Theme Park Management - What's Best?

[TheMan]

Finally, in terms of areas being "incoherent" - I really think this is something that is over stated by coaster fans, I really don't think "the GP" or my preferred definition "people" really buy into it all that as much as this community thinks they do. I'm not saying that isn't a shame, but I think it's simply a fact of life and Merlin know it.

That's nonsense.

Even if people don't "notice" it, they are utterly incapable of not noticing it.

People are drawn to symmetry, beauty, etc - if for some reason you think that miraculously doesn't apply to the theme park experience then may I suggest removing your corporate goggles for a moment.

I have read many of your posts Rick, and as I know I well annoy others with my ramblings, generally, yours annoy me because they represent the kind of damaging, reductionist thinking. Ironically when you mention preferring to call "the GP", "people", like it's some kind of patronising slur, you, in the same post, don't give them credit for being able to notice, or indeed APPRECIATE, cohesion & theatre and experience.

Something you also seem to have completely forgotten is one of the things that actually turned Alton Towers into a world class, and world renown THEME park.

Irony, much?

Lazy thinking.

Get it away from this industry.

 

[Rob]

I have been waiting and looking forward to the moment that TheMan encountered Rick's posts!

I totally agree with TheMan though. I'm in the middle of reading a book about Walt Disney, the founder of the theme park, and if he did have the same philosophies as Rick then theme parks would never have been born. We would all still be visiting dingy amusement parks.

Here is a quote from 'Walt Disney and the Promise of Progress City' relating to areas being incoherent:

"Hench (John Hench, selected by Walt Disney as one of the original Imagineers) suggested that the only way to design a successful themed environment is to eliminate any visual contradictions..... Hench elaborated, "If visual details disagree, guests experience active clutter."... Active clutter creates mixed messages, sets up conflicts, creates tensions and may even feel threatening."

Can't argue with the masters!

 

[AstroDan]

I tried to find a similar quote in the Roland Mack biography, but there were far too many to choose from.

 

[Ted]

That's nonsense.

Even if people don't "notice" it, they are utterly incapable of not noticing it.

People are drawn to symmetry, beauty, etc - if for some reason you think that miraculously doesn't apply to the theme park experience then may I suggest removing your corporate goggles for a moment.

I have read many of your posts Rick, and as I know I well annoy others with my ramblings, generally, yours annoy me because they represent the kind of damaging, reductionist thinking. Ironically when you mention preferring to call "the GP", "people", like it's some kind of patronising slur, you, in the same post, don't give them credit for being able to notice, or indeed APPRECIATE, cohesion & theatre and experience.

Something you also seem to have completely forgotten is one of the things that actually turned Alton Towers into a world class, and world renown THEME park.

Irony, much?

Lazy thinking.

Get it away from this industry.

You don't annoy me with your ramblings TM. I really enjoy reading the majority of your posts =) Definitely not as much as someone who insults us by when we notice rotten theming, poor throughputs, upselling on Towers Street, Rita's scaffholding and many other problems Towers have!

 

[TheMan]

You don't annoy me with your ramblings TM. I really enjoy reading the majority of your posts =) Definitely not as much as someone who insults us by noticed rotten theming and Merlin's other flaws!

- (Thank you!)

Corporate and substandard bean counter apologists involved in tempering and lowering acceptable standards of creative industries may, possibly, be a bug bear of mine...

Theme parks are art, majestic, push the boundaries for many people of their "bravery". They are places where fears are challenged, worries put to one side, memories are made & kept for lifetimes. Places of wonderment, awe, excitement, escapism, nerves!

The more you can completely ensconce and immerse the individual in the performance, the surroundings, the environment - the less things that can bring you back down to the cold reality you're just having a day out somewhere, rather than not thinking about it & simply just enjoying it.

Theme parks, in reality, have a thin veneer quite often, and when that falters - it's noticed.

There aren't many places to "escape" the world nowadays, it's pervasive. Those of us who appreciate the deliciousness of this art, need to defend its value. It's just handy I have a big gob.

@Rob - I can actually imagine people doing that, thinking "uh-oh" and awaiting me finding it, I flipped my lid when I read it , but absolutely bellowed out laughing at your mention!

 

[Ted]

@TheMan I've missed you so much! Your post again is spot on, Theme parks are suppose to offer the highest amount of quality and rotting theming, upselling, and ride closures aren't a part of this.

 

[TheMan]

@TheMan I've missed you so much! Your post again is spot on, Theme parks are suppose to offer the highest amount of quality and rotting theming, upselling, and ride closures aren't a part of this.

PREACH TO ME BROTHER!

This by the way, is why I will never get a job in the Theme park industry.

Varney would end up superglueing his wallet shut or I'd lock him downstairs on a closed N:ST until he agreed on my demands.

BUDGET?!

SMUDGET!

 

[Rick]

Corporate and substandard bean counter apologists involved in tempering and lowering acceptable standards of creative industries may, possibly, be a bug bear of mine...

Haha! Hilarious, but I obviously, don't entirely agree. I would suggest it's all about the beans, the airy fairy stuff comes second - it has to. Without beans you can't have anything else. Theme parks exist for beans and beans alone. If someone came to Merlin with enough beans, Alton Towers would be gone.

Theme parks are art, majestic, push the boundaries for many people of their "bravery". They are places where fears are challenged, worries put to one side, memories are made & kept for lifetimes. Places of wonderment, awe, excitement, escapism, nerves!

Or, more accurately - they're a business that has to make calculated investments based entirely on the opportunity for return with that investment.

The fact that they are your hobby is absolutely and utterly irrelevant.

This by the way, is why I will never get a job in the Theme park industry.

Well I certainly won't be giving you a job

I'm not here to make friends (or enemies), let's keep debating.

 

[phildenholm]

Haha! Hilarious, but I obviously, don't entirely agree. I would suggest it's all about the beans, the airy fairy stuff comes second - it has to. Without beans you can't have anything else. Theme parks exist for beans and beans alone. If someone came to Merlin with enough beans, Alton Towers would be gone.


Or, more accurately - they're a business that has to make calculated investments based entirely on the opportunity for return with that investment.

The fact that they are your hobby is absolutely and utterly irrelevant.


Well I certainly won't be giving you a job

I'm not here to make friends (or enemies), let's keep debating.

Well that's us told! Problem is many a business has failed or gone into decline from not being able to anticipate it's customers needs or shift in needs, just look at woolworths. Merlin seem to think people want to stay at their attractions and only really seem to be investing in resorts accommodation problem is without a reason to stay no one will and the accommodation becomes redundant and the beans will all have gone elsewhere. We know it's about money I'm sure we all get that but it's very much about how to attract that money rather than watch it go get entertained elsewhere.

 

[Rob]

Theme parks are art, majestic, push the boundaries for many people of their "bravery". They are places where fears are challenged, worries put to one side, memories are made & kept for lifetimes. Places of wonderment, awe, excitement, escapism, nerves!

Or, more accurately - they're a business that has to make calculated investments based entirely on the opportunity for return with that investment.

Of course they are a business, but you also have to accept that they are what TheMan states also? It's all very well and good if it's set up to theoretically make money, but if it doesn't achieve the main aims of what a theme park is in essence then it's going to fail, or at least not make as much money as it potentially can.

I go back once again to the 1950s and Walt Disney. He created the first ever theme park as a place where children and adults could both have fun in an idealised world. Of course it had to make money but at the time it was not known if it would, all of the so called experts said it would fail massively because it did not follow established 'amusement park rules' if you like. The rest is history.

Make a place that people love and want to return to and you will make more money. Return visitors and recommendations from those who have visited are so important in the theme park industry. Merlin know this, I know they do, but they do not make the most of it by a long way.

 

[TheMan]

Well I certainly won't be giving you a job

I'm not here to make friends (or enemies), let's keep debating.

(First, to set the tone, I love debate, great to have some back on here!
OK, I wouldn't give you a job either in a creative role. Beans do not come first, beans come after creating a product. Oh, you may wish take a look at the rather amusing "What hasn't the man done?" topic... I am not without my experience in this field...

I am not an Apple fan, you think it was built for beans, or passion?

You think Jobs sat there with an abacus?

What about Gates?

Einstein?

Or perhaps Tesla, for whom you can be grateful you can even write these messages on forums due to his inventions?

Here's a quote from one of the greatest minds of all time:

"Money does not represent such a value as men have placed upon it. All my money has been invested into experiments with which I have made new discoveries enabling mankind to have a little easier life"

Beans follow good products naturally, with sensible business acumen. Yes you need to budget etc, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you just have this ALL wrong. Frighteningly so.

I like the passive pejorative and condescending tone you use in terms of this just being my "hobby". Nope, creative industries are not my "hobby", I have 20 years experience in them thanks pal.

PRODUCT FIRST.

No product? No longevity. Especially in this industry.

You have it the wrong way around, unless you want soulless, flat, inconsequential businesses (which your park would well be) that has little lasting impact upon people - which, by the way, is the sole purpose of a theme park - to create impact, and memories.

You also clearly lack understanding of even fundamental £ values in terms of products/memories.

Really your ignorance of this is quite astonishing.

My point remains. This is not the industry for your thinking.

City of London would welcome you with open arms (not sarcastic).

I'd give you a job in bottom line management, but WAY out of the way of the creative teams. They need some boundaries, but no ones you'd set. They create the product, YOU make the finance work - not the other way around.

Your move @Rick

 

[Rick]

I go back once again to the 1950s and Walt Disney. He created the first ever theme park as a place where children and adults could both have fun in an idealised world. Of course it had to make money but at the time it was not known if it would, all of the so called experts said it would fail massively because it did not follow established 'amusement park rules' if you like. The rest is history.

That's the absolute crux of my point, Disneyland was a massive gamble and a huge experiment that paid off for the original group of investors and like you say - the rest is history. With sixty years gone by, the industry is now fairly mature and chains and individual parks now have an understanding of what works and what doesn't. Also, they have an understanding of what levels of capex work relative to the revenue associated with the business.

I understand why Disney gets brought up as a comparison, because Merlin use that infamous stat, but realistically, Alton Towers has very few attractions that are on a par with E-Ticket Disney rides. It's not the destination that any of the Disney Parks are, it's a (very good) regional theme park that is transitioning to a national destination. It has 1.5m less visitors per annum than the worst performing Disney park (itself part of a resort).

We're a very disposable society, not just in the UK - all over the world. I think Merlin will move further toward a Six Flags / Cedar Fair model overall and although themed 'stuff' will play an important role going forward, it's never going to be the be all and end all.

Really your ignorance of this is quite astonishing. My point remains. This is not the industry for your thinking. City of London would welcome you with open arms (not sarcastic).

Your lack of a realistic view is astonishing to me. You can't have a product without the proverbial beans. The beans pay for the product, the consumer pays the operating organisation beans to repay the loan for the capex/revenue spend.

A £10m capex project doesn't buy you a lot of roller coaster/product, as you know. If you double that expenditure (and therefore the quality of the product) the ROI is not linear. You have the same number of people in your market (unless it has the capacity to expand massively - AT doesn't), those people have the same amount of disposable income available etc etc.

Finally, the city of London, I'm glad you brought those guys up - that's who Merlin answer to.

 

[TheMan]

Your lack of a realistic view is astonishing to me. You can't have a product without the proverbial beans. The beans pay for the product, the consumer pays the operating organisation beans to repay the loan for the capex/revenue spend.

A £10m capex project doesn't buy you a lot of roller coaster/product, as you know. If you double that expenditure (and therefore the quality of the product) the ROI is not linear. You have the same number of people in your market (unless it has the capacity to expand massively - AT doesn't), those people have the same amount of disposable income available etc etc.

Finally, the city of London, I'm glad you brought those guys up - that's who Merlin answer to.

I am quite sure you are aware of the profiteering going on within Merlin at the expense of consumer experience.

It will cost them in the long run. Floating this damn company was the worse thing that could have happened for "experience".

And how do you have the same amount of people in your market?

You have a literal potential market of the entire UK population at a theme park that caters for the widest array of visitors, which Alton Towers can.

That's 64.1million people, at any given time sections of which will be available to attend your attraction.

And unless I've read/understood your post wrong (possible, late) disposable income is nothing like that static?! There are multiple factors behind this, the general psychology of the public, the global economic feeling & literal state (which based on the BDI is crap), along with many other complex mitigating factors & considerations.

What's more, people garner MORE perceived value over time per £ spent on experiences than on physical products, and especially in times of perceived difficulty, "escapism" done right can do VERy well. They are no where NEAR running to their capacity yet, and the stronger you make your product offering, the further afield you can attract visitors from.

You really are not giving Alton Towers as a park/location/attraction anything like the credit it deserves.

Dear Wardley, you're running into brick walls in this debate with me, I am not a 15 year old with no business or creative industry experience - OR indeed for that matter... City of London experience...

Also, I note you forget to include write offs etc against capex for depreciation or assets etc, that mean anything BUT the 20 million would stand as 20 million in actual real terms against ROI, which would have a long term strategy attached anyway.

The holes in your knowledge on this are shining through like the corporate BS you keep spouting as an excuse for inferior product offerings.

I have said it once, and I will say it repeatedly - PRODUCT first, this is a creative industry, not a bloody soup factory!

Try again.