What are your thoughts on devolution within the UK?

[Matt N]

Hi guys. With the thread about the Welsh Government’s 20mph speed limit policy having gained considerable steam over the last few days since the policy came into effect, it got me thinking about devolution within the UK. For those not aware, what I mean by devolution is the presence of separate regional parliaments in the regions of Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland; Wales have the Senedd, Scotland have Holyrood and Northern Ireland have Stormont, and these are separately elected alongside UK Parliament seats for these regions. It’s been a contentious issue for a number of years now, so I’d be interested to know; what are your thoughts on devolution within the UK? Do you agree with it, and think that it’s a brilliant idea? Or do you disagree with it and think that it should never have been implemented in the first place?

Personally, I can understand the upshots of devolution in some regards, but I must admit that I’m actually coming around to the view that overall, it’s not such a good idea. Or at very least, I don’t entirely agree with the way in which it has been implemented within the United Kingdom. And I think this for multiple reasons.

Firstly, I think that it generates confusion and sometimes resentment for those living on or near the border between two regions when the regional assemblies are allowed to deviate from national government on certain matters. For instance, Wales has free prescriptions, free hospital parking and free breakfast for every school child when England doesn’t. Scotland has free university tuition fees when England doesn’t. England has 30mph default speed limits in built-up areas while Wales has 20mph default speed limits in built-up areas. I can see how policies like these being different between the regions could foster resentment for those who live just outside of a given region, and it does give off a vibe of some things being a literal postcode lottery.

I think that that particular flaw was brought to the fore during the COVID-19 pandemic. As an example, Boris Johnson and the UK Government were imposing the “rule of six” at numerous points throughout lockdown. Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford imposed very similar limits, but they were ever so slightly different to the exact one imposed in England by the UK Government; Scotland imposed the “rule of eight”, and I believe Wales imposed the “rule of eight excluding children under 12” or something like that. I live in England, but I’m in an area of South West England that puts me only around 5-6 miles from the South Wales border. While I was hearing from Boris Johnson about the “rule of six”, which applied to me as a resident of England, I was receiving pamphlets through the door from the Welsh Government reminding me of the “rule of eight excluding children under 12” or whatever the Welsh policy was. I can see why this differentiation between regions may have been confusing for some, and indeed, I don’t really see why Wales and Scotland differentiated from the central government on the issue other than simply to be different for the sake of it. I also think that the differing lockdowns at (sometimes) different times between the regions incentivised travelling between regions to the region with more lax lockdown rules to do certain things. For instance, when Wales had a week-long “circuit breaker” lockdown in October 2020, I remember plenty of Welsh people coming to my area to have a pint and see relatives because it was still legal in England. Conversely, when England had a 4-week lockdown in November 2020 and Wales didn’t, I remember plenty of people from my area going into Wales to flout the English rules because these things were still allowed in Wales. In the case of an issue like COVID-19, I feel that the regional assemblies were given too much individual power; I think that there should have been a united national response to COVID that all nations agreed on, personally.

Even away from rule differences, I feel that devolution also creates an “us vs them” type dynamic in certain regions, with “London” or “England” often being painted as the enemy. There’s a lot of talk about “London getting all the money” and calls for all of a region’s money to be kept in that region, but I do think it makes some degree of sense for a lot of money to go towards London, as it’s by far the nation’s largest city in terms of population and a huge worldwide economic hub. With that in mind, I’d say that London receives a lot of money because it makes a lot of money for the nation. If all the money from a region stayed in that region, I actually reckon that it would economically disadvantage some of the less affluent regions of the UK who often call for the country to be less London-centric and for all of their money to stay in their region.

I do concede that different areas will have different needs, so some degree of devolved government makes sense in that regard. However; isn’t that what local government is for? Surely county and district councils can serve a region’s individualised needs well enough that the regional assemblies aren’t needed?

So personally, I’m not sure I agree with devolution in the UK, in the manner in which it has been implemented at least. But what are your thoughts? Do you agree with me? Or do you totally disagree? I’d be really interested to know!

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Devolution is important for the independent national identities of each constituent nation of the UK. Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all have long histories and cultures that predate the UK and even England itself. Self determination for each nation is probably what keeps the union together, just about.

I think social contracts, as far as Northern Ireland and Scotland are concerned, have been altered so much without their consent that separation is inevitable. Having said that I cannot see the present UK government, or any incoming Labour government, allowing either Scotland or Wales to hold a referendum on leaving the UK. Northern Ireland's a different story, of course, with their right to hold a referendum to leave the UK and join Ireland enshrined in law (Good Friday Agreement).

One of the main arguments against IndyRef 1 for Scotland was that leaving the UK would also mean leaving the EU. Scotland (and Northern Ireland) voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU during the 2016 referendum. There is an argument to be had that the conditions on which they held their first referendum have changed so much as to make it void, or at least to hold another one. If Scotland were promised a seat at the EU table, I could see another referendum vote swinging to leave the UK.

Due to the nature of our government, England holds the majority of seats in parliament and thus power over the whole nation. Arguably this situation isn't fair. Our government is set up to be English centric, it's a quirk of hundreds of years of our constitutional democracy/monarchy. Unfortunately it means that the current parties in power are also England centric. What England wants is usually what the Kingdom gets, whether the other nations want it or not. I personally don't agree that this is fair. Somewhat ironically, of course, the situation of a foreign government or people telling you what you can do in your own country, is what lead to the EU referendum in the first place. Where the EU is concerned, however, each member state has as equal a vote as another, it's not based on population, so arguably it's fairer and actually democratic.

Amusingly, anecdotally, an observation in leave/remain politics; those who support the remain/rejoin the EU campaign are also often pro devolution/independence from England. Make of that what you will.

Sorry for the disjointed thoughts, but it might give you more things to think about.

 

[Matt N]

Devolution is important for the independent national identities of each constituent nation of the UK. Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all have long histories and cultures that predate the UK and even England itself. Self determination for each nation is probably what keeps the union together, just about.

I think social contracts, as far as Northern Ireland and Scotland are concerned, have been altered so much without their consent that separation is inevitable. Having said that I cannot see the present UK government, or any incoming Labour government, allowing either Scotland or Wales to hold a referendum on leaving the UK. Northern Ireland's a different story, of course, with their right to hold a referendum to leave the UK and join Ireland enshrined in law (Good Friday Agreement).

One of the main arguments against IndyRef 1 for Scotland was that leaving the UK would also mean leaving the EU. Scotland (and Northern Ireland) voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU during the 2016 referendum. There is an argument to be had that the conditions on which they held their first referendum have changed so much as to make it void, or at least to hold another one. If Scotland were promised a seat at the EU table, I could see another referendum vote swinging to leave the UK.

Due to the nature of our government, England holds the majority of seats in parliament and thus power over the whole nation. Arguably this situation isn't fair. Our government is set up to be English centric, it's a quirk of hundreds of years of our constitutional democracy/monarchy. Unfortunately it means that the current parties in power are also England centric. What England wants is usually what the Kingdom gets, whether the other nations want it or not. I personally don't agree that this is fair. Somewhat ironically, of course, the situation of a foreign government or people telling you what you can do in your own country, is what lead to the EU referendum in the first place. Where the EU is concerned, however, each member state has as equal a vote as another, it's not based on population, so arguably it's fairer and actually democratic.

Amusingly, anecdotally, an observation in leave/remain politics; those who support the remain/rejoin the EU campaign are also often pro devolution/independence from England. Make of that what you will.

Sorry for the disjointed thoughts, but it might give you more things to think about.

Interesting thoughts!

The point about Scotland and Northern Ireland voting overwhelmingly in favour of Remain is an interesting one. That could possibly give Scotland some weight in favour of another independence referendum, if they would like one.

You say about England holding the majority of seats in Parliament being unfair, but I would argue that it is proportionate on the grounds that the vast majority of the UK population is English. According to the 2021 Census, 56.5 million people lived in England in 2021, while 3.1 million people lived in Wales (so at a guess, around 7-8 million lived in Scotland and Northern Ireland combined seeing as the UK population is around 67-68 million). Surely the majority of parliamentary seats being English makes sense when you figure that the vast majority of the UK population is English, no? I think the EU is slightly different seeing as the EU is not actually a sovereign state in itself, but rather a consortium of countries that have an economic agreement with each other; I'd liken it more to the United States of America, where in presidential elections (as an example), more populated states do have greater sway in terms of the number of Electoral College seats they have due to them representing a greater percentage of the population. The UK is a sovereign nation, so I'd argue that votes on nationwide issues should go in favour of what the majority of people vote for, and a significant majority of the UK population is made up by England, so England will naturally be over-represented compared to the other regions by virtue of it having a much, much larger population.

That's an interesting observation. I've always been a Remain/Rejoin supporter myself, but I do not support devolution, although I'm not sure whether me being English makes a difference there. Anecdotally, though, I do agree with your wider observation. Interestingly, I'd also argue that the common hatred of Brexit among advocates of Scottish independence in particular (Wales voted Leave just as England did, so this doesn't apply to them as much) could almost be construed to be somewhat ironic, as I'd argue that the politics of Scottish/Welsh independence and Brexit are pretty similar. Both causes seem to put sovereignty above all else and endorse going down an unknown path under the promise that it will be "better".