to Leek, but it isn't that much of a stretch to go to Alton considering the heritage railway has a lot of that line covered. It's then just Oakamoor tunnel which is the biggest hurdle and a few miles to Alton. This is of course based on the heritage railway allowing them to (although they already own the route down to Leek, so they would have to work together).

 

[JAperson]

the idea of using a very light rail connection could be great, if they can make the economics work. If this technology works out well I can see if being a huge player in UK transport, and this is a potential great usage.

 

[Ash]

the idea of using a very light rail connection could be great, if they can make the economics work. If this technology works out well I can see if being a huge player in UK transport, and this is a potential great usage.

I can’t remember the line but there is an electric train now in service with perfect range and recharging requirements that is almost made to do the job in a clean quiet way shuttling to a new platform at Stoke.

 

[JAperson]

I can’t remember the line but there is an electric train now in service with perfect range and recharging requirements that is almost made to do the job in a clean quiet way shuttling to a new platform at Stoke.

Yes GWR has started running this, and it's great for existing railways, and introducing new service on current lines (or extending/changing routes of current lines), however the cost to lay the tracks and get the signalling infrastructure for a mainline railway like this is very expensive, and less compatible with hills I would assume? I imagine even a regular tram is unlikely to be worth the cost, however VLR is considerably cheaper and so I think it has the best shot of being cost effective to actually build. Coventry City council, who are leading the work on this, seem to suggest it's up to 70-80% cheaper to construct than regular systems, which seems remarkable.
CCC's page on the current original and only project in Coventry: https://www.coventry.gov.uk/coventr...try Very Light Rail,more land for green space.

 

[Ash]

Yes GWR has started running this, and it's great for existing railways, and introducing new service on current lines (or extending/changing routes of current lines), however the cost to lay the tracks and get the signalling infrastructure for a mainline railway like this is very expensive, and less compatible with hills I would assume? I imagine even a regular tram is unlikely to be worth the cost, however VLR is considerably cheaper and so I think it has the best shot of being cost effective to actually build. Coventry City council, who are leading the work on this, seem to suggest it's up to 70-80% cheaper to construct than regular systems, which seems remarkable.
CCC's page on the current original and only project in Coventry: https://www.coventry.gov.uk/coventr...try Very Light Rail,more land for green space.

Although I agree to an extent, the feasibility study suggested the line would just be deemed feasible enough with an extension to cauldon quarry and freight ran back to the mainline.

Or just under feasible with a tram-train type setup, as it would have to run on a regular line at Leekbrook so VLR would be out of the running I believe as they aren’t and won’t be compatible.

VLR for the rest of north staffs though absolutely!

 

[flyingguitar]

Although I agree to an extent, the feasibility study suggested the line would just be deemed feasible enough with an extension to cauldon quarry and freight ran back to the mainline.

Or just under feasible with a tram-train type setup, as it would have to run on a regular line at Leekbrook so VLR would be out of the running I believe as they aren’t and won’t be compatible.

VLR for the rest of north staffs though absolutely!

dose the VLR have a differnt track guage I thought it was standard guage?

if not I can't see any reason it wouldn't be able to run on regular track, network rail requires some prequisits like GSMR, AWS, etc however as it is a herritage line they almost certainly won't have any of those systems, probably using radios, signals, etc as very few has AWS let alone any more complex systems (why have it if most herritage trains don't support the system)

alternativly the track used to be double track to leek, I wonder if they could have 2 lines going into 2 differnt platforms (perhaps a bay platform for the VLR)

 

[Poisson]

None of it solves the headache of getting people from the bottom of the valley to the top.

 

[Ash]

None of it solves the headache of getting people from the bottom of the valley to the top.

The simple solution is buses, using the coach entrance/gatehouse road opposite the station up to the old coach park/project horizon area.

 

[George W]

Someone posted on the Alton towers news and discussion Facebook group that they had confirmation that the X41 won't be running this year to the resort.
This leaves us with one bus a day from Stoke on Trent if they don't cancel that one too that is.
I'm absolutely gutted if this is true, I rely on public transport to get to the park and it was already weak as it was but this will significantly increase the time and hassle and spend to get to the park.
But hey at least they'll make more in their £15 parking tickets by doing this.

 

[Dave]

Someone posted on the Alton towers news and discussion Facebook group that they had confirmation that the X41 won't be running this year to the resort.
This leaves us with one bus a day from Stoke on Trent if they don't cancel that one too that is.
I'm absolutely gutted if this is true, I rely on public transport to get to the park and it was already weak as it was but this will significantly increase the time and hassle and spend to get to the park.
But hey at least they'll make more in their £15 parking tickets by doing this.

AT don’t run the public transport so I doubt this has anything to do with the £15 car park charge.

 

[rob666]

AT don’t run the public transport...

Perhaps they should, as a nod to better access and climate change.

And the Towers will still benefit probably from a reduction in public transport access...which is doubly sad.

 

[Ash]

AT don’t run the public transport so I doubt this has anything to do with the £15 car park charge.

It’s probably why they put the price up…

Worth adding
1) they said the car parking charge originally was to help fund alternatives and the bypass (which never happened)
2) they have offered support for station reinstatement but that is a long way off in any form
3) they likely new about public transport cuts hence the price increase
4) we can’t run major tourist attractions like this anymore…

 

[Thameslink Rail]

I recall in the planning process for The Smiler, Merlin agreed to pay £100k to improve local roads. I would like to see Merlin make a similar agreement to improve local bus services when they next need a big project approving.

 

[QTXAdsy]

I recall in the planning process for The Smiler, Merlin agreed to pay £100k to improve local roads. I would like to see Merlin make a similar agreement to improve local bus services when they next need a big project approving.

Problem is that Merlin have had a revolving door of managers and planners that likely the current batch have likely no clue this exists which they have to do though honestly given how the council has seen changes too, almost bet they have lost track on this too.

 

[George W]

I contacted D&G busses and they have indeed cancelled the X41, this is the UK's biggest theme park and they only have a 1 a day bus from stoke on Trent, they don't need the old heritage Train line, they just need 1 or 2 shuttle buses running to and from uttoxter train station and being back some more bus services and that would work wonders but again towers is known to be a 'drive to' location, why would they want to get rid of their captive parking fees.

Again I know Merlin doesn't control D&G but surely sorting out some transport should come with leading the UK's biggest theme park (for now).

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

It’s probably why they put the price up…

Worth adding
1) they said the car parking charge originally was to help fund alternatives and the bypass (which never happened)
2) they have offered support for station reinstatement but that is a long way off in any form
3) they likely new about public transport cuts hence the price increase

Trying to follow the logic of this conspiracy theory is starting to give me a headache.

A commercial operator (D&G) cuts a route. Why do commercial operators cut routes? Because they're losing money. Why do they lose money? Because nobody is using them.

Your theory suggests Alton Towers raised the parking price to exploit the passengers forced off this cancelled bus, but if the bus was empty enough to be cancelled, there aren't any passengers to exploit.

4) we can’t run major tourist attractions like this anymore…

I'm afraid the UK leisure industry would beg to differ.

Silverstone is in the middle of the Northamptonshire countryside. Public transport is abysmal. Parking for the British Grand Prix costs £130+ for the weekend. On a non-event day parking is "from" £10. They do operate a year round shuttle bus from Milton Keynes... Costing £15 for a return journey.

Glastonbury Festival is on a farm in Somerset. Parking is £60.

The NEC in Birmingham charges £18.95 (pre booked) or £21.95 on the day for standard parking.

The Ironbridge Museums (there are 9 of them), in a rural remote village in Shropshire, charge £6 per museum, per day.

Even when Universal UK gets its shiny new train station, don't for one second think they won't charge a premium for parking. If anything, they'll charge more to incentivise rail travel (and because they know you have no other choice if you have luggage).

Major tourist attractions and venues run exactly like this all over the UK. They rely on the car because they're built in locations where land is cheap (nowhere near a city centre).

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I contacted D&G busses and they have indeed cancelled the X41, this is the UK's biggest theme park and they only have a 1 a day bus from stoke on Trent, they don't need the old heritage Train line, they just need 1 or 2 shuttle buses running to and from uttoxter train station and being back some more bus services and that would work wonders but again towers is known to be a 'drive to' location, why would they want to get rid of their captive parking fees.

Again I know Merlin doesn't control D&G but surely sorting out some transport should come with leading the UK's biggest theme park (for now).

Running a bespoke transport service is an operational nightmare for a business which isn't a transport company.

If you want to make a shuttle from Uttoxeter viable, you need high capacity between 09:00 and 11:00, and high capacity between 17:00 and 19:00. The six hours in between? You've got a fleet of buses and expensive drivers sitting in a car park doing absolutely nothing. It's incredibly expensive and inefficient.

Again, the conspiracy that Towers wants to force people to drive to collect parking fees doesn't hold water. The demographic most likely to use a bus (teenagers, students, those without cars) can't simply choose to drive and pay for parking if the bus is cancelled. They just don't visit.

Merlin would much rather have those people in the park spending money on entry, food and merchandise than have them sitting at home in they can't get there. They aren't protecting parking revenue, they're losing gate revenue. Just not enough to warrant the expensive to finance their own alternative provision.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

I think the question we should be asking is why people aren't using the buses and looking at the current situation with the 32a I can see a few issues:

1. It is badly advertised, it gets a brief mention on the how to get there page with incorrect details (it talks about the 32x which is a different route that doesn't go to Towers and it says that buses from Towers go from Hanley without mentioning they stop at Stoke Station).

Underneath the page says
"You don’t need a car to join in the fun at Alton Towers theme park and resort. The resort has excellent public transport links. Young visitors, large groups and environmentally conscious visitors travelling to the resort can do so by train.
There are three train stations near Alton Towers: Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby. Guests arriving at Stafford or Uttoxeter railway station, visitors will need to contact a local taxi service for the rest of the journey to the resort."

This is all nonsense, one bus a day is not excellent public transport links. Also, suggesting people need to take a taxi from Stafford Station is ludicrous, I dare not think how much that would cost.

2. Having a once a day bus service makes people worried the bus might not turn up (or they might miss it) and they will need to pay for a taxi to get home at great expense.

3. The bus times do not match up with actual opening hours. On opening weekend, the bus leaves Towers at 17:40 but the park doesn't close until 20:00 defeating the point of Alton After Dark.

Unfortunately, this is a chicken and egg situation where there isn't demand because the service isn't good and the service isn't good because there is no demand and I don't see this getting solved unless Staffordshire County Council (who do subsidise the 32a along with other routes around the county) put pressure on the resort (potentially by making bus services a requirement of planning permission for new projects) to improve services, I'd hope local residents would support this as it would not only improve bus services for them but also reduce traffic (I can't think they like having a convoy of thousands of cars through their villages every day).

 

[Poisson]

I'm not sure Towers would want to get an O Licence not pay someone the massive amount required to be the holder of it, then fork out on buses themselves.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

To clarify, I am not suggesting Towers operate buses themselves, I am suggesting they should be expected to make a financial contribution to bus services in the area.