Universal GB - Archived Pre Announcement Discussion

[pluk]

I’m a little sceptical of that. Outside of hardcore enthusiasts, how many tourists are going to Disney then travelling several hours or more further to visit Six Flags?

Anecdotally, loads. Busch Gardens is probably the best comparison, and loads of my non enthusiast friends have made that journey. Of those that have done California a good few have also gone quite out of their way for both Seaworld and Knotts, although I don't know any that have done 6FMM.

I'd say the potential is certainly there, especially for the South East parks, but probably doesn't outweigh the the threat of loss from the domestic market and to the more isolated Towers.

 

[Bowser]

Anecdotally, loads. Busch Gardens is probably the best comparison, and loads of my non enthusiast friends have made that journey. Of those that have done California a good few have also gone quite out of their way for both Seaworld and Knotts, although I don't know any that have done 6FMM.

I'd say the potential is certainly there, especially for the South East parks, but probably doesn't outweigh the the threat of loss from the domestic market and to the more isolated Towers.

I think another difference is if you go to California or Florida, there's not a wealth of other activities, especially for families. Their tourism (especially Florida) is very much based around long trips to the theme parks, whereas people visiting London and travelling to Universal have a wealth of other options. It's just not a place you associate with multiple theme park trips, the same as I expect people who visit DLP are far more likely to go see the Eiffel Tower than Parc Asterix.

 

[Tim]

Alton Towers is surprisingly well known in other countries. I'd say it's better known than places like Europa Park. But it is mostly coasting of their reputation from the 90s.
If Merlin play there cards right and make the park a real modern destination before Universal opens they absolutely could compete, and then people would consider doing both in a trip.
The only disadvantage they have compared to Busch Gardens is that in America most people have to rent a car to even reach the parks. The universal here will be accessible from the airports by public transport, while Alton Towers won't be.

 

[Sazzle]

A very interesting and insightful set of information in these new documents.

I am concerned that the road network impact hasn’t been realistically looked at.

Around 10% of people would drive to the site, with a further 25% as passengers.

I live a 45-60 minute drive away (traffic dependant) in a straight line, north-east of the site. Currently, to get there by train, as they propose 35-40% of guests will do, I would need to travel into London to get a connection back out…! The proposed East West Rail would make minimal difference to me, and the majority of the East of England. Without doubt I’ll be one of the cars clogging up the A421 during morning rush hour.

I have no doubt that the train line connections will be fundamentally key in the quest to attract thousands of tourists each and every day to the attraction(s) - locals/regionals are unlikely to be the lynchpin for profitability / success aside from supplying the workforce.

Definitely digesting a few thoughts over breakfast today!

 

[jibbsie]

The only disadvantage they have compared to Busch Gardens is that in America most people have to rent a car to even reach the parks. The universal here will be accessible from the airports by public transport, while Alton Towers won't be.

bush gardens opperait a free coach journey starting at a few places in orlando, one of them is the universal hotels I could see merlin make a similar deal with universal as it would benifit both companies (universal becomes more applealing for international travelers as thry can go to other parks, merlin can get more visitors).

edit: here is the busch gardens shuttle information link, one place they depart from double tree universal orlando: https://buschgardens.com/tampa/park-info/orlando-shuttle-service

 

[ScottishChris]

bush gardens opperait a free coach journey starting at a few places in orlando, one of them is the universal hotels I could see merlin make a similar deal with universal as it would benifit both companies (universal becomes more applealing for international travelers as thry can go to other parks, merlin can get more visitors)

If this Universal project is similar to their other parks, I would say that it won't be a competitor to the Merlin parks. It will be a competitor to the likes of DLP, EuropaPark, PA and the likes. I feel that it will compete more with the likes of CentreParks than CoW, Thorpe, BPB etc. A proper 'resort' park does not compete with day parks as the demographic they are pulling is different.

A great example is that in Florida, FunSpot is not competing with Disney. Funspot is competing with the likes of Gatorland, IconPark, maybe even the Kennedy Space Centre. Disney is competing with Universal, Seaworld and maybe even the short cruise market from Port Canaveral.

 

[jibbsie]

If this Universal project is similar to their other parks, I would say that it won't be a competitor to the Merlin parks. It will be a competitor to the likes of DLP, EuropaPark, PA and the likes. I feel that it will compete more with the likes of CentreParks than CoW, Thorpe, BPB etc. A proper 'resort' park does not compete with day parks as the demographic they are pulling is different.

A great example is that in Florida, FunSpot is not competing with Disney. Funspot is competing with the likes of Gatorland, IconPark, maybe even the Kennedy Space Centre. Disney is competing with Universal, Seaworld and maybe even the short cruise market from Port Canaveral.

I would agree, but I think it could help merlin as if you are traveling to the uk for universal, you probably like theme parks and I could see people traveling to other theme parks like thorpe or alton whilst here. in addition merlin are a reletivly cheap to enter theme park in comparison to universal, on the gate prices are like £60 but normaly you can buy tickets for £30-£40 before in the us after looking at their domestic pricing a day ticket is arround $150 which is over double what merlin normally charge (the uk market normally has some great deals as they want to encourage them to travel to universal, like £350 or 14 days!)

 

[Sazzle]

I would agree, but I think it could help merlin as if you are traveling to the uk for universal, you probably like theme parks and I could see people traveling to other theme parks like thorpe or alton whilst here.

The logistics of getting to Alton Towers from the proposed site are not easily feasible, unless they’re hardcore fans who are willing to traverse the country on shocking public transport links or hire a car and brave the narrow roads through rural Staffordshire.

While Thorpe & Chessington may well benefit, I find it highly unlikely Towers will see an impact.

 

[jibbsie]

The logistics of getting to Alton Towers from the proposed site are not easily feasible, unless they’re hardcore fans who are willing to traverse the country on shocking public transport links or hire a car and brave the narrow roads through rural Staffordshire.

While Thorpe & Chessington may well benefit, I find it highly unlikely Towers will see an impact.

it is arround a 2 hour journey, they could do what busch gardens do and set up a bus service

 

[Matt N]

A very interesting and insightful set of information in these new documents.

I am concerned that the road network impact hasn’t been realistically looked at.



I live a 45-60 minute drive away (traffic dependant) in a straight line, north-east of the site. Currently, to get there by train, as they propose 35-40% of guests will do, I would need to travel into London to get a connection back out…! The proposed East West Rail would make minimal difference to me, and the majority of the East of England. Without doubt I’ll be one of the cars clogging up the A421 during morning rush hour.

I have no doubt that the train line connections will be fundamentally key in the quest to attract thousands of tourists each and every day to the attraction(s) - locals/regionals are unlikely to be the lynchpin for profitability / success aside from supplying the workforce.

Definitely digesting a few thoughts over breakfast today!

I did also think that that sounded quite low, but if they are thinking of pulling a large number of international tourists, these will probably be coming from places that are directly connected to Bedford and Wixams railways stations, such as London St Pancras, Luton Airport Parkway and Gatwick Airport. These two stations are also along the Midland Main Line, which provides direct connections to large swathes of the East Midlands and places as far north as Sheffield.

There is also one piece of the puzzle that I feel would make public transport a far more feasible option for a greater amount of the country, and that is if Universal were to provide some sort of connection from Milton Keynes Central train station, which is relatively close. Now that might not sound very important, but it does open up quite a large opportunity because Milton Keynes Central lies along the West Coast Main Line. This would open up a direct train route to the park from the West Midlands, the North West of England and all the way up into Scotland. It would also connect the park directly to a massive interchange hub in Birmingham New Street, which would make the train journey easier for many more people (myself included!).

If I were local (sadly, I’m not even close to being local…), I’d be really interested to hear about whether Universal have considered connecting to Milton Keynes Central in some way to further reduce the strain on the road.

As for links to existing UK parks and the comparison with Florida, I think Florida is a very different kettle of fish because Central Florida is known internationally as a big theme park destination. South East England isn’t, and the non-theme park draws are much more plentiful than in Central Florida. An international tourist could spend multiple days in London alone. I think a better comparison would be; do large numbers of visitors to Disneyland Paris visit Parc Asterix?

 

[ScottishChris]

I did also think that that sounded quite low, but if they are thinking of pulling a large number of international tourists, these will probably be coming from places that are directly connected to Bedford and Wixams railways stations, such as London St Pancras, Luton Airport Parkway and Gatwick Airport. These two stations are also along the Midland Main Line, which provides direct connections to large swathes of the East Midlands and places as far north as Sheffield.

There is also one piece of the puzzle that I feel would make public transport a far more feasible option for a greater amount of the country, and that is if Universal were to provide some sort of connection from Milton Keynes Central train station, which is relatively close. Now that might not sound very important, but it does open up quite a large opportunity because Milton Keynes Central lies along the West Coast Main Line. This would open up a direct train route to the park from the West Midlands, the North West of England and all the way up into Scotland. It would also connect the park directly to a massive interchange hub in Birmingham New Street, which would make the train journey easier for many more people (myself included!).

If I were local (sadly, I’m not), I’d be really interested to hear about whether Universal have considered connecting to Milton Keynes in some way to further reduce the strain on the roads.

The plans show provision for a Transport Hub by the new Midland Mainline railway station. It looks as if they are planning for more public transportation than just train.

In any case, if they do have a Mainline and Branch line station, I am sure rail companies will add capacity to the park from all sorts of places simply because it would be profitable for them to do so. You will always have people that will drive, but other than peak times (bank holidays etc.) I don't think it would be any where near as bad as the likes of Towers or Thorpe on a busy day simply because they are planning infrastructure at the outset and not just crossing fingers and hoping for the best (like merlin!)

 

[dave___]

A very interesting and insightful set of information in these new documents.

I am concerned that the road network impact hasn’t been realistically looked at.



I live a 45-60 minute drive away (traffic dependant) in a straight line, north-east of the site. Currently, to get there by train, as they propose 35-40% of guests will do, I would need to travel into London to get a connection back out…! The proposed East West Rail would make minimal difference to me, and the majority of the East of England. Without doubt I’ll be one of the cars clogging up the A421 during morning rush hour.

I have no doubt that the train line connections will be fundamentally key in the quest to attract thousands of tourists each and every day to the attraction(s) - locals/regionals are unlikely to be the lynchpin for profitability / success aside from supplying the workforce.

Definitely digesting a few thoughts over breakfast today!

Having worked closely with National Highways road design teams in the past they will absolutely grind the project to a halt until proper (their own) traffic flow models are done. Somehow I don't think they will agree with Universal's proposals if there is even a minor impact on the M1.

They are clearly pushing the public transport with only offering 4200 parking spaces though.

 

[Dave]

Very very likely to happen now (I thought it was fairly likely before anyway).

In terms of the effect on Alton Towers, it will hopefully be a good thing and force them into investing properly. It might see O'Neil booted pretty quickly as well if he is indeed behind the apparent delay to Horizon, a crazy decision if real and true. It's already been six years since the last major new ride - that's hardly upping your game, it's a regression.

Alton Towers is joint third place for total number of rollercoasters in Europe, it can manage without another one for a little while, I actually think any delay in Horizon is strategic with an eye on universal (not convinced it’s actually delayed but that’s a different story).

The park needs more capacity and improved maintenance to compete with Universal if it comes to fruition. That said I don’t think Towers is the most at risk from this project, Chessington is probably the most vulnerable due to proximity and aligned target audience.

 

[AT86]

They are clearly pushing the public transport with only offering 4200 parking spaces though.

For reference Alton Towers have somewhere in the region of 6500 parking spaces for a park which presumably attracts far less customers than Universal will be planning for. However barely anyone reaches Alton Towers by public transport compared to the links this new park will have.

In terms of the discussion on folks visiting Alton Towers & Universal - I cannot see there being too many guests who would plan this trip (relative to the total visitor population) however if this new park will sit on the Midland Mainline then there are options - for example a direct train to either Derby or East Mids Parkway could be linked with a bus straight to Towers.

East Midlands Parkway is a very underused station that is only around 45mins from Towers by road, so they could work something out if needed.

 

[dave___]

Alton Towers is joint third place for total number of rollercoasters in Europe, it can manage without another one for a little while, I actually think any delay in Horizon is strategic with an eye on universal (not convinced it’s actually delayed but that’s a different story).

The park needs more capacity and improved maintenance to compete with Universal if it comes to fruition. That said I don’t think Towers is the most at risk from this project, Chessington is probably the most vulnerable due to proximity and aligned target audience.

Probably Drayton Manor and Paultons too. Both have their niche but their customer base won't stand a chance if Universal pivot to a younger audience and throw Minions everywhere

 

[Quantum]

Probably Drayton Manor and Paultons too. Both have their niche but their customer base won't stand a chance if Universal pivot to a younger audience and throw Minions everywhere

Poultons will be fine, it's far enough away to not be directly affected. It's also pulls on alot of people on holiday along the south coast, it's quite well positioned for that.

Drayton may take a hit in attendance initially but they have been quite good value for money in ticket terms. Universal will be expensive so they will be a cheaper day out, not everyone will be able to afford regular trips to Universal.

I'd say Chessington is the park at most risk. It's not a that competitive price wise and will be a similar demographic. It's also the worst run of all the Merlin parks. They do have the water park opening which is something but they really need to sort the park out before Universal opens.

It may finish off struggling parks like Lightwater Valley and Pleasurewood Hills

 

[Night Watchman]

Vloggers have been pretty slow on the new Universal news, only seen a couple of posts on X about it and almost nothing on Youtube

This video sums up the latest news pretty well


From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RAX0F6-af0&t

 

[Adam H]

I do think 35% of guests by car is optimistic, I think atleast 50%. But in regards to the midland mainline and west coast mainline links recently discussed, we also have the east coast mainline only about 20mins drive from the proposed resort. If there's an issue on Thamslink and I want to get home, I always opt for the east coast mainline next door at King's Cross and get off at Sandy. Coaches from Sandy or Biggleswade and MK to Universal would probably be a good shout.

 

[ScottishChris]

Poultons will be fine, it's far enough away to not be directly affected. It's also pulls on alot of people on holiday along the south coast, it's quite well positioned for that.

Drayton may take a hit in attendance initially but they have been quite good value for money in ticket terms. Universal will be expensive so they will be a cheaper day out, not everyone will be able to afford regular trips to Universal.

I'd say Chessington is the park at most risk. It's not a that competitive price wise and will be a similar demographic. It's also the worst run of all the Merlin parks. They do have the water park opening which is something but they really need to sort the park out before Universal opens.

It may finish off struggling parks like Lightwater Valley and Pleasurewood Hills

It won't finish off any of these parks, it probably will barely affect them.. I think you are missing a very major motivator here:
Lightwater Valley - £20
Pleasurewood Hills - £19
Drayton Mannor - £30
Chessington - £35

Universal will likely be closer to £100+ per person. They are not operating in the same leagues and Universal will be a resort park, whereas most of our current parks are day parks at best. Nobody in their right mind would stop going to Lightwater Valley at a cost of £20 per person and make a direct switch to Universal. It is like saying supermarkets like Iceland will fail because a Waitrose opens in the same town.

As stated previously, the places affected will be the likes of Europa, DLP etc. The places that you save for, and plan a full trip around. In the UK, Towers could be affected, but lets be honest - they are in different leagues.

 

[Bowser]

I do think 35% of guests by car is optimistic, I think atleast 50%. But in regards to the midland mainline and west coast mainline links recently discussed, we also have the east coast mainline only about 20mins drive from the proposed resort. If there's an issue on Thamslink and I want to get home, I always opt for the east coast mainline next door at King's Cross and get off at Sandy. Coaches from Sandy or Biggleswade and MK to Universal would probably be a good shout.

To play devils advocate you would imagine they’ve based these estimates on actual data rather than pulling them out of thin air.

DLP seems the closest comparison so wouldn’t be surprised if they have used data from their.

Realistically you’ve got to think the vast majority of visitors are coming from London.