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Serious questions and musings

I don't know the field you're going in to or the background to these offers but generally my advice would be

If you get offered a permanent job and that's what you'd prefer, take it. The other employer would probably understand, and if they didn't, so what? They don't own you

As for future jobs and it being on your CV, it's unlikely to be an issue and if you even get questioned on it, you can just say you went in knowingly that it would only be until another job started, that you made the change for better prospects, better opportunities, better challenge, etc. They're hardly going to call the old employer up and be told "actually matt said he'd do 6 months but only did 4 so you should avoid him"
 
Give it a shot mate.
If nothing else, it is further interview practice.
This is a pivotal time in your life, you are very much allowed to look after number one in such a situation.
Go for it and good luck.
 
Matt N said:
I’ve got a bit of a dilemma that I’m pondering this afternoon and I’d appreciate some guidance, if anyone wouldn’t mind helping me out. I trust the good folks of TowersStreet to give me honest, unabashed advice!

As some of you might know, I scored a temporary job offer last week that I was really happy with. Prior to knowing about this, however, I had applied to some permanent roles… I had a first stage Teams interview for one last week, and that one has now offered me a second stage interview on-site in their office.

Now of course, there’s every chance I won’t get offered the job after the interview. But on the off chance I did get offered a job, what I was wondering is; would it look terrible for me to only spend a very short period (i.e. a couple of weeks or so) in the temporary role if I wanted to take the permanent opportunity if I was offered it?

I’ll admit I’m not certain that I’d want to take this particular role if I was offered it. It’s probably a worse commute than the temporary role I’ve scored (the permanent role is a 45 minute minimum drive that could well turn into 1hr+ on a bad day, whereas the temporary role is a 25 minute drive to a train station and an easy 25 minute train into a city centre), and it’s also doing something that is less close to things I’ve encountered at undergrad and postgrad whereas the temporary role seems like work that’s more within my current skillset (albeit still with some learning opportunities), so I’m undecided on whether I’d take the offer if I was given it.

But on the other hand, part of me thinks that permanent is always preferable to temporary, what with the benefits and security a permanent job would offer, and the work still sounds intriguing even if it’s less close to anything I’ve currently done. I was reassured in the interview that I would be heavily trained, and that the interviewer himself, like me, previously had no experience in the subject matter of the job prior to joining!

So my thought is; if I did take a permanent job offer and only stayed in the temporary job for a very short period, would it look terrible? Would it make me an awful person and make me look bad to the temporary employers?
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You only need to worry about “look bad” if you have long term ambition to work for that company (or if the career area is a small world where people talk to each other).

If it’s neither of those things then go with the job that best suits your needs. If the temporary role is a better fit and you can afford the risk then go with that one. If you can’t afford the risk take the permanent job.

Also bare in mind at the moment from a practical point of view all jobs are temporary contracts until you have worked there for 2 years as you can be fired for no reason up to 2 years employment (this is changing but it hasn’t yet).
 
I'd do what is best for you Matt. If you do leave the first company after two weeks it will be a bit inconvenient for them but they will understand that you would prefer a permanent role. That's a risk they have taken by choosing to make your offered role a temporary one.

On the other hand, don't just take a different job because it's permanent if you think you might be better fit for, and would enjoy more, the temporary role. Very often temporary contracts are extended or an opening will appear before the end of the contract you can slot right into anyway.

Finally, you don't have to, and I wouldn't recommend, putting a role you left after two weeks on your CV. There's just no need and it wouldn't be of benefit.
 
Thanks, all.

There’s a lot to ponder. Both jobs fall within the basic remit of data, but other than that, they’re quite different and in different industries.

The temporary job is with a civil service body helping to develop data visualisation and analysis solutions (e.g. interactive dashboards) using Python, SQL and other tools to display insights to decision makers. With my undergraduate degree in Computer Science, I wonder if something more code-based and based around data pipelines and visualisation fits my undergrad/postgrad skillset combination better.

Whereas the permanent job revolves around generative AI development (something I have little to no experience in working with) and is working with a consultancy firm who mainly seem to deal in defence.

I wouldn’t say natural language processing was something I was overly infatuated with when we did it in Cardiff, and I’d probably instinctively pick other areas of the data field over it. I’ve also never dealt with any of the other generative AI-specific tools and things such as prompt engineering before. To be honest, the job sounds more primarily centred around generative AI than I expected based on the job description when I applied for it, and it would be quite a risk to take a gamble on something I’ve never really done before, even if the employer insists that I would be fully trained.

But on the other hand, it is a permanent role, it still sounds potentially interesting, and I wonder if something working with generative AI might be more future proof than many roles. To be honest, I am quite agnostic about what I do as long as it falls within the basic remit of my academic background; there are a number of data-related roles I would very happily do, and I’m not particularly fussy about the industry either!

There are the other things to consider as well. The temporary role is a nice city centre commute into Bristol, which would only be a 25 minute train from Severn Tunnel Junction railway station (which is itself a 25 minute drive from where I live), whereas the permanent role is located somewhere off the M5 between Bristol and Gloucester that would take a minimum of 45 minutes to drive to on a clear run and would likely take over an hour on a bad one. I’m not a confident driver, particularly on the motorways, and if I’m being honest, the idea of a long motorway drive fills me with dread. The permanent role is 1 day in the office, whereas the temporary role is 2 (and would go up to 3 if I was made permanent). This isn’t really an issue for me, but interestingly, the temporary role actually pays more (and quite significantly more at that, which surprised me given that it’s a temp role and the public sector is not exactly known for generous renumeration!).

In terms of whether I can weather any potential instability a temporary job throws my way; seeing as I live with my parents and have minimal outgoings, I definitely can. I was also told by both the recruiter and the interviewer that the job had a high, albeit not guaranteed, chance of leading to a permanent opportunity at the end of the 6 months.

This is certainly not a situation I ever imagined being in, anyhow… all I’d heard was how awful the job market was for grads and how nobody is finding a job, so seeing as I do not exactly have a remarkable CV by any stretch of the imagination, I pictured myself searching for far longer and I did not ponder having to weigh up and compare multiple jobs.

I still may not even get offered the permanent role, though (in fact, it’s probably quite likely), so I guess the decision may be made for me within time!
 
Matt N said:
Thanks, all.

There’s a lot to ponder. Both jobs fall within the basic remit of data, but other than that, they’re quite different and in different industries.

The temporary job is with a civil service body helping to develop data visualisation and analysis solutions (e.g. interactive dashboards) using Python, SQL and other tools to display insights to decision makers. With my undergraduate degree in Computer Science, I wonder if something more code-based and based around data pipelines and visualisation fits my undergrad/postgrad skillset combination better.

Whereas the permanent job revolves around generative AI development (something I have little to no experience in working with) and is working with a consultancy firm who mainly seem to deal in defence.

I wouldn’t say natural language processing was something I was overly infatuated with when we did it in Cardiff, and I’d probably instinctively pick other areas of the data field over it. I’ve also never dealt with any of the other generative AI-specific tools and things such as prompt engineering before. To be honest, the job sounds more primarily centred around generative AI than I expected based on the job description when I applied for it, and it would be quite a risk to take a gamble on something I’ve never really done before, even if the employer insists that I would be fully trained.

But on the other hand, it is a permanent role, it still sounds potentially interesting, and I wonder if something working with generative AI might be more future proof than many roles. To be honest, I am quite agnostic about what I do as long as it falls within the basic remit of my academic background; there are a number of data-related roles I would very happily do, and I’m not particularly fussy about the industry either!

There are the other things to consider as well. The temporary role is a nice city centre commute into Bristol, which would only be a 25 minute train from Severn Tunnel Junction railway station (which is itself a 25 minute drive from where I live), whereas the permanent role is located somewhere off the M5 between Bristol and Gloucester that would take a minimum of 45 minutes to drive to on a clear run and would likely take over an hour on a bad one. I’m not a confident driver, particularly on the motorways, and if I’m being honest, the idea of a long motorway drive fills me with dread. The permanent role is 1 day in the office, whereas the temporary role is 2 (and would go up to 3 if I was made permanent). This isn’t really an issue for me, but interestingly, the temporary role actually pays more (and quite significantly more at that, which surprised me given that it’s a temp role and the public sector is not exactly known for generous renumeration!).

In terms of whether I can weather any potential instability a temporary job throws my way; seeing as I live with my parents and have minimal outgoings, I definitely can. I was also told by both the recruiter and the interviewer that the job had a high, albeit not guaranteed, chance of leading to a permanent opportunity at the end of the 6 months.

This is certainly not a situation I ever imagined being in, anyhow… all I’d heard was how awful the job market was for grads and how nobody is finding a job, so seeing as I do not exactly have a remarkable CV by any stretch of the imagination, I pictured myself searching for far longer and I did not ponder having to weigh up and compare multiple jobs.

I still may not even get offered the permanent role, though (in fact, it’s probably quite likely), so I guess the decision may be made for me within time!
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It sounds to me like you have a much stronger preference for the temporary job. Although I think it's worth going through the remainder of the recruitment process for the permanent role to learn as much as you can, my recommendation is to follow your gut instinct here.

Also the fact that you are more comfortable with the working arrangements for the temporary role than the permanent one - a nice quick railway commute vs. a 45-minute motorway journey - is massive. You'll be doing this week in, week out, and if you find this aspect of things isn't working for you there's very little you can do about it (except leave).

You also want to think about your next role as an investment in your skillset - in which area do you think you are you most keen to develop your skills? Then even if the temporary role ends you will have that work experience to put on a CV to find the next suitable position. If you're worried about instability I suggest putting aside a chunk of your paycheque each month as a 'contingency' fund. As you say, you do have the advantage that you are living at home and can afford to weather a gap in employment - compare this with someone who has a mortgage to pay and children to keep fed and clothed. You don't need to make those sorts of compromises for job security at this stage in your life.
 
I apologise, as it appears that only I ever seem to ask questions in this thread, but another serious musing occurred to me after going out for a family meal this afternoon.

My cousin, who is just shy of 2 years my senior, now has 2 children. One daughter who is 2.5 years old, and one daughter who is 5 weeks old. And being with them at the table today made me realise something… I don’t particularly like children. I felt really uncomfortable when my cousin’s older daughter sat close to me, and didn’t find myself wanting to talk to her, and I also found myself feeling a bit repelled by my cousin’s younger baby and not really wanting to hold her or get close to her.

I guess what I wanted to ask as my first question is; does it make me inhumane or a terrible person if I feel uncomfortable around young kids and don’t feel particularly inclined to interact with them? When I see the rest of my family cooing over the baby and chatting away and playing games with my cousin’s older daughter, it makes me feel that way. They’re both perfectly nice, well-behaved kids and have never done anything wrong, but I don’t feel at all inclined to interact closely with them and I feel rather uncomfortable around them. Now I was not the only person to not hold the baby (my dad politely rejected, saying that “I only held my own children because I had to, so I’d rather not hold somebody else’s”, and my grandad didn’t hold her either), but even my dad looked perfectly comfortable pulling silly faces and talking to my cousin’s older daughter. But I just didn’t feel at all comfortable around them, and it made me worry that I’m somehow missing some sort of emotional switch or something, or that I’m a huge hypocrite (I was a young child once, after all).

The other thing that I was thinking came after the conversation of grandchildren and reproductive choices came up at the table. My nan was saying about how my grandad’s brother was chatting to them the other day, and expressed considerable bitterness at how my nan and grandad have two great grandchildren at 69 and 72, and he’s in his mid-70s and doesn’t even have any grandchildren. While she didn’t explicitly say it, my nan implicitly implied that she thought people who didn’t give their parents grandchildren were selfish, and that everyone should give their parents grandchildren. She said things like “You can’t help not being able to have children of your own, but even then, you could still adopt”, and “[Relative] and [relative’s] daughters are in their 30s now, and they haven’t given their parents any grandchildren. [Relative] and [relative] would be brilliant grandparents, but they’ll probably never get that privilege now”.

If I’m being honest, I’m almost 100% sure that I don’t ever want children. If I think of where I see myself as an older adult, I do not see myself as a father. But when I hear my nan say things like this, I really worry about disappointing my family if I don’t have children. I’ve talked to her and other members of my family about not being that comfortable around children before and being unsure if I ever want to be a father, and my nan has said things like “It’s different when it’s your own child; you’d definitely feel differently” and “You’d be such a brilliant father, Matthew”. As much as my own parents have always said that they only ever want me to be happy whenever the topic of my future aspirations has come up, I feel like they also would love grandchildren and I’d always worry about disappointing them.

I guess what I’m asking is; does it make me selfish if I don’t want children and can’t ever imagine myself as a father?
 
From what I gather @Matt N, you’re a young guy, so your perceptions might change naturally over the next 10, 20 years.

But, I wouldn’t recommend trying to change your outlook to appease or please others. Having kids is massively life-altering, and ideally should only be undertaken with real commitment and zeal.

Older relatives shouldn’t be appeased simply because they’re old. People don’t reach an age when they bypass introspection and self-reflection.

Also, your comfort around children and desire to have your own children are two different things. They can align (as it sounds like they do for you now), but can also go in completely different directions, and it’s healthy to let them develop naturally.

So, in a nutshell. Don’t sweat it now. Don’t be surprised if things change. Follow your gut.
 
When I was in my early 20s I was pretty sure I didn't want to have children. Children are messy, chaotic and noisy and constantly demanding to be the centre of attention. I can see why some people gain energy from being part of a lively, chaotic household but that was never me. Nearly 20 years later, that conviction has never wavered. Oh yes, I got all of those same comments - 'You'll change your mind one day', 'You'll feel differently when it's your own children' - it's even worse as a woman because society is ingrained to assume that you must have some sort of primal instinct to procreate. Well, I just didn't, and I always knew I didn't. For people to suggest that you don't know your own mind as an adult is actually pretty offensive.

On to the whole 'selfish' thing. There are 8.14 billion people on this small ball of rock, and it is being bled dry. This planet cannot cope with any more people. I fail to see how it's anything other than selfish to add to that burden, just because you think your genetic makeup is so fantastic that you must create lots of copies of yourself to fill up space when you're no longer around. And let me get this straight - you do not owe your parents grandchildren. People do not have children in order to earn the privilege of becoming grandparents later in life. In fact, you don't owe your parents anything. You cannot let them dictate how you live, what you do for work, whether you marry, whom you marry (if you do), and what sort of life you build for yourself. Your life, your choice.
 
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I had to very gently explain to my mum that providing her with grandchildren was no reason for me to breed.
She accepted it when I put it to her like that.
 
@Matt N I'm a mother and I can tell you small children are AWFUL. One end pukes, the other end defecates, and it screams constantly while doing both. Toddlers are argumentative little sods with zero self awareness, and primary schoolers are know it alls.

They get more interesting/easier to talk to when they hit about 12. Doesn't mean you have to have any, but not finding the small ones interesting is perfectly normal. I reckon lots of people feel the same but it's taboo to say, especially as a woman.

(Obviously I love my chimp to bits, especially now she's 14 and we have more in common, but I've never really liked other people's kids)
 
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Matt N said:
I apologise, as it appears that only I ever seem to ask questions in this thread, but another serious musing occurred to me after going out for a family meal this afternoon.

My cousin, who is just shy of 2 years my senior, now has 2 children. One daughter who is 2.5 years old, and one daughter who is 5 weeks old. And being with them at the table today made me realise something… I don’t particularly like children. I felt really uncomfortable when my cousin’s older daughter sat close to me, and didn’t find myself wanting to talk to her, and I also found myself feeling a bit repelled by my cousin’s younger baby and not really wanting to hold her or get close to her.

I guess what I wanted to ask as my first question is; does it make me inhumane or a terrible person if I feel uncomfortable around young kids and don’t feel particularly inclined to interact with them? When I see the rest of my family cooing over the baby and chatting away and playing games with my cousin’s older daughter, it makes me feel that way. They’re both perfectly nice, well-behaved kids and have never done anything wrong, but I don’t feel at all inclined to interact closely with them and I feel rather uncomfortable around them. Now I was not the only person to not hold the baby (my dad politely rejected, saying that “I only held my own children because I had to, so I’d rather not hold somebody else’s”, and my grandad didn’t hold her either), but even my dad looked perfectly comfortable pulling silly faces and talking to my cousin’s older daughter. But I just didn’t feel at all comfortable around them, and it made me worry that I’m somehow missing some sort of emotional switch or something, or that I’m a huge hypocrite (I was a young child once, after all).

The other thing that I was thinking came after the conversation of grandchildren and reproductive choices came up at the table. My nan was saying about how my grandad’s brother was chatting to them the other day, and expressed considerable bitterness at how my nan and grandad have two great grandchildren at 69 and 72, and he’s in his mid-70s and doesn’t even have any grandchildren. While she didn’t explicitly say it, my nan implicitly implied that she thought people who didn’t give their parents grandchildren were selfish, and that everyone should give their parents grandchildren. She said things like “You can’t help not being able to have children of your own, but even then, you could still adopt”, and “[Relative] and [relative’s] daughters are in their 30s now, and they haven’t given their parents any grandchildren. [Relative] and [relative] would be brilliant grandparents, but they’ll probably never get that privilege now”.

If I’m being honest, I’m almost 100% sure that I don’t ever want children. If I think of where I see myself as an older adult, I do not see myself as a father. But when I hear my nan say things like this, I really worry about disappointing my family if I don’t have children. I’ve talked to her and other members of my family about not being that comfortable around children before and being unsure if I ever want to be a father, and my nan has said things like “It’s different when it’s your own child; you’d definitely feel differently” and “You’d be such a brilliant father, Matthew”. As much as my own parents have always said that they only ever want me to be happy whenever the topic of my future aspirations has come up, I feel like they also would love grandchildren and I’d always worry about disappointing them.

I guess what I’m asking is; does it make me selfish if I don’t want children and can’t ever imagine myself as a father?
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the answer to all your questions is: no, you can do what you like with your life and feel however you feel (within the realms of the law - and sometimes even outside of it).
 
Matt N said:
I apologise, as it appears that only I ever seem to ask questions in this thread, but another serious musing occurred to me after going out for a family meal this afternoon.

My cousin, who is just shy of 2 years my senior, now has 2 children. One daughter who is 2.5 years old, and one daughter who is 5 weeks old. And being with them at the table today made me realise something… I don’t particularly like children. I felt really uncomfortable when my cousin’s older daughter sat close to me, and didn’t find myself wanting to talk to her, and I also found myself feeling a bit repelled by my cousin’s younger baby and not really wanting to hold her or get close to her.

I guess what I wanted to ask as my first question is; does it make me inhumane or a terrible person if I feel uncomfortable around young kids and don’t feel particularly inclined to interact with them? When I see the rest of my family cooing over the baby and chatting away and playing games with my cousin’s older daughter, it makes me feel that way. They’re both perfectly nice, well-behaved kids and have never done anything wrong, but I don’t feel at all inclined to interact closely with them and I feel rather uncomfortable around them. Now I was not the only person to not hold the baby (my dad politely rejected, saying that “I only held my own children because I had to, so I’d rather not hold somebody else’s”, and my grandad didn’t hold her either), but even my dad looked perfectly comfortable pulling silly faces and talking to my cousin’s older daughter. But I just didn’t feel at all comfortable around them, and it made me worry that I’m somehow missing some sort of emotional switch or something, or that I’m a huge hypocrite (I was a young child once, after all).

The other thing that I was thinking came after the conversation of grandchildren and reproductive choices came up at the table. My nan was saying about how my grandad’s brother was chatting to them the other day, and expressed considerable bitterness at how my nan and grandad have two great grandchildren at 69 and 72, and he’s in his mid-70s and doesn’t even have any grandchildren. While she didn’t explicitly say it, my nan implicitly implied that she thought people who didn’t give their parents grandchildren were selfish, and that everyone should give their parents grandchildren. She said things like “You can’t help not being able to have children of your own, but even then, you could still adopt”, and “[Relative] and [relative’s] daughters are in their 30s now, and they haven’t given their parents any grandchildren. [Relative] and [relative] would be brilliant grandparents, but they’ll probably never get that privilege now”.

If I’m being honest, I’m almost 100% sure that I don’t ever want children. If I think of where I see myself as an older adult, I do not see myself as a father. But when I hear my nan say things like this, I really worry about disappointing my family if I don’t have children. I’ve talked to her and other members of my family about not being that comfortable around children before and being unsure if I ever want to be a father, and my nan has said things like “It’s different when it’s your own child; you’d definitely feel differently” and “You’d be such a brilliant father, Matthew”. As much as my own parents have always said that they only ever want me to be happy whenever the topic of my future aspirations has come up, I feel like they also would love grandchildren and I’d always worry about disappointing them.

I guess what I’m asking is; does it make me selfish if I don’t want children and can’t ever imagine myself as a father?
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You don't have to answer this, but it has sparked my next thought, what is your interest level in relationships, marriage or family life in future? Is it purely that children are weird little things or do you also have little interest in marriage as well? Nothing wrong with it either way, everyone should be happy doing what makes them happy, some people want a life partner but no children, others see the partner as important just for the creation of offspring, other people are happily single their whole life.

Also there is often a large cross-over between those of us with Rollercoaster enthusiam or other niche hobbies and not being particularly social. For some people being social with people who share their interests is hard so socialising with a smaller child who may not even be able to hold a coherent conversation is even worse!
 
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jon81uk said:
You don't have to answer this, but it has sparked my next thought, what is your interest level in relationships, marriage or family life in future? Is it purely that children are weird little things or do you also have little interest in marriage as well? Nothing wrong with it either way, everyone should be happy doing what makes them happy, some people want a life partner but no children, others see the partner as important just for the creation of offspring, other people are happily single their whole life.
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That’s an interesting question, and not one I’ve given a huge amount of thought.

To be honest, I’m quite happily single. I’ve never dated, despite being 22, and I don’t feel any huge desire to change that; I often think I enjoy my own company a bit too much to want to be in a serious relationship!

If the right person fell into my lap, I maybe wouldn’t rule out ever having a relationship, but the fact I’m single is something I’m quite content with and feel no great desire to actively try and change. I’m perfectly happy with just having a close family, friendly professional colleagues and the ongoing friendship I garner from TS and the other forums I frequent! I wouldn’t even really say I have a huge number of close friends or an overly active social life, but being a bit of an introvert, I’m honestly content with that. I like socialising with friends and family very much, but I need plenty of time to be left with my own company as well, and too much socialisation leaves me feeling drained.

But in answer to your question, my thought process probably leans more toward “children are weird little things”, and my stronger aversion is probably toward having children, but even still, I don’t have much interest in seeking a serious relationship either. I wouldn’t rule out ever having a relationship, but if I imagine myself in 10 years’ time, I pretty much always imagine myself single, and being single is always how I’ve pictured my life panning out.
Also there is often a large cross-over between those of us with Rollercoaster enthusiam or other niche hobbies and not being particularly social. For some people being social with people who share their interests is hard so socialising with a smaller child who may not even be able to hold a coherent conversation is even worse!
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This is a good point.

The fact I’m diagnosed autistic, so communication with older adults and peers doesn’t come the most naturally to me anyway, probably doesn’t help. People often say I come across well when I talk to them, so I clearly manage to exude the vibe of someone who can talk to people and communicate well, but it’s not something that comes naturally to me. I think part of why I don’t hugely like children is that I don’t know how to talk to them; my communication “rulebook”, if you will, has been built with adults in mind, and the typical way adults speak to children just seems strange and unnatural to me.
 
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