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UK politics general discussion
- Thread starter Craig
- Start date
I think he will, the question is will he make it until the end of this week or might he make it until next Wednesday? Who knows but it can't be long now.
pluk
TS Member
I can't imagine for a second he will walk away under his own volition, not his style. Either he'll ride it out or a vote of no confidence will force him out.
I've got a feeling the party will want to keep him for now for their longer term interests. There's a lot of financial pain to come to pay for covid, spending needs to come down, and brexit is still knackered. They won't want to taint a new leader with dealing with that lot for a couple of years then try and get that same face elected. They'll want to have him out when the damage is done and they can present a new better alternative to the public prior to election time.
I've got a feeling the party will want to keep him for now for their longer term interests. There's a lot of financial pain to come to pay for covid, spending needs to come down, and brexit is still knackered. They won't want to taint a new leader with dealing with that lot for a couple of years then try and get that same face elected. They'll want to have him out when the damage is done and they can present a new better alternative to the public prior to election time.
Craig
TS Administrator
He won't ever stand down of his own volition, today's statement proved that's the case. He only said what he said today because of the overwhelming evidence that the press dug up against him. The only way he will go is if the 1922 committee get shot of him by triggering a leadership contest. My personal view is that it's a case of when rather than if that happens now.
Have to say it's unreal how far the standards for holding public office have dropped in recent years. Someone outright lying to parliament - which, no matter what he says he did - is a breach of the ministerial code, and would in the past result in it becoming a resignation, or in the case of ministers a sacking matter. Yet he's still here, and the longer he stays the less likely it is that the public will follow any sort of future or even current restrictions.
Where I live currently has one of the highest rates of Covid in the country, and even in the past week or two the difference in adherence to mask wearing etc is stark. People are increasingly just not bothering, and from conversations with others this whole mess is one of the reasons why.
Have to say it's unreal how far the standards for holding public office have dropped in recent years. Someone outright lying to parliament - which, no matter what he says he did - is a breach of the ministerial code, and would in the past result in it becoming a resignation, or in the case of ministers a sacking matter. Yet he's still here, and the longer he stays the less likely it is that the public will follow any sort of future or even current restrictions.
Where I live currently has one of the highest rates of Covid in the country, and even in the past week or two the difference in adherence to mask wearing etc is stark. People are increasingly just not bothering, and from conversations with others this whole mess is one of the reasons why.
Plastic Person
TS Member
While Johnson is a different and I think ultimately less concerning beast than Trump was/is, it's anxiety-inducing to have somebody at the top of public office who is clearly so absolutely shameless. I get the impression that their a large number of Tory backbenchers who would now want him out. He is beginning to damage the party with the perceived virtues that apparently once made him such a hit.
I agree with @Craig in regards to the astoundingly low level of standards required to maintain public office these days. Johnson's attitude makes the Tory Sleaze of the nineties seem positively antiseptic, while the reality of him achieving his Prime Ministerial dream has really just exposed him as a fairly feckless political operator.
I agree with @Craig in regards to the astoundingly low level of standards required to maintain public office these days. Johnson's attitude makes the Tory Sleaze of the nineties seem positively antiseptic, while the reality of him achieving his Prime Ministerial dream has really just exposed him as a fairly feckless political operator.
IanB
TS Member
Its very strange and frustrating, but you still get people who think Boris should keep on going.
I don't know much about him or how he did as London Mayor but some of his past behaviour, some of his sound bites, and what I have seen and read, all tell me he is not someone I would trust. Maybe his position on Brexit also impacts my views on him. The conservative party is supposed to be the party of sensible mature governance, yet we are going to end up with our fourth different conservative leader in 6 years, they will be giving Watford a run for their money soon.
The sad thing is that Boris had the influence and power to convince people to do something, at the start of the Covid crisis this was a real asset, but as Craig says above, all these incidents, cause the influence to be used the wrong way, and for people to feel like they don't need to follow the rules anymore. I have found myself being more risk averse since testing positive for Covid (I am negative now, and had no symptoms), but I guess for Boris, he has felt comfortable taking more risks after catching it.
Labours attacks on Boris is great for point scoring, and there was some good sound bites in there, even if they possibly exaggerate these parties. But why not use those sound bites to encourage people to follow the rules. What is Labour supposed to do here though, all these point scoring tactics don't help make the Covid situation better. They don't help the NHS get more funding, or increase everyone working in the NHS pay packet. But Labour is not in power, so cant do any of that anyway, so I guess all it can do is hold the current government to account and that is what they are doing.
I don't know much about him or how he did as London Mayor but some of his past behaviour, some of his sound bites, and what I have seen and read, all tell me he is not someone I would trust. Maybe his position on Brexit also impacts my views on him. The conservative party is supposed to be the party of sensible mature governance, yet we are going to end up with our fourth different conservative leader in 6 years, they will be giving Watford a run for their money soon.
The sad thing is that Boris had the influence and power to convince people to do something, at the start of the Covid crisis this was a real asset, but as Craig says above, all these incidents, cause the influence to be used the wrong way, and for people to feel like they don't need to follow the rules anymore. I have found myself being more risk averse since testing positive for Covid (I am negative now, and had no symptoms), but I guess for Boris, he has felt comfortable taking more risks after catching it.
Labours attacks on Boris is great for point scoring, and there was some good sound bites in there, even if they possibly exaggerate these parties. But why not use those sound bites to encourage people to follow the rules. What is Labour supposed to do here though, all these point scoring tactics don't help make the Covid situation better. They don't help the NHS get more funding, or increase everyone working in the NHS pay packet. But Labour is not in power, so cant do any of that anyway, so I guess all it can do is hold the current government to account and that is what they are doing.
Matt.GC
TS Member
He's completely desecrated the office of prime minister and has taken a massive dump on our democracy. But I don't think anyone is really surprised by this? Yes, it's shocking in comparison to others who have held that office but this is Borris Johnson. He has no shame and never has. Look at the history of the man, you don't have to look very far to know exactly what he's like.
I know there are many who will think this is crazy, but he's not the resigning type. I think he'll carry on riding this out and I think his party will let it continue and use him as a patsy. No matter what he does, he still has a crazy Trumpian style loyal following amongst many in the country that seems built on the fact (like Trump) that he sticks 2 fingers up to this country's institutions. People like him for this kind of stuff and it's not as if there's a united opposition against him with a credible alternative. Just Starmer and Blackford shouting at him with no prospect or means of forming alternative governments themselves.
The Tories will happily sit on their hands and let him take the fall, knowing that they just need to ride his tenure out. They're still in power and there's no real prospect of that ending any time soon so why not use Johnson as the human shield until election time when they can decide whether they need a new leader or not. Despite the moans and groans, those sharpening the axes within his own party are quietly waiting to make the killer blow because they know that now is not the time. Their silence is deafening. Johnson is finished, but not just yet and not until his party decide that the rose garden drinks are over.
I know there are many who will think this is crazy, but he's not the resigning type. I think he'll carry on riding this out and I think his party will let it continue and use him as a patsy. No matter what he does, he still has a crazy Trumpian style loyal following amongst many in the country that seems built on the fact (like Trump) that he sticks 2 fingers up to this country's institutions. People like him for this kind of stuff and it's not as if there's a united opposition against him with a credible alternative. Just Starmer and Blackford shouting at him with no prospect or means of forming alternative governments themselves.
The Tories will happily sit on their hands and let him take the fall, knowing that they just need to ride his tenure out. They're still in power and there's no real prospect of that ending any time soon so why not use Johnson as the human shield until election time when they can decide whether they need a new leader or not. Despite the moans and groans, those sharpening the axes within his own party are quietly waiting to make the killer blow because they know that now is not the time. Their silence is deafening. Johnson is finished, but not just yet and not until his party decide that the rose garden drinks are over.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
Interestingly, Laura Kuenssberg said that she spoke to another Conservative MP, who said that Boris Johnson privately addressed them all and said that it “wasn’t his fault” and that he’s “bravely taking the blame for others”:
Admittedly, there’s apparently another Conservative MP entirely going around trying to find out who said this and silence their report, though, so take this with a pinch of salt.
EDIT: And there’s an article from The Times too: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ve-he-did-anything-wrong-say-tories-zxxgf6pt3
Admittedly, there’s apparently another Conservative MP entirely going around trying to find out who said this and silence their report, though, so take this with a pinch of salt.
EDIT: And there’s an article from The Times too: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ve-he-did-anything-wrong-say-tories-zxxgf6pt3
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jon81uk
TS Member
Don't think he is taking the blame either really.
Danza91
TS Member
I was totally unsurprised when he used the "technically it fell within the guidance" line yesterday. Boris won't resign, he just hasn't got it in him. It doesn't matter either way, enough people out there will continue to vote for the Tories so nothing will really change.
I've been saying for well over a year now that these MPs are laughing at us, Starmer (remember photos of his indoor gathering?) and plenty of other MPs included. The public have taken the piss a lot, mainly over Christmas in 2020. When my girlfriend and I cancelled all of our plans because we were in Tier 4, the car park in my block of flats was empty over the festive period. Also, I remember one day when I had to get some food in, the high street was packed with what was clearly family gatherings.
But yes, the Government are supposed to set an example for others to follow so I can understand why it hits differently when they stand there and lie on national television. I, and I'm sure many others are too, am so disillusioned with UK politics right now, what a mess. But hey, they know best, right?
I've been saying for well over a year now that these MPs are laughing at us, Starmer (remember photos of his indoor gathering?) and plenty of other MPs included. The public have taken the piss a lot, mainly over Christmas in 2020. When my girlfriend and I cancelled all of our plans because we were in Tier 4, the car park in my block of flats was empty over the festive period. Also, I remember one day when I had to get some food in, the high street was packed with what was clearly family gatherings.
But yes, the Government are supposed to set an example for others to follow so I can understand why it hits differently when they stand there and lie on national television. I, and I'm sure many others are too, am so disillusioned with UK politics right now, what a mess. But hey, they know best, right?
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
Can I ask a question that my parents raised with regard to the whole Conservative parties scandal?
With Boris getting lambasted for his meetings, my parents thought that Keir Starmer was being very hypocritical for the extent of his criticism given the picture of Keir Starmer drinking beer in an indoor environment (which they argued as worse than Boris’ outdoor meeting) in May 2021. They thought that the Conservatives were very valid to raise this, and that if Boris resigns, KS should also resign.
So their question was; how come KS isn’t getting the same amount of criticism as Boris?
On a side note, I’m watching PMQs… I’ve learned never to make Boris angry. The Commons is also far more heated than I ever thought it got… I pictured it being a place where people put their hands up, spoke their opinions and asked their questions quietly, but it gets very loud and almost like a brawl at times.
With Boris getting lambasted for his meetings, my parents thought that Keir Starmer was being very hypocritical for the extent of his criticism given the picture of Keir Starmer drinking beer in an indoor environment (which they argued as worse than Boris’ outdoor meeting) in May 2021. They thought that the Conservatives were very valid to raise this, and that if Boris resigns, KS should also resign.
So their question was; how come KS isn’t getting the same amount of criticism as Boris?
On a side note, I’m watching PMQs… I’ve learned never to make Boris angry. The Commons is also far more heated than I ever thought it got… I pictured it being a place where people put their hands up, spoke their opinions and asked their questions quietly, but it gets very loud and almost like a brawl at times.
D4n
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Zadra
Keith Starmer isn't PM and therefore not directly responsible for the rules.
There is only evidence of one incident.
There is no proof that it wasn't a genuine work meeting in that case. Although it is odd to have a beer at work, politicians do work long hours and this is honestly far less weird than a "wine and cheese" supposed work lunch.
I'm also not sure of the timing of the Starmer pic. It may be from a stage when we were in a less severe lockdown. All the Downing Street parties took place when we were barely allowed out the house.
You also have the culture of slease evident in Downing Street dating back to Cummings last year.
Sure it doesn't look great for Starmer, but comparing the two is desperation preached by only the most desperate of hard-core Tories.
There is only evidence of one incident.
There is no proof that it wasn't a genuine work meeting in that case. Although it is odd to have a beer at work, politicians do work long hours and this is honestly far less weird than a "wine and cheese" supposed work lunch.
I'm also not sure of the timing of the Starmer pic. It may be from a stage when we were in a less severe lockdown. All the Downing Street parties took place when we were barely allowed out the house.
You also have the culture of slease evident in Downing Street dating back to Cummings last year.
Sure it doesn't look great for Starmer, but comparing the two is desperation preached by only the most desperate of hard-core Tories.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
For what it’s worth, the Starmer picture was apparently from the local elections in May 2021.
Starmer’s own defence was that it was a small number of colleagues discussing work matters after having worked very hard towards the local elections, and when food arrived, they sat down together and ate it.
As much as I thought Starmer’s defence was reasonable, my parents didn’t buy it, and argued that it was no different to Johnson’s “work event” defence. In fact, they argued it was worse due to Starmer’s meeting being inside, while Johnson’s was outside.
Plastic Person
TS Member
Matt, you've repeatedly expressed a dislike and disinterest in the idea of drinking alcohol. Do your parents feel the same way? Just wondering why anyone would equate a series of vast, exclusive Downing Street parties with Starmer having a pint with his lunch one day.
I think millions of people have bent the rules over the past few years, but the sheer audacity and lack of accountability of the Number 10 events is on another scale entirely. Absolutely brazen and revealing of the institutionalised contempt that top-tier Tories have for their fellow citizens, energised by a man without shame.