But when the rap queue becomes as long as the main queue, what is the difference...you are still stuck next to people!
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Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)
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imanautie
TS Member
Put it this way I use the swears tab in my AAC a fair bit in that situation.
I get the fact that wheelchair users can't use the main queue line due to level access as well as negotiation air gates, and crossing the track to exit again as leaving via the queue line in a contra flow would be impossible.
The top main problems with the current RAP system
1. RAP Time Cards not being marked = Turns the RAP into F/T
2. The park is so big, so that when the time cards are actually marked, people can utilise the time out to walk from one end of the park to the other = Turns the RAP into F/T
3. All rides have RAP access, but the time out cards are only valid on the Big rides, so RAP users can still use RAP on the smaller rides while waiting for their mark time on the big rides = Turns RAP into F/T
4. There is no way to tell when someone is using the main queue line that they are also a RAP user, I've seen RAP flitter between RAP and normal Queue lines to get in extra rides when they are timed out = Turns the RAP into F/T
5. There are also some RAP users that don't/can't wear the wrist band due to sensory reasons, again this leads to RAP being abused.
6. There are those that claim to have lost their Time card and go back to guess services to obtain a second (or more) time card. But in reality they know that the card was never loss but do it to obtain a second or more card to cheat the time out
As @jon81uk say's the following would be a better system.
I certainly believe that RAP should visit the entrance of the ride they wish to ride and get a entrance time slot at that point. This should be for all rides not just the main ones. If they change their minds on what ride they would like to ride, they can get another time for a different ride, but that will cancel out any previous ride that they were going to ride. This might mean more staff, but they could open up one of the unused empty kiosk in each area for RAP users to go to to request a time slot for a ride solely within that area. These kiosk can also double up for RAP users to obtain a new time card when their time card is full, saving them the hassle to have to return all the way to the guess services.
Currently the RAP is not fit for purpose, it no longer serves those that are genuinely needing access to the rides but are prevented from doing so because of their medical condition, it these people that I genuinely feel sorry for as they are the ones that are really suffering and losing out the most in all this.
The top main problems with the current RAP system
1. RAP Time Cards not being marked = Turns the RAP into F/T
2. The park is so big, so that when the time cards are actually marked, people can utilise the time out to walk from one end of the park to the other = Turns the RAP into F/T
3. All rides have RAP access, but the time out cards are only valid on the Big rides, so RAP users can still use RAP on the smaller rides while waiting for their mark time on the big rides = Turns RAP into F/T
4. There is no way to tell when someone is using the main queue line that they are also a RAP user, I've seen RAP flitter between RAP and normal Queue lines to get in extra rides when they are timed out = Turns the RAP into F/T
5. There are also some RAP users that don't/can't wear the wrist band due to sensory reasons, again this leads to RAP being abused.
6. There are those that claim to have lost their Time card and go back to guess services to obtain a second (or more) time card. But in reality they know that the card was never loss but do it to obtain a second or more card to cheat the time out
As @jon81uk say's the following would be a better system.
I certainly believe that RAP should visit the entrance of the ride they wish to ride and get a entrance time slot at that point. This should be for all rides not just the main ones. If they change their minds on what ride they would like to ride, they can get another time for a different ride, but that will cancel out any previous ride that they were going to ride. This might mean more staff, but they could open up one of the unused empty kiosk in each area for RAP users to go to to request a time slot for a ride solely within that area. These kiosk can also double up for RAP users to obtain a new time card when their time card is full, saving them the hassle to have to return all the way to the guess services.
Currently the RAP is not fit for purpose, it no longer serves those that are genuinely needing access to the rides but are prevented from doing so because of their medical condition, it these people that I genuinely feel sorry for as they are the ones that are really suffering and losing out the most in all this.
imanautie
TS Member
#5 no longer an issue, bands aren't used (photo IDs cards are instead)
Thanks for updating me on that....
...it means that they can enter easily flitter between RAP and Main Queue line as they have no wrist band for the ride ops to detect
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jon81uk
TS Member
You’ll never stop people joining the main queue. It’s not worth worrying about that. If someone has a RAP for a 90 minute wait and decides to ride another ride their kid can cope with a 15 minute wait for then I don’t see a major problem.
the bigger issue is people getting the pass who don’t really need it and then getting a return time for a 90 minute wait and going on to join a 60 minute wait, proving they don’t really need their pass.
Benzin
TS Member
If you prevent RAP from using say, Heave Ho whilst waiting for the time slot for Wickerman, what are RAP holders expected to do?
Sea-Life would get pretty boring after about the 5th visit of the day.
In terms of preventing wristband users from using the regular queue if they so wish, telling them they're only allowed to use the disabled queue is technically discrimination. I mean last year if that had been in place no disabled visitors could ride Duel due to the disabled entrance being closed due to Covid.
I mean over our recent visits (as my partner is one of these people who requires RAP), we don't really have many problems. Apart from the hill out of X-Sector. But then again as we have a wheelchair it means we avoid Smiler and could avoid Wickerman's queues (never gone through the shop lift for Wickerman). That said both of those are badly designed as the accessible exit is the on-load side.
It is still flawed due to the numbers using it. However I maintain that actually enforcing the existing rules would take steps towards improving the experience. The park cannot really do much in terms of giving RAP to those with GP letters or Blue Badges (Paultons only allow GP letters elsewhere) without causing a lot of problems. But if you start implementing PIP/ESA recipients only then you're going to be in a lot of hot water due to the way it's implemented.
Just. No. I hate how this is STILL a go-to response whenever there's criticism towards how parks deal with peak days. Not everyone can visit off-peak. Not everyone wants to waste a day off work for somewhere that I should be able to visit any day of the year and still have a good day.
Sea-Life would get pretty boring after about the 5th visit of the day.
In terms of preventing wristband users from using the regular queue if they so wish, telling them they're only allowed to use the disabled queue is technically discrimination. I mean last year if that had been in place no disabled visitors could ride Duel due to the disabled entrance being closed due to Covid.
I mean over our recent visits (as my partner is one of these people who requires RAP), we don't really have many problems. Apart from the hill out of X-Sector. But then again as we have a wheelchair it means we avoid Smiler and could avoid Wickerman's queues (never gone through the shop lift for Wickerman). That said both of those are badly designed as the accessible exit is the on-load side.
It is still flawed due to the numbers using it. However I maintain that actually enforcing the existing rules would take steps towards improving the experience. The park cannot really do much in terms of giving RAP to those with GP letters or Blue Badges (Paultons only allow GP letters elsewhere) without causing a lot of problems. But if you start implementing PIP/ESA recipients only then you're going to be in a lot of hot water due to the way it's implemented.
Just. No. I hate how this is STILL a go-to response whenever there's criticism towards how parks deal with peak days. Not everyone can visit off-peak. Not everyone wants to waste a day off work for somewhere that I should be able to visit any day of the year and still have a good day.
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
This is the age old conundrum though ... If RAP is a means to go on more rides than a non-RAP user, you need an answer to that question.
If RAP is a means to provide guests with a disability an equivalent experience, you do not.
This a moot point with low volume, but with the numbers of RAP users we see, quadrupled by carers you end up having vast numbers of guests in two queues, causing the sort of waits we have been seeing.
The problem is further exacerbated by a 90 minute Wicker Man queue being represented by a 15 minute window on a RAP card, so you end up with four people skipping a 90 minute queue for Wicker Man, riding Heave Ho and Mauraders and then heading back to Wicker Man to skip another 90 minute queue 15 minutes later.
And then there's the Covid effect.
It's unsustainable.
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Craig
TS Administrator
Completely agree, it should be made perfectly clear that the reason for RAP is to allow those who have difficulty queueing to have access to a ride. There are too many people - and I'm not saying it's everyone who has a RAP, but a significant number that use it as a means to get on a larger number of rides in comparison to guests who have to queue. That should never be the case. As Rick rightly says it's solely to provide a reasonable adjustment to allow equivalent access to the park's attractions.
If it's a busy day, you get on less - as is the case for everyone who visits the park. I certainly don't think it's unfeasible to suggest visiting off peak if you can either. It's physically impossible to provide the same product each and every day the park is open with all the variables of guests, weather and time of year.
If there is little to do between rides, then that is a customer experience issue for the park to address for everyone, not just RAP users - queueing ain't the most engaging thing after-all! That could be in the form of addressing entertainment or increasing sheltered seating areas for example.
Unless they bite the bullet and upset people by considering how to give that equivalence between RAP and queuing guests, then RAP will unfortunately continue to spiral into the mess that it is on peak days. It's not fair for non RAP guests, and it's also not fair for RAP guests either when they're left in queues for so long.
If it's a busy day, you get on less - as is the case for everyone who visits the park. I certainly don't think it's unfeasible to suggest visiting off peak if you can either. It's physically impossible to provide the same product each and every day the park is open with all the variables of guests, weather and time of year.
If there is little to do between rides, then that is a customer experience issue for the park to address for everyone, not just RAP users - queueing ain't the most engaging thing after-all! That could be in the form of addressing entertainment or increasing sheltered seating areas for example.
Unless they bite the bullet and upset people by considering how to give that equivalence between RAP and queuing guests, then RAP will unfortunately continue to spiral into the mess that it is on peak days. It's not fair for non RAP guests, and it's also not fair for RAP guests either when they're left in queues for so long.
imanautie
TS Member
It's not helped by hosts actually telling people to use the main queue when it's quiet (I've had that happen a few times)
pluk
TS Member
Wait, near the ride, in a more comfortable way than standing in the queue. That surely is the point? I've not previously spoken to any legitimate user that wants an advantage over other riders, they just want access facilitated. As soon as the system holds such an advantage of being in two places at once, attraction wise, it is doomed to fail by overuse and abuse.
imanautie
TS Member
Apart from the being near the ride I completely agree with you there.
I've actually said thanks to staff who consistently mark rap including mine as it just makes the whole system so much more accessible to all users.
delta79
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis, Air
The closest my daughter and myself have got to an advantage is finding a nice spot to wait the lockout to enjoy lunch.
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Benzin
TS Member
If this is the case then why are other parks who don't even implement a time out system not suffering from the same issues?
In terms of waiting between times, there's no one answer to fulfil the needs of everyone. As I mentioned earlier, there is not a lot to do elsewhere in the park to pass the time, especially if you were to remove the ability of visiting other smaller attractions. I feel that ability is fairly useful for those who don't have the capacity to understand waiting. But for others they could wait by the exit.
Of course if things were signed correctly then we very well might not be having such discussions.
imanautie
TS Member
Presumably other parks don't frequently issue disabled access without proof
Craig
TS Administrator
But again this comes down to the question - guests who stand in the normal queue are unable to do anything to pass the time, why is it a requirement that a RAP user should have access to anything different to that? As I said last night, I'm not against RAP users having the ability to do something like have access to sheltered seating or entertainment, but a RAP should never give a guest the ability to go on more rides than a queuing guest. That's where the perfectly valid suggestion of visiting off peak comes from, the same as it would for any guest.
I agree that the implementation should be improved and passes should be signed, but we have a perfect storm of a large number of people who see themselves as eligible for the passes, people who wish to abuse the system/have a lack of understanding of what it is there for and poor administration on the part of staff. We've all seen the situation get progressively worse in the past few years, and the longer it goes on the more a precedent has been set, and the more difficult it will be to make changes.
Benzin
TS Member
Is this a particular problem here? I mean most parks take GP notes or blue badges much like Towers.
Perhaps culturally Brits are more likely to take advantage with things like this. Presumably why always see people park in disabled/family parking spots when they've got no badge or children with them.
Perhaps the Walibi system is the most sensible, however they do not have (at Holland at least) appropriate measures in place for that system. No seating and you wait the length of the regular queue? Not particularly well thought out there given their crowd levels at times.
Think what also needs to be considered currently is that we are still under Covid protocols and that will affect the rides. Apparently Towers were at some point placing non-mask wearers on back row which prevented disabled guests from getting on? Stuff like that won't help the situation.
jon81uk
TS Member
It shouldn't by default act as fasttrack and enable a significant amount of additional riding. But I don't think there is a way to stop those guests who truly need the accommodation using shorter wait rides to pass the time for larger rides.
I am not that familiar with autism and similar but if a family with a child who cannot wait in the main queue as they cannot perceive the fact they have to wait for something and find the crowded queue overloading for them are visiting, I would say it is reasonable if they have to come back in say 90 minutes for Wickerman they may ride Heave Ho with a 10 minute wait and go in the Sea Life centre to give the child something to distract them from the fact they need to wait 90 minutes. Therefore yes that family will experience more attractions than someone without the pass. Trying to enforce a system which prevents those with a pass from joining a standard queue is unworkable.
The issue comes when there is a family where they don't have as serious condition so get the 90 minute return time for Wickerman and then proceed to wait in the standard 60 minute queue for Runaway Mine Train. If they can wait 60 minutes, do they really need the pass?
Craig
TS Administrator
Whilst the Covid protocols will have an effect, this is an issue which vastly predates March last year. We've seen RAP queues get bigger year on year. I doubt Covid really has a major effect on it, especially as many who previously were eligible for a RAP have not yet returned to the park since reopening.
No I don't think there is an easy way to do that, and that's one of the main problems they're going to have to deal with somehow. As you said, there's clearly some people who really do not require the pass if they're capable of hopping in the main queue after getting a RAP time, and are therefore using it for the wrong reasons. The fact still stands though, that if people are going on another ride (no matter how small that queue may be) whilst waiting in a RAP queue, they are essentially not using the pass as it should be used, are increasing queue times for other guests.
One thing I think does need to be considered is not just blindly adding on the main queue time for a RAP pass. For example, in a 15 minute window at Wickerman you could get 2 groups of RAP users turn up and get the same return time. That's fine, but in another 15 minute window you could get 20 groups turn up, yet all get the same return window. That appears to be one of the issues we see for dark rides around events like Fireworks. That then causes the excessively long RAP queues that we often see, which go completely against the reasons the RAP exists in the first place.
How to manage that is a difficult one though, and perhaps you'd have to go down the route of an electronic RAP to facilitate it. How to explain it to a RAP guest is also difficult too, as whilst their queueing time would essentially be the same because that hideously long queue would be reduced/avoided, their wait time may be a little higher than the main queue.
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