Labour Leadership Debate!

[TheMan]

I am NOT a traditional Labour voter, but one can't help be amused/bored/enthused/irritated etc by the Labour Leadership election.

Don't be a prat & vote like a Tory/UKIP infiltrating mouth breather, regardless of your political affiliation, who would you like to see running the opposition for the best of the country?

NOT to counter act democracy by having a weak opposition, because quite honestly, if you want that well - you're more than a teeny bit fascist, but for the genuine best for the UK by having strong politics and blends of opinion!

Bring your A-debating-game.

It's been a while!

For those that don't realise, this is going to shape our country in quite astonishing ways - the election, whilst utterly beyond frustrating, is actually probably the most important marker in politics since Thatcher won her leadership battle.

Strange times!

 

[Harv]

Jeremy Corbyn, because despite everything wrong with his ideology (and there really is a LOT wrong), at his core, he is apparently a learned, decent and principalled man. The Labour party need someone with experience, values and integrity right now.

 

[Martin]

I am not a Labour voter and won't be voting for them in 2020 no matter who wins, but I get a vote in the leadership election through being a union member. I'm going to vote because I can.

I'll be voting for Corbyn. I'm not a particular fan of him, it's just that Kendall is the anti-Christ, Burnham is a hologram and I don't even have a clue what Cooper is.

Labour lost so badly because they have no identity, no policies, and are trying too hard to be the Tory party. The two main parties are far too similar and that's not good. There needs to be opposition. Corbyn won't fix the Labour party but for the sake of democracy he's the only real option. Although really it's probably time to just put Labour to bed and build a new opposition that isn't full of Murdoch puppets, billionaires and ennobled lizard people.

 

[Kelpie]

Same, I'm not a Labour voter, but I get to vote in the leadership elections as a union member! Did last time round as well, plus also this time for the deputy leader and London mayoral candidate.

I'm undecided how I'm going to rank them all yet, as we have to place them in order of preference. Haven't figured out a definitive 'last' place yet (was much easier last time!).
I don't think there's any chance of Labour winning outright the next election anyway.
Why were they were decimated in Scotland by the SNP? Because they have a leader who has principles, spoke passionately and believably. How many people elsewhere in the country said after the Election debates that they wish they could vote for Nicola Sturgeon? Quite a lot! Think back to Robin Cook, Tony Benn, Charles Kennedy etc (RIP to all of them) who stood up and spoke out what they believed in, and people admired their integrity even if they didn't agree with all their politics.
They also need to take a step back and work out exactly who they stand for, because a lot of those industries who traditionally supported Labour are now gone. Where are the next generation going to come from? I'm a union member, but there are plenty of people in jobs that can't or aren't unionised who need to have someone standing up for them. And we all know unions have been pushed out of politics somewhat, so what is the point of my membership fees going to a party that doesn't appear to actively support us anymore? What's the Labour Party for if not to support workers? They need to look to their roots.

I will admit to being from a generation that grew up under Blair's leadership. I was one of the first who had to pay university tuition fees and get a loan. I marched in London against the invasion of Iraq. Yes, there was good - minimum wage, the Good Friday Agreement (because I also lived under the continuing IRA bomb threats). But whether Labour like it or not, his influence still hangs over the party and it turns me off from voting for them. They haven't shaken that off yet.
So for those reasons I would place Corbyn as my first choice. They need a leader who can provide a stark contrast to Cameron & the Tories and give the SNP a run for their money. They need someone that people who wouldn't typically see themselves as Labour voters would vote for. We need contrast in politics, that is sorely lacking.

Of course Labour are entirely at fault for getting themselves into this mess. The public don't like 'slagging off' politics, and the more they try and put Corbyn down, well we all know that Brits like an underdog! Again, same tactic they tried to use in Scotland and failed. If they'd said absolutely nothing, he'd just be that candidate no ones heard of and will quietly fall into fourth place. But nope... Bet they're all wishing they supported Ed Milliband that bit better now.

 

[Stevie]

Got my ballot paper through yesterday.

Jeremy Corbyn has my vote. From learning about his past, he's the only one I feel has the biggest passion for caring about the working class of the country.

I stand with him on his stance on his views on the renationalisation of our industries, the Israel/Palestine situation, nuclear weaponry, tuition fees, his opposition to the Iraq war and the military intervention in Syria.

Andy Burnham is a close second, but he's just too plastic, a cookie cutter politician. There's just nothing about him. But at least he isn't as bad as the Tory lite Liz Kendall, and as Blaze suggests, the immediately forgettable Yvette Cooper.

So yeah, Corbyn has my vote.

(Tom Watson has my vote for deputy leader for his work on exposing the child abuse scandal in the government, and the phone hacking scandal in Murdoch's empire)

 

[TheMan]

I think from my understanding of it anyway, Corbyn plans a remunicipalisation of services rather than a centralised diktat version, which is actually a more modern accepted principle.

If done well it could lead to co-operatives of the public actually owning & overseeing services that ultimately they themselves use.

There are examples across Europe of this working very well.



He's modernising moderate centrism/socialism, he's also supported by many economists who aren't necessarily subscribed to the singular neoclassical economics model which has some serious and fundamental flaws



A list of supporting economists:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourki...conomists-back-corbyn's-policies-as-'sensible'

Corbyn's economics man Richard Murphy also has a blog here, this is his views on People's QE one of the most radical & controversial aspects of his economic plan which has got neoclassicism subservient "economists" and commentators in a tailspin, and the media... obviously not owned by poor people lol!

Most will probably find this boring, I do, but whilst I find it boring, it IS interesting to note how the present model of capitalism is pretty much based entirely on one single modality of understanding.

Corbyn's challenging this head on, and openly stating so.

It's a genie I suspect by the depth of opinion waged against him, that not many wanted out of the mainstream bottle & to remain ensconced in academic opinion pieces and economic corners of "youtube college" and a sprinkling of universities.

Michael Foot he's not.

 

[Tom]

Either way, the party is doing huge damage to itself with all the infighting.

Personally, I'll be glad when all the toff infiltrators are eradicated following Jeremy's election.

 

[TheMan]

Either way, the party is doing huge damage to itself with all the infighting.

Personally, I'll be glad when all the toff infiltrators are eradicated following Jeremy's election.

Broad sections of the media, and way too many MPs behaviour has been despicable.

Those people are not fit for office and should be removed.

That's a privileged and extremely highly paid office they hold, their behaviour is absolutely disgraceful and frankly embarrassing.

They should be kicked out for bringing politics into disrepute.

 

[Danza91]

I voted Labour in the election but do not know who I would vote for for the Labour leadership (if I could). Personally, I feel like the Labour party has been torn apart and can no longer recover from it. Can anyone really see them winning back the votes they lost from the likes of the Greens, SNP & gaining some of the Conservative voters in 2020?

 

[TheMan]

Can anyone really see them winning back the votes they lost from the likes of the Greens, SNP & gaining some of the Conservative voters in 2020?

Sometimes you need to rip things up to start them again.

It had become very stale, as a result our politics, bar for the fringe with Greens (I like them but they ARE still fringe), and obviously the Kippers, proving now they're not even capable of holding the debate they were formed to have. This is something I've become more knowledgeable of having actually spoken to people who were very close to the party.

They're not happy it's become what it's become I assure you, and whilst I do not subscribe to the political views they do, UKIP was certainly not meant to be a single issue personality "cult" that it's developing into with Mr Un-resign.

SNP are for Scotland. I know a fair few supporters. That's a real battleground it will never fully win back unless the SNP make an absolute dogs dinner of Scotland, which they wont, not yet anyway.

The Green vote would return IMO, SOME SNP votes will return, indeed he's the most favoured candidate amongst UKIP in terms of who'd make them return to the party - BUT, that doesn't mean they will.

Will he win Tory voters then? Potentially.

But there's 15 million votes up for grabs that didn't vote for ANYONE.

Instead they're all vying for a shrinking pool of "centrists".

I don't like all of Corbyn's policies by any means, but I DO think a lot of what he says could result in a more stable and balanced country personally.

But to win, I don't think he's got his balance right, and the immigration debate will batter his chances in 2020 UNLESS he comes up with a coherent policy that takes people's views into account - if he fails, the right will use the usual fear tactics and deploy them to the extent and extreme required to counter his narrative on inclusive society.

After we stay in the EU, which we will, that will leave Kippers with a choice - fold, become a legitimate libertarian party (yeah, right), or ramp up the immigration rhetoric (when they aren't even doing it right now on the EU! Leaving it wont suddenly magically close all the borders, it's nonsense).

No single candidate has realised the magic formula, but, as Tory policy bites further up the food chain - he's likely to be more popular than people imagine.

 

[darren]

I like the Tories. Since they have been in power I am a lot happier with the way the country is run. I thought labour were to soft on benefits. Since they have been in power, I have managed to buy a house, get promoted and start a family. My little boy was born with a poorly heart and was fixed pretty quickly so I have no qualms with the nhs.
The country needs to make cuts and I believe they are being made in the right places as they havnt effected me and have improved my life significantly

 

[Tom]

The previous government was considerably influenced - and often blocked - by the Liberal Democrats. If you want to pass judgement on a Conservative government, that will only be possible after more time.

 

[Danza91]

I think what the Tories have done to the NHS is disgusting and this is from numerous personal experiences, things which can't be changed. I will never vote Conservative.

 

[Johno]

I think what the Tories have done to the NHS is disgusting and this is from numerous personal experiences, things which can't be changed. I will never vote Conservative.

As a medical student, I'm intrigued as to what the tories have done to the NHS. Explain?

 

[TheMan]

I like the Tories. Since they have been in power I am a lot happier with the way the country is run. I thought labour were to soft on benefits. Since they have been in power, I have managed to buy a house, get promoted and start a family. My little boy was born with a poorly heart and was fixed pretty quickly so I have no qualms with the nhs.
The country needs to make cuts and I believe they are being made in the right places as they havnt effected me and have improved my life significantly

That's quite impressive for a Government that's only been let loose for 3 months.

In which time they've launched an assault on Freedom of Information Act:

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2015...reveals-behind-the-scenes-tory-freedom-of-inf

Jeremy Hunt received a petition of no confidence that blitzed 200 THOUSAND people in DAYS (created by a Dr, supported by swathes of NHS staff and hashtag #ImInWorkJeremy that trended over and over again:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334

They've also been accused a cover up of fraud (make your own mind up of course):
http://nicholaswilson.com/

Someone wrote a lovely book of what he liked to get up to (whilst allegedly calling everyone who gets on buses "peasants":
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whipping-Up-Storm-Natalie-Rowe/dp/151202421X

Plus Osborne's economics "PLAN" was based on FLAWED FIGURES - He's actually INCREASED debt by DOUBLE. He's also slammed here by a Tory economist:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html

Here by a Nobel winning economist as a "deficit fetishism":
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/2...o-good-economic-discourse.html?referrer=&_r=1

Or perhaps here, when Osborne SLAMS Labour for... underspending and promised "Green Taxes"


Of course, now Osborne's actually removed the exemption so the CLIMATE LEVY (yes, for Green Fuel), now applies to GREEN FUELS.

What a clever man he is!

Oh and apparently Fracking gets tax breaks? *but you can research that, I got that first hand from someone who should really know*

As for their benefits tripe, if you care for some real figures rather than media drip fed nonsense:
http://ilegal.org.uk/thread/7258/serious-flaws-governments-statistics?page=22&scrollTo=22745

The Tories are absolutely diabolical. It annoys me when people fall for the nonsense in the press. By all means, people should support who they like - but it's incumbent upon us when we're supporting people who affect EVERYONE ELSE, not just ourselves, in the UK as a collective (which we are, whether people like it or not, & without that recognition, the UK will fall apart or turn in on itself - so much is quite self evident) - that we understand exactly WHAT we are supporting.

The Tories belong in the Victorian age.

OH! And just to finish. Here's some thoughts on Cameron's EU "negotiations"
http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...ent-with-french-to-win-says-ex-tory-minister/

And look up some serious stuff on what happens if we vote no, and the negotiations he'd have to deal with lol!

This is the worst political party I can remember. How they're getting away with all this God ONLY knows.

Oh, and Labour weren't soft on welfare either. Neither did they run huge deficits (they're run MORE surpluses than the Tories to my recollection - easy checked) - I am by no means their biggest fan, but I hate false narrative with an absolute passion.

(Been a while since I did a "war and peace" on here lol)

Anyway, I hope you find all that interesting, and realise your fortune's got bugger all to do with the Tories.

I'm glad your lad was OK also by the way! But if you like the NHS, find a party that supports it properly & doesn't want to *as it appears* ultimately turn into a paid private system.

 

[darren]

You can moan about the government all you like.. I'm not even going to read that however more people voted for that party than any other party. I actually voted lib dem because I liked my mp although even he got beaten at the last election.

 

[bluesonichd]

Hmmm interesting
Will carry on voting Tory tho

 

[Danza91]

As a medical student, I'm intrigued as to what the tories have done to the NHS. Explain?

I don't want to share too much on an internet forum but I have had several personal experiences which have resulted in a huge amount of stress, anger and tears. I have a huge amount of respect for people who work in healthcare and do not blame them for my personal experiences - in fact I have someone very close to me working for the NHS.

But I personally believe that the Tories are doing their best to privatise the NHS and what's the best way to do that? Cut funding, ensure things don't work, ensure people get angry, privatise. This is what is happening.

 

[TheMan]

You can moan about the government all you like.. I'm not even going to read that however more people voted for that party than any other party. I actually voted lib dem because I liked my mp although even he got beaten at the last election.

There's a lot of links in there that lead to understanding what's going on in our wider political spectrum.

It's not "moaning", it's showing what's going on.

I happen to care a good deal about the future of our country to a degree I try to keep myself exceptionally well informed, which often means addressing incorrect personal assumptions in favour of getting straight facts.

This led me down the path of potentially favouring an EU EXIT, rather than being a supporter - & it's bugger all to do with immigration.

I also wished your boy well, & as I say, believe the NHS is absolutely essential for exactly those reasons & we should support people IF you believe in a proper NHS that support it.

I don't just "moan", I try to encourage others to think & see different views rather than just the tacit agreement with the press so many people have, & to do that by providing things to see or research/read to assist.

You seemed to take that personally. It was not meant as such. But if you don't wish to know, that's fine, I can't force it down your neck and neither will I.

 

[Kelpie]

I like the Tories. Since they have been in power I am a lot happier with the way the country is run. I thought labour were to soft on benefits. Since they have been in power, I have managed to buy a house, get promoted and start a family. My little boy was born with a poorly heart and was fixed pretty quickly so I have no qualms with the nhs.

Off subject a little, but I was born with a congenital heart defect - my old consultant would be proud I now go on rollercoasters in my spare time!
I have nothing but praise for what the NHS did for me, and more recently my mum after a serious accident which is why I feel its imperative it remains public and privatisation is kept out of it. She was in hospital at the time of the election and there was quite some fierce debate between the doctors and nurses on the topic of the coalition government...

The coalition government hasn't allowed me to buy a house though - but then again all of the parties are avoiding the fundamental problem with the housing market and not addressing it, which is the desperate need to get prices down. Still, the Conservatives election policy of 'right to buy housing association homes' is just wrong, wrong, wrong. They would have never put up the personal allowance that at least lets me save that little bit more alone - thank the Lib Dems for that one (I feel bad for them, they've taken all the flack and none of the praise). My union had to fight for our last pay rise. I'll probably be out of a job soon enough if things go the way they're looking under this government... :/
I'm waiting for my 3 days of volunteering leave the Tories promised, but won't hold my breath that'll be kept.

---
Back on the topic of the Labour leadership election, a friend of mine went along to Corbyn's rally in Nottingham tonight, primarily out of curiosity. Until this May's election he had always voted Conservative - his MP is Ken Clarke. He's quoted in this article in the local paper on his thoughts...
http://www.nottinghampost.com/Jerem...Nottingham-s/story-27647703-detail/story.html