Formula One

Discussion in 'Corner Coffee' started by Stelios, 24th Jun 2012.

  1. Tibble

    Tibble TowersStreet Member

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    Yes McLaren! Great to have a win, and a 1-2 for the first time in ages. It's been amazing to too Danny Ric happy again, always knew he was capable of being a multi team winner and after following McLaren from the Hakkinen/Couthard time through Hamilton and the low points with crap cars, its great for the team and for the fans

    I think in regards to the Hamilton/Verstappen incident, the FIA and everyone needs to decide. If you want close racing with edge of your seat overtakes, then this kinda thing is going to happen, and if im honest I was all for it. Taking those risks and looking for the small gaps. It is what makes racing so good. Otherwise you might as well go watch the M1 because when they discourage that kind of racing, you're just watching 20 cars do the same route round the track
     
  2. WillPS

    WillPS TowersStreet Member

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    It's just totally inconsistent isn't it - Verstappen's car was significantly alongside at the point he was forced off. The responsibility should be with the driver under attack to ensure the room is there on track. The run off area is not the track - the rule is no different whether the overtaking driver is forced on to a France-style run off, a gravel trap or a Monaco style wall.

    It's a stretch to call MV the victim, he knew it was a risky move, but it's not an illegal one.

    On the flip reverse you have Perez/Norris being penalised in Austria for following their line (as Hamilton did) and forcing another driver off in the process.

    It's a baffling decision frankly, and it's not a good precedent. These are racing incidents and the show is at its best when the drivers are willing to assert their right to track even if that risks taking out/being taken out.

    It's a shame because it undermines what was otherwise (surprisingly) a smashing race.
     
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  3. geo4chg

    geo4chg TowersStreet Member

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    I completely agree. At the end of the day it is motorsport and comings together have been a part of it since day one. Of course, dangerous and reckless driving should be punished, as should deliberate acts like some of those from the Prost/Senna days and some of the moves Schumacher made, but good, hard racing particularly between the 2 championship rivals is what people want to see. Had Max seen Hamilton coming out of the pitlane and not tried to make a move we would have all been disappointed. When the majority of moves we see are DRS-assisted (make the move down the straight and its done before they even get to the braking zone), this type of action is exactly what we crave for. Both drivers are tough competitors who aren't afraid to make contact every once in a while, unfortunately this time (mainly due to the curb design) they made contact and their races were ended.

    While I agree Max possibly had "red-mist" from the slow pit stop (his radio messages seemed to indicate that), I don't think the actual move was overly aggressive really, it was a typical move we've come to expect from him. I'm far from a Max fan in general, but for the good of F1 and the championship I think laying blame and penalty at his door is the wrong way to go.
     
  4. IanB

    IanB TowersStreet Member

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    But he was only there because he braked softer than normal in to the corner and was taking a different line. Its a shame the FIA can not share the telemetry and go in to more details about what happened.

    I would argue that Max should of been forced to leave more space for Lewis at the start, same as Perez on Charles. Both were alongside in to the corner, and you could argue should be allowed space on the outside. We should not accept that drivers have to bail out of an overtake because drivers close the door, even though they were in front.

    The current rules give the cars in front to much power, if your in front, you close the door and if you get hit its a penalty for the other driver. That being said, the mirrors are next to useless, they are going so fast and on the limit, maybe it is right that the car behind has to be more careful.

    There needs to be some rules, but I think its impossible for the drivers to follow those rules in real time. How do the drivers know if the other driver is enough alongside they need to leave space or not. Let them battle it out on the track, and if there is contact, the stewards can make a decision on it.
     
  5. geo4chg

    geo4chg TowersStreet Member

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    I think we are all in agreement here with regards to wanting more racing. I just wish the penalties would be stopped except in the most extreme cases. In Silverstone, it was a racing incident, Lewis maybe slightly more to blame, but still should be a racing incident, and here in Monza it was a racing incident, perhaps Max slightly more to blame, but just because the blame is 55-45 or 60-40 one way or another doesn't mean penalties necessarily need to be given. Particularly when other rules that are only in place for safety reasons (speeding in pit lane, not slowing for yellows, unsafe release) seem to get such lenient penalties. I think, like in the 90s/early 00s, there should just be the 10 sec stop/go penalty, anything more minor that currently would get 10 seconds/5 secs added onto time shouldn't get one. That would mean only the most severe misdemeanours would get penalties.

    The last thing I would say about the incident is that just because a driver can take to an escape road, or cut the chicane or whatever, doesn't mean they should - just because a driver, in this case Max, didn't avoid a collision by cutting the chicane doesn't automatically mean they are to blame for the collision. Lewis could just have easily taken a wider line to avoid a collision if he had wished but he didn't because he is a true racer, like Max, that wants to compete and win.
     
  6. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    Well, that was an interesting race! First of all I was very pleased for McLaren and Ricciardo, a thoroughly deserved win and although they did not have the fastest car over the weekend they were fast enough down the straights to ensure neither a Red Bull or Mercedes could overtake them.

    As for the main talking point, I personally thought it was a racing incident. I also thought that the crash at Silverstone was a racing incident. There is always likely to be one driver who is slightly more to blame than the other (Hamilton at Silverstone, Verstappen at Monza) but that does not mean we need to start throwing penalties around.

    Having said that, I am pleased that Verstappen was handed a penalty and hope that it might teach him a lesson. I know that he is a strong, aggressive racer but if he goes in to every corner with the mentality of "I am getting past/staying in front, and I am not backing out" then there are going to be crashes. There would have been more crahses this season if Hamilton had not back out in corners. Verstappen should have seen that the gap on the inside of turn 2 was not that big, and backed out. He can't complain about not being left space when he doesn't leave space himself at times.

    Of course it was quite convenient for Verstappen for them both not to finish and Red Bull will be satisfied with the weekend. When Horner was immediately on the defensive you knew that he really felt that Verstappen was more to blame and at risk of a penalty.

    Also I found it quite ironic that Verstappen did not even look to see if Hamilton was ok despite his car going right over the top. He was keen to make the point that he would never have celebrated like Hamilton/Mercedes did at Silverstone if roles were reversed. Deep down we all know he would have done.

    Finally, thank god for the halo.
     
  7. geo4chg

    geo4chg TowersStreet Member

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    This is not correct - the footage shows that Max does glance towards Lewis when he gets out and as Verstappen said - Lewis was trying to reverse at the time he walked past, if you are seriously injured you are not trying to reverse a Formula One car. This is the British media trying to make a story when it doesn't exist.
     
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  8. Rojo

    Rojo TowersStreet Member

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    Like VAR in football there's probably too much micro decision making taking place and everything needs to attributed blame now that budget caps are in. Too much emphasis is put into binary data like telemetry and not on instinct, the very thing that separates the best from the mediocre drivers and that forces drivers to be more defensive by nature. When you get quality drivers like Lewis and Max everyone thinks their style is "aggressive".

    If Liberty Media wants better entertainment then some of the rules should be relaxed and let drivers race and Masi can go for the "clear and obvious" decisions. (To steal from the VAR comparison a bit more). Sadly Liberty will be scared the top teams will take their steering wheels and go home if they don't feel protected by the rules.

    I always remember a referee telling me he always knew a bad tackle was a straight red when the offending player apologized and admitted his challenge was only a yellow. I'm getting those vibes here with Horner's reaction.

    Absolutely!
     
  9. swalesuk01

    swalesuk01 TowersStreet Member

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    The whole thing with people claiming Max didn't check to see how Lewis was is the main thing that had bugged me.
    Like most things it's the camera angle you mainly see that made it look worse. The main shot they showed on Friday was from the air behind the cars, which made it look like max was at the back of the merc before he looks back. If you watch the trackside camera from the front you clearly see Max look in as he passes the cockpit.
    Finally how many people would actually go near an F1 car if you can see it is trying to reverse out, especially with another car on top of it. For me Max was just keeping a safe distance in case lewis by some miracle freed his car.

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
     
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  10. geo4chg

    geo4chg TowersStreet Member

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    Agreed. I think having former drivers as stewards is a completely flawed concept as every driver will have at some point feel aggrieved that someone else crashed into them at some point in their career, and therefore they are hotwired to always think someone is to blame for all accidents. With many of these incidents, the driver steward will remember something similar happening to them and put blame on a driver accordingly.

    With this particular incident, the amount a car is alongside is how they have determined who is to blame. To everyone watching, Verstappen looked to be alongside, I'm sure in the cockpit Max believed himself to be alongside, Lewis even probably thought Max was alongside. When racing at those speeds, in a split second, Max isn't going to look at his own front wheel and determine if it is beyond Lewis' or not quite there or whatever and then think "I'm 5cm short of being alongside so I need to bail out of this move". Blame and penalties are being decided on such fine margins that it is becoming like VAR with offside decisions. It should be a lot more broad - at Silverstone, Lewis was not far enough alongside as his front wheel was in line with Max's rear, and from the onboard with Lewis at no point did he appear alongside. At Monza, it was far less clear cut. Having said that, I think both where just minor errors that didn't warrant a penalty with the outcome of each (Max in the barriers at Sliverstone and mounting HAM's car at Monza) looking far worse than the original error actually was.

    Even if one driver is more to blame than the other, it doesn't necessarily mean a penalty is warranted - at the end of the day they are human beings and these accidents happen at very high speed, so of course drivers are sometimes going to make a mistake.
     
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  11. WillPS

    WillPS TowersStreet Member

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    I couldn't agree more with this. Evidenced perfectly by Herbert (who is not very good at pretending to be neutral) & Hill mouthing off about MV forcing LH off, despite the evidence he was there alongside being walked through frame by frame by Di Resta moments previous.

    Having a rotating panel of former drivers is a big part of why this inconsistency exists, as each panel selectively reads the rules and evidence to suit whatever driver/direction they personally believe is right. It is pretty far from unbiased.

    I also think some of the paddock-side journalists did a very bad job of staying neutral in their questioning, one even said something like 'I mean you gave room for Max there' even though that clearly wasn't the case.

    LH is an amazing driver, truly, but the levels of infatuation surrounding him at this point are nauseating.
     
  12. IanB

    IanB TowersStreet Member

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    Dutch TV is just as biased from what I have heard.

    Martin's blog post was interesting, and he talks about three times he helmet made contact with something external in the car (Link)

    Not sure if anyone has heard of Driver 61 before, but he is a famous racing driver coach, and he shared his thoughts on the incident here. His conclusion was that Lewis should of shut the door earlier, been more aggressive and not given Max the chance to go up the inside.

    iRacing have announced that they are going to be released the current Mercedes F1 car in the sim, which should be really interesting (Link). Shame they wont get the RedBull as well, as the two different approaches to car design, resulting in very similar performance would be great fun to race.

    And to finish off, we have a race this weekend in Sochi to look forward to :)
     
  13. Jonathan

    Jonathan TowersStreet Member

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    That's provided the flooding stops, of course... :p
     
  14. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    So Verstappen is having a new power unit this weekend and will start from the back of the grid. Does his 3 place grid penalty carry over to the next race, or is the penalty null and void...?
     
  15. IanB

    IanB TowersStreet Member

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    haha Rob, I read that as a very tongue in cheek comment :)

    Sensible decision by Red Bull to replace his engine, if qual can go ahead tomorrow, its going to be a wet one, where McLaren, Ferrari and others could mix it up at the front. Max does not need to take any risks, but Lewis does now.

    Start will be important, can easily go wrong when starting at the back, but it just makes the race more interesting which I am all for.
     
  16. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    Was very fortunate to visit the McLaren Technology Centre this week as part of a work thing, had a great time. The collection of F1 cars (and other disciplines) that they have is fascinating and to be able to look into them and admire the detail of them was great.

    What struck me is the evolution of the cars throughout the seasons, as you watch the first race of the season as a casual observer, you don't realise how things have changed from the previous, but to have five cars from one decade lined up, it's interesting to see how things have evolved.

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    I seemingly didn't take any wide shots of the latest, was too busy looking at it.

    We also went into the Production centre for the super cars, oddly quiet for an assembly line, everything done by hand - genuinely incredible though. That was the only bit where we couldn't take photos.

    If you ever get the chance to go, you should.
     
    Last edited: 25th Sep 2021
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  17. IanB

    IanB TowersStreet Member

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    Great Photos Rick, I have got as far as the security gate :)

    Fantastic qualifying and race tomorrow is going to be really interesting.
     
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  18. WillPS

    WillPS TowersStreet Member

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    Another unexpectedly brilliant GP. Great result for the WDC.

    Hope there's a nice bit of drizzle at Turkey in a couple of weeks.
     
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  19. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    I don't know what you could possibly mean... :p

    What a race yesterday! Glad I managed to avoid the result and watch it when I got back from Towers. Such a shame for Lando, he really deserved the win and I don't think Lewis would have got past in dry conditions unless Lando made a mistake (which he never looked like doing).

    Credit to Mercedes for making sure Lewis came in for the inters. That call won them the race. Big mistake by McLaren but they will leard from it. Also what a result for Max, coming from last to second is immense. I'm still not sure how he manged to jump from seventh to second, that seemed to get lost in all of the action. Did he pit a lap earlier than those ahead of him?

    More races like this please!
     
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  20. geo4chg

    geo4chg TowersStreet Member

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    Mercedes had the advantage of being 2nd so for them pitting for inters was a no-lose situation - if it didn't get any wetter they still take 2nd anyway whereas for McLaren - imagine if Nando had pitted from the lead and Lewis hadn't and the rain didn't get any harder and he finished 2nd, everyone would be calling McLaren idiots for doing it.

    As for Max - he pitted the lap before as most of those around him. Apparently Red Bull wanted him to stay out but Max made the call to come in the lap he did and it worked a treat for him.

    Great race though. Even forgetting about the rain at the end it was a good race and once again shows how much better F1 would be if the top 10 had free choice of tyre to start race on so you get a mix of strategies.
     
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