NHS issues

[Skyscraper]

I was inspired to start this thread after having to wait 2 and a half hours for an ambulance for somone the other day. You don't realise the true extent of the ambulance issues until you actually have to wait for one. Don't know if there were any strikes on but we were just told there were "delays".

Has anyone else had experiences of these issues?

 

[Bert2theSpark]

Although the title of the thread is slightly misleading, your experience is entirely valid and unfortunately is becoming more common, hope you're feeling better now.

The UK is an aging population, more increasingly we need to address the issues with social care and preventative issues as a matter of public health more. The institution is having to pay up for more complicated and complex procedures taking up NHS resources, which are under pressure owing to government policy towards the service.

Beginning under New Labour, the NHS began a period of privatisation, however to understand the privatisation of the service as becoming like the US model of healthcare is misleading, and it's becoming more like outsourcing similarly to the Merlin-Aramark 'partnership'. Furthermore when Cameron came in as PM he capped NHS spending increases, meaning that whilst NHS budgets increased, it did not keep pace with the pressures of an aging population brings.

Not to mention the depressed staff wages within the service leading to high staff turnover and although the UK university system is excellent at producing new graduates, many new and existing staff are mentally and physically burnt out leading many to leave as they go for better paid wages in places like Australia.

Furthermore too many of the public see it as a National Hospital Service rather than the body for public health. This means that it's down to the national government to make sweeping reforms to the country, and with some progress under the current government with the sugar tax and restrictions on tobacco adverts, any progress is subject to the winds of the political climate. The NHS needs to have a stronger position in shaping our lives and encouring us all to live healthier and more fulfilling lives by promoting wider policies such as improving biking infrastructure nationally so people are more passively active rather than sitting in cars to make short commutes. However there will be no white elephant policy as a fix to this, they need to implement a plethora of preventive and active policies to have a tangible effect on the population. It even makes perfect sense from a business perspective, it's better for an organisation to spend £1 now if it meant it doesn't spend £10 further down the line.

The NHS as an institution as it is right now will simply not exist in 10 years, it will inevitably need reform or die. And basing on what I'm hearing from politicians such as Labour, Conservatives and the SNP, they're all bankrupt for ideas...

 

[delta79]

The use of private services don't help. Health companies are seeing the NHS as a cash cow, making large profits off NHS contracts. That profit is directly removing funds away from patient care.

Then there is the failures within Adult social care system. Extending stays in hospitals adding to the problem of lack of funding for bed space.



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[rob666]

I have been advised that the Tories have managed to "stop the clock" on many minor surgery waiting lists.
Your wait will get delayed by a day, each day, for the forseeable future, due to strikes, cost increases, covid delays, and underfunding.
I have been waiting over three years for a double lump removal, one done, one to go...the consultant has a three month waiting list.
So why have I been waiting since 2019?
The numbers don't work, the system is bust, the private alternative has become essential for the better off...not many on low pay get health "benefits"...only the better off.
My best mate lost his mum recently after a fall...and then a half day wait for an ambulance.
The wait killed her, not the fall.

 

[Rick]

We should scrap the monarchy, sell off the Crown Estate and use it to fund the NHS for 27 days.

 

[pluk]

I've recently had to wait over 10 minutes for a 999 ambulance call to be answered, let alone have an ambulance turn up!!

Very frequently I am given delays of multiple hours over their dispatch grading target for ambulance arrival, it is now absolutely standard that that is the case.

It's a service that is hugely broken. How to fix it is obviously beyond me, but there are two huge and obvious things; building profit into a system does not save money, and they need to learn to say no to those using the wrong service. If people not requiring accident and emergency were turned away instead of put at the back of a ridiculous queue things would probably function quite well. The biggest broken area is almost certainly mental health.

 

[delta79]

@pluk experience is normal across the uk.

All bar one ambulance service is using st john to add additional ambulances to their resources due to issues within A&E clearance.

There needs to be change in the front door of hospitals. Where they is GP services, minor injuries services, mental health crisis services, maternity emergency and A&E are fed from.

An Emergencies entrance of sorts. Where people are sent to the most appropriate service. Instead of waiting in a&e for signposting.

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[AstroDan]

Like with all public services, they are on their knees. From prisons to schools, hospitals to councils.

Whilst there would always have been pressure, especially with an ageing population, the bottom line is when you vote for a Conservative Government, you are always going to putting public services on the line.

A change of government wouldn't enable any kind of quick fix, either. Rather like new management at ATR! It would take YEARS.

 

[JAperson]

Awful name for a thread that is actually quite a relevant subject. The NHS needs funding properly, that's the route cause of all the problems.

 

[Harv]

Honestly, while I'm sure your friend's wait was very unpleasant and I have lots empathy for them, 2.5 hours is not all that bad compared to some cases I've heard about recently. People with genuine emergencies (strokes, spinal injuries, multiple broken bones) have been left waiting for an ambulance for over 10 hours in my area.

Shocking state of affairs but I suppose deliberate neglect and mismanagement of the NHS is the only way our overlords can demoralise the public into accepting a privatised system.

 

[BarryZola]

We basically don't have enough people paying high enough amounts of tax to fund everything to the standard that we want it funded. Too many economically inactive people. We don't have as many good jobs any more so people pay less tax. Even if we did if any party said they were going to put taxes up significantly to pay for better public services people wouldn't vote them in. This is because people genuinely don't have the spare money to pay more tax as they're spending too large a proportion of their income on rent/mortgage so they don't have money left for anything else. Plus there is massive waste in the NHS which doesn't help. The chickens have well and truely come home to roost for this country. Good luck out there!

 

[tayspru]

We basically don't have enough people paying high enough amounts of tax to fund everything to the standard that we want it funded. Too many economically inactive people. We don't have as many good jobs any more so people pay less tax. Even if we did if any party said they were going to put taxes up significantly to pay for better public services people wouldn't vote them in. This is because people genuinely don't have the spare money to pay more tax as they're spending too large a proportion of their income on rent/mortgage so they don't have money left for anything else. Plus there is massive waste in the NHS which doesn't help. The chickens have well and truely come home to roost for this country. Good luck out there!

If people aren’t paying enough tax, where did the government find billions to waste on dodgy PPE contracts, tens if thousands on wallpaper, not to mention the money spaffed on a shiny hat ceremony yesterday. The government have plenty of money, it just goes to their mates not public services

 

[rob666]

More money could be collected from the very rich through property taxes, inheritance tax (including on the queens estate), and increased income tax for those that can afford it.
Problem solved.
The real issue is that the politicians are well aware of all of this, but chose not to.
How did Charlie Windsor manage to get away with dodging inheritance taxes again...should have been forty percent shouldn't it...a massive boost to the state at just the right time.
The logic, "Oh No, not for the King!"...when the state is so skint, passed me by.

 

[BarryZola]

If people aren’t paying enough tax, where did the government find billions to waste on dodgy PPE contracts, tens if thousands on wallpaper, not to mention the money spaffed on a shiny hat ceremony yesterday. The government have plenty of money, it just goes to their mates not public services

They in effect borrowed the money and added it to our national debt to be paid back. Something they try not to do in such large amounts in normal times (see austerity).

Edit - And yes Rob, we do need to close all of the tax loopholes that the super rich use to not pay their fair share. There are so many things to fix in this country and that is definitely one area of concern.

 

[tayspru]

Oh the national debt that has tripled since the Conservative government ? We’re the sixth richest country in the world but none of it is being spent on public services, instead it’s all funneled into Tory owned private investments and wealth.

 

[BarryZola]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that the Tories have been a disgrace. I think you're slightly exaggerating though. We obviously do spend a hell of a lot of money on public services and not all of our tax money is funnelled into the governments back pockets. The current situation is obviously not good enough and it's going to take drastic action to try to get things sorted. We simply aren't bringing in enough money to run all of our public services in a proper manner and if you think of how the population is ageing the situation doesn't look to be getting any better any time soon. The number of people over 85 years old is set to double in the next 25 years (https://www.health.org.uk/publications/our-ageing-population) and these are people who will be relying more on the NHS in general and needing care etc.

 

[Dave]

there is massive waste in the NHS which doesn't help.

People say this but then can’t ever really give any evidence to back this up?

In fact the evidence suggests quite the opposite:

Health and social care in England: tackling the myths

In what can feel like a heated political discussion, we have taken five myths that sometimes feature in this debate and debunked them.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

The NHS employs fewer managers compared to the private sector average for a start, yet all the right wing commentators love a good NHS manager waste attack.

Fact is we spend less on healthcare than most other developed nations and then wonder why it doesn’t work….

 

[BarryZola]

Yeah, actually, I just had a little browse this morning and I couldn't find any recent evidence online about any massive waste, so I'll hold my hands up to that one as it looks like I was incorrect.

 

[GaryH]

I agree there is waste in the NHS but the waste I see is in terms of how private companies rip off the NHS. For example, buying a laptop, we have to go through the supplier which won the bidding process, which usually then charges 3 times more for a laptop I could go and buy from Curry’s. But we can’t do this… we have to buy it from the approved company.

Same for lots of other items in the NHS. That’s where I see the waste and where improvements can be made. However as it’s government funded private companies see it as an endless money pit.

The NHS doesn’t work for a few reasons:

1. Increase in population, decrease in available hospital beds (lots of community hospitals closed over eh years)

2. Lack of students going into medical school which was a result of George Osborne stopping the £10k a year bursary in 2016 resulting in a 40% drop in applications of medical students. It was reinstated in 2020 at £8k per annum.

3. A more sicky population. Let’s face it, we are following America. Fast food everywhere. Deliveroo, Uber eats etc. and a McDonald’s on every corner. People are more obese now and people are eating worse than ever before. Add to this lack of exercise and we have a growing problem.

4. Access to GP services are very patchwork depending where you live. Many can’t see a GP so go to an A&E unit instead.

5. Access to dental services are practically non existent unless your private so again people go to their A&E departments for help.

6. No new hospitals despite massive housing developments. No new community sites. Limited walk in centres or many closed. And when they do build something new, there aren’t the staff to run it.

7. Ambulance response times are down the toilet. Why? Lack of capacity at A&E to offload patients, lack of beds to get the patients into. Then look at the roads with lots of road closures since covid for pedestrian schemes, speed bumps everywhere and increased traffic due to new houses and ambulances struggle to get to places on time.

 

[IanB]

I agree there is waste in the NHS but the waste I see is in terms of how private companies rip off the NHS. For example, buying a laptop, we have to go through the supplier which won the bidding process, which usually then charges 3 times more for a laptop I could go and buy from Curry’s. But we can’t do this… we have to buy it from the approved company.

But I suspect the private company probably includes the support cost in buying the laptop, insurance and other stuff, so its not a fair comparison to say you can just buy it cheaper in the shop, although if it is three times more, the private company is taking the mickey.

The idea of out sourcing your IT to a private company makes sense for organisations which do not have large buying power. If you only order 500 laptops a year, it might cost you £1000 per laptop, but a private company who is buying 50,000 laptops a year can buy it for £600 a year. The idea is that the private company can now sell the laptop to your organisation for £800. They are making £200 profit, and you are saving £200. So this is a win win scenario. The private company has made some profit, and your organisation has saved some money.

Sadly it is not as simple as above, but it gives a good idea how it is supposed to be a win win for both parties when they agree to outsource something.

As for the NHS itself, and other local services, I feel that they all do the best they can, and I am sure they are just as upset as anyone that it takes them 2.5 hours to get to someone in need, instead of 15 minutes. Nobody wants to pay more taxes, and as soon as you start talking about raising taxes, it makes it easy for the opposition to get people not to vote for you. Taxes need to raise to cover the additional costs incurred by the NHS, but how do you stick that on a campaign sticker saying your going to pay more tax, but at least the NHS will get more money.

I think this is why the leave argument for Brexit was so good, it was literally promising free money for the NHS, which was not going to cost the regular person anything. Clearly that slogan was not honest, because the NHS is not getting the extra £350 million that was promised, but it worked because it did not cost the voter anything.

You could try taxing large business more, but the challenge with large multi-nationals is they will just move their tax bases to somewhere else so you lose more tax revenue, than if it has been at the lower rate.

I like the idea of making people realize how much everything in the NHS costs. When you pick up your medicine prescription for £10, actually list how much it would cost if you had to pay full price. When you go in to hospital, and get treated for free, get a statement for how much it would cost. The NHS is free to use, but it is not free to run or maintain, and I don't think people appreciate this, and if you could get this message across better, it would make having a special NHS Tax easier to sell.