[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

[Matt N]

Purely anecdotally, I, if anything, think Thorpe is the neglected child at the moment. Yes, Hyperia was a big investment at £18m, but there is currently nothing else in the pipeline that we know about. There were utterances of on-site accommodation, as well as rumours of a new flat replacing Slammer, but they don’t seem to have come to anything concrete yet.

On the topic of Horizon, I’d be surprised if the proposed building was fully canned. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had changed the attraction inside the building, but I imagine the building itself will still come in some capacity given that the spot is not known for its ease of getting planning permission on.

I still think it would be a real mistake for Towers to significantly delay Horizon. Yes, people can go on about there being “other priorities”, but it’s the major attractions that sell and keep people coming back, and if Horizon is delayed beyond 2027 (probably the earliest realistic opening date at this point), you’re looking at 10 years since the park last built a major new ride. That’s unprecedented, and given the park has traded on its major new rides for so many years, that is surely going to have an impact on the bottom line.

I get that some of what’s happened recently needed to happen, but I’m sceptical that the park can last on only refurbishments and rehashes of things from the past (even though it’s new, plenty of people have criticised Toxicator as “Ripsaw in a different colour”). They need some genuinely new, major ride blood to stay relevant and keep people coming back.

 

[rob666]

Thorpe a neglected child???

Massive new coaster and a bloody great expensive ghost train failure to play with recently.
I wish I was that child.

 

[Matt N]

Thorpe a neglected child???

Massive new coaster and a bloody great expensive ghost train failure to play with recently.
I wish I was that child.

Relatively speaking compared to Towers and Chessington, I meant. Still not particularly “neglected” in the grand scheme, but they don’t seem to have much coming in the pipeline at present.

 

[Jb85]

All the parks in the UK get good investment - we can’t deny that. But whether the money is spent wisely is another story

 

[flyingguitar]

My theory is if Project Horizon doesn't go ahead and this small coaster goes into Cbeebies Land could Towers be sold to a new operator its feeling quite similar to 2004 and 2005 adding some smaller additions with Rita and Spinball Whizzer to bolster line-up to potential buyer.

I was doing some other work, (discussing about how legos investment and innovation in the early 2000's brought them from a nearly bankrupt company into the mega toy company we know now) and an old article was part of it, when merlin was brought up by private equity it was a multi company deal with (our favourite ) Blackstone, but also Kirkbi, the company owned by the lego family and who owns lego, at the time they owned 1/3 of the shares. this was from 2019 so thing could have changed (although I don't see much new news) but I would think that this may not be a case when a private equity company buys up a company, to then strip it bear and make a massive profit.
article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48797245

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I was doing some other work, (discussing about how legos investment and innovation in the early 2000's brought them from a nearly bankrupt company into the mega toy company we know now) and an old article was part of it, when merlin was brought up by private equity it was a multi company deal with (our favourite ) Blackstone, but also Kirkbi, the company owned by the lego family and who owns lego, at the time they owned 1/3 of the shares. this was from 2019 so thing could have changed (although I don't see much new news) but I would think that this may not be a case when a private equity company buys up a company, to then strip it bear and make a massive profit.
article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48797245

This is common knowledge. Kirkbi led the buyout, mostly to ensure the safety and ownership of the Legoland parks.

Kirkbi actually own 50% of Merlin Entertainments, with Blackstone and CPPIB being the other partners in the consortium for the buyout. They owned 29.5% before taking Merlin private again.

Merlin taken private in $7.5bn deal — Financier Worldwide

www.financierworldwide.com

The consortium wanted to take Merlin private to allow for greater investment in the company's assets and long-term growth plans. They also aimed to remove Merlin from the daily scrutiny of the public markets.

The idea that Blackstone want out, and are leading the changes at Merlin, fits into the narrative that some members have of the private equity group looking for a quick flip. It conveniently forgets that Blackstone aren't the leading partner in this venture and have no overall control.

There are typically two ways that private equity groups make profit, including Kirkbi which is also one. Either they leverage buyout, pump and dump, floating the entity or selling it onto another buyer. The other option is to build such a valuable asset that it's in your interests to maintain ownership and control.

Private equity groups on their own, are pretty short to mid term focussed. Kirkbi is the wildcard here, who do not want to give away control of the Lego brand again.

The levels of investment we're now witnessing at parks around the world, are the result of the private buyout in 2019. This is what they claimed they wanted to do. Long term growth plans.

I have full faith that Alton Towers has the intention to deliver Project Horizon. I think what is shocking for most people is the intensity and fairly short time period in which Horizon appeared, ramped up, gained planning permission and then... Nothing.

We live during a time where there is a need to provide constant updates, otherwise is something even happening at all? During this time the park have continued to invest in other areas, but that doesn't mean that Horizon is out of the window. It is possible to work on more than one thing at once.

We'll only know for certain what's happening with Horizon either when construction starts, or planning permission lapses, and probably not a moment before.

 

[flyingguitar]

This is common knowledge. Kirkbi led the buyout, mostly to ensure the safety and ownership of the Legoland parks.

Kirkbi actually own 50% of Merlin Entertainments, with Blackstone and CPPIB being the other partners in the consortium for the buyout. They owned 29.5% before taking Merlin private again.

I didn't know, every time it has came up people just say it is owned by blackstone

50% is a lot of ownership

Private equity groups on their own, are pretty short to mid term focussed. Kirkbi is the wildcard here, who do not want to give away control of the Lego brand again.

I suspect it isn't just not wanting to give the lego brand away, lego are quite well known for innovating their company, and investing in their brand,

I have full faith that Alton Towers has the intention to deliver Project Horizon. I think what is shocking for most people is the intensity and fairly short time period in which Horizon appeared, ramped up, gained planning permission and then... Nothing.

We live during a time where there is a need to provide constant updates, otherwise is something even happening at all? During this time the park have continued to invest in other areas, but that doesn't mean that Horizon is out of the window. It is possible to work on more than one thing at once.

We'll only know for certain what's happening with Horizon either when construction starts, or planning permission lapses, and probably not a moment before.

It is also important to remember that that the planning says they have to start construction by the end day, they could do the demolition (removing containers and clearing land) and have one person dig a hole where the foundations will go, and then you have started construction.

tbh I agree that they are waiting for TWODW licencing to run out, and are wanting to retheme the area, it would make a lot of sense as that is currently an area which is lacking at AT.

 

[BSwiss]

tbh I agree that they are waiting for TWODW licencing to run out, and are wanting to retheme the area, it would make a lot of sense as that is currently an area which is lacking at AT.

Do they HAVE to wait? I don’t have any insights into the contract terms, but it seems to make sense they gave the right to use them for a set period, but not a requirement.

If they’re not confident Walliams is proving value for money, surely they’re not hamstrung by the contract. And if they want to squeeze the full value from the contract, that feels akin to chasing bad money with good.

Also, it feels like PH is dead. But that’s based on VIBES, and VIBES alone.

 

[flyingguitar]

Do they HAVE to wait? I don’t have any insights into the contract terms, but it seems to make sense they gave the right to use them for a set period, but not a requirement.

If they’re not confident Walliams is proving value for money, surely they’re not hamstrung by the contract. And if they want to squeeze the full value from the contract, that feels akin to chasing bad money with good.

Also, it feels like PH is dead. But that’s based on VIBES, and VIBES alone.

there may be contractual terms requiring it being used for a minimum time (don't forget David Williams will get money from things such as merchandise sales).

but also it will be a thing about organising the money, they would have planned to spend the money to retheme the area once the licence ran out, in the mean time they also have plans to build a new CBeebies coaster, they have renovated 5 rides, and no doubt have more plans.

 

[BSwiss]

there may be contractual terms requiring it being used for a minimum time (don't forget David Williams will get money from things such as merchandise sales).

This may be true, but it feels more likely an up-front fee was paid to Walliams, or whichever entity holds the IP. And then all merch proceeds go to Merlin.

If DW was profit sharing based upon sales figures, imagine how messy it would become re-stocking Raj’s shop. For all their faults, Merlin are still very business savvy - if they’re paying for (imo a crap) IP, they’re in a position to empower themselves.

 

[Bert2theSpark]

Word of Walliams was a dying gasp of public Merlin, opening in the time of a repivot within the business.

I suspect we would have seen a heavier transformation of Cloud Cuckoo Land if it was only a few years later. It probably only happened because the opportunity to use the Spirit of New York ride system was already purchased. Taking away that and the filler that has been taken away anyways with the guards and Flávio’s, leaves the rest of the area to essentially be a repaint and some audio being swapped out.

The man himself has was caught in a PR controversy when the land finally opened, and maintained similar public to Derren Brown and Bear Grylls. We’ve not since any attractions themed around real individuals since, and Walliams is the last example of that choice of IP still standing. Merlin have either gone big or gone home(grown) with IPs ever since.

It’s a shame because if they actually fleshed out the concept beyond what was originally proposed and had a fairly substantial land, then it might have worked with the breadth of content from his books. Nothing never materialised because the attention was focused elsewhere, a similar fate to the neighbouring Dungeons next door.

I’ve said this before but, because they tried to piecemeal that corner of the park, there’s now a huge opportunity to completely overhaul that area, and have Alton Towers hold it’s own against an upcoming Universal!

 

[Hid]

Word of Walliams was a dying gasp of public Merlin, opening in the time of a repivot within the business.

I suspect we would have seen a heavier transformation of Cloud Cuckoo Land if it was only a few years later. It probably only happened because the opportunity to use the Spirit of New York ride system was already purchased. Taking away that and the filler that has been taken away anyways with the guards and Flávio’s, leaves the rest of the area to essentially be a repaint and some audio being swapped out.

The man himself has was caught in a PR controversy when the land finally opened, and maintained similar public to Derren Brown and Bear Grylls. We’ve not since any attractions themed around real individuals since, and Walliams is the last example of that choice of IP still standing. Merlin have either gone big or gone home(grown) with IPs ever since.

It’s a shame because if they actually fleshed out the concept beyond what was originally proposed and had a fairly substantial land, then it might have worked with the breadth of content from his books. Nothing never materialised because the attention was focused elsewhere, a similar fate to the neighbouring Dungeons next door.

I’ve said this before but, because they tried to piecemeal that corner of the park, there’s now a huge opportunity to completely overhaul that area, and have Alton Towers hold it’s own against an upcoming Universal!

That area has always beeb awkward Land each area never really had its own identity Talbot Street, Land of Make Believe, Cred Street and Cloud Cuckoo Land its always had some sort of IP it going on Land of Make Believe forward.

I think Merlin Mistake when adding Charlie and the Chocolate Factory should have gone with a Roulh Dahl Land instead featuring books like Matilda and Fantastic Mr Fox would be way more popular.

I do think they'll do something with that area like why are there so many markings around the Dunegons. But also Nicklodeon Outta Control 4D Cinema and the Flavios site have been untouched.

I think Project Horizon has and 50/50 shot at happening but we shall see I have noticed some tree and bushes have been cutback down the right hand side of the Dungeons so there's that to go off of

 

[Alphe86]

Dungeon markings im 95%, convinced relate to cable to take power from the solar panel instillation

 

[Hid]

Dungeon markings im 95%, convinced relate to cable to take power from the solar panel instillation

But there is pink and white markings all over the place and why would you put solar panels on a building you are not using

 

[Alphe86]

Because AT have strict planning problems and it provides a large surface area, likely to be approved (it was). And clearly it will be used again sometime

 

[AltonLover123]

But there is pink and white markings all over the place and why would you put solar panels on a building you are not using

They got permission for it so they’re now in the process of installing them. Markers on the ground can be exciting, but 9 times out of 10 they are for 'boring' things like this.

 

[DistortAMG]

But there is pink and white markings all over the place and why would you put solar panels on a building you are not using

Because it provides a convenient roof to place the panels on? The power generated by them doesnt have to be used in the building they are placed upon, making the building they are placed upon, irrelevant.

We have these great things, called electricity cables, they are AMAZING for carrying electricity to where you want it to go

 

[tech]

We have these great things, called electricity cables, they are AMAZING for carrying electricity to where you want it to go

Pfft, cables. I can’t see them catching on.

 

[Hid]

Because it provides a convenient roof to place the panels on? The power generated by them doesnt have to be used in the building they are placed upon, making the building they are placed upon, irrelevant.

We have these great things, called electricity cables, they are AMAZING for carrying electricity to where you want it to go

Yes I work with cables every day I know full well what they are no need to be sarcastic, But why specifically the Dungeons buildings when there are lots of other buildings around the resort that could be used

 

[DistortAMG]

Yes I work with cables every day I know full well what they are no need to be sarcastic, But why specifically the Dungeons buildings when there are lots of other buildings around the resort that could be used

Apologies, no intention to cause offence.

It could be many reasons, it could be part of a wider plan to place many panels on lots of buildings across the park. With this specific building currently out of use, it makes installation right now, mid season, perfect. Because it causes no disruption to the operating park, rides, attractions and F&B units.

Anything being installed in the park right now, would potentially cause rides, units, attractions and who knows what else, to be fenced off and or closed for a short while, not good as we go into the busiest time of the year.