• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future

Jb85 said:
Do Merlin own the land at chessie and thorpe

I genuinely think the problem is over expansion coupled with crippling cost rises.

AT being in the middle of nowhere must make it harder to managed. What was once the crown jewel seems pretty unloved.
Click to expand...
Merlin own the land for Chessington World of Adventures, but not Thorpe Park.

Theme Parks

www.lxireit.com www.lxireit.com

I believe the freehold for Legoland Windsor is still owned by The Lego Group independently, and that operations for the park were sold to Blackstone, before being folded into Merlin Entertainments.

Merlin do not hold the freehold for Madame Tussauds either, having also sold that off to Leslau. It's now owned by a Taiwanese investment group.
europe-re.com

Secure Income REIT Plc sells Madame Tussauds freehold investment for €469.3 mln (UK)

The Board of Secure Income REIT announces that it has exchanged contracts for the sale of the Madame Tussauds property investment to the Fubon Life Insurance Co
europe-re.com europe-re.com

The concern isn't that the parent company isn't turning a profit. The concern is that the parent company aren't, or won't, invest in Alton Towers to get it up to scratch. The capital is there, but given that they down have ownership of the site and other brands are more successful for the parent, I think the RTPs are the ugly step children of the group.
 
Benzin said:
As always, as long as the higher ups are getting their wages and bonuses the less they care about the actual methods.

Good old capitalism.
Click to expand...
The money is flowing, just not to the RTPs.

Compare the Legoland Shanghai Resort "Creator Train" float parade, which was part of the Shanghai Tourism Festival, with the launch performance for Hyperia. The two are in entirely different leagues. This is the same company, the same Merlin. The ability is there, the cash for the UK is not.


From: https://youtu.be/4IijtOlcpvM?si=bM27mMSLvAuE47r8
 
Double post, whip me.

Merlin isn't in the theme park, or leisure, industry in the UK really. It's in the membership subscription industry. I pay more for my PureGym membership than I do a MAP, spread throughout the year.

For those unaware of the PureGym model, they run hundreds of sites throughout the country. They're essentially unstaffed, with the trainers who are there being self-employed but still expected to contribute a bit to the general tidiness of the place. Access is granted by a barcode. The facilities are pretty bare bones, being nice and polished to begin with but quickly falling into disrepair within about a year of opening. The showers are functional, but usually surrounded by black mould. The cardio machines and weights machines are a plenty, but in various states of disrepair. They mostly work, but when something goes wrong it's out of action for quite some time. They do occasionally run classes, but they're not of a great standard, not frequent and not varied. I have access to a pretty substandard product, 24/7, 365.

£22.99 a month isn't absolutely loads, it's enough for me to not miss it. It's enough for me to see coming up in my transaction list every month and go "well I may as well keep it there, I do get some use out of it". There are some months when I go to the gym 4-5 times a week, there are months that life gets in the way and I just forget. Whenever I do go, I don't have a great time. I enjoy the workout, but I'm aware of how peeling everything is at the edges, but then I remember I'm ONLY paying £22.99 a month for it and think "well, it's not that bad".

Merlin, in the UK, operate in the same way. The offering is enough, against the subscription rate, for it to be just about worthwhile and more hassle to cancel it. Bad visits happen, the next one might be better. I can always visit another attraction.

There are other gyms near me, of course. There's the local council owned leisure centre, operated by a third party private entity. For £55.99 I get worse access than I do to PureGym. Sure there's a swimming pool, which I'll occasionally have a splash about in, but I can't justify more than double the price for what may be a more enjoyable environment and experience, for worse access and roughly the same offering.

For the purpose of this analogy, the local leisure centre is your Drayton Manor, Blackpool Pleasure Beach, or Paulton's Park, or other UK theme park operator. They have annual passes, which roughly fall in line with Merlin's pricing (or are wildly out), but I don't feel as though they offer the same level of value compared to the price. I get multiple venues with my MAP, of roughly acceptable quality. The environments of the other parks may be better, the variety may be fresher for me, but it's not quite enough to get me to switch. They're the swimming pools of the analogy. I'll go and pay for access to the pool / park occasionally, for a splash about, but that's it.

Universal. Universal! UNIVERSAL! UNIVERSAL WILL SOLVE ALL! - Universal, if it ever happens, would be comparable to a David Lloyd. World class spas, tennis and racquet courts, restaurants and bars, one of the most premium offerings you could hope for a leisure facility going. At £194.00 a month it is outside of my affordability zone. The offering is unparalleled, yes. Maybe one day. If I save up, I could possibly afford it. If I have a friend who's a member, I could probably afford to pay for a day pass. In reality though, I'm priced out. David Lloyd isn't competing with PureGym. David Lloyd hasn't killed PureGym. David Lloyd hasn't forced PureGym to up its game. The two exist in entirely different worlds. The only thing which connects them is that they have similar equipment for me to use, but that's where the parallels end.

Towers will toddle along. Occasionally Merlin will purchase some new trendy weight/cardio machine for the gym coaster / ride for the park. Once in a while the park's local budget will allow them to get the contractors in and remove that black mould in the showers, but it'll come back. It'll get a paint over, maybe a small refresh. There'll be a special event and price promotion to get people back and through the door, and when they've realised that it's not THAT bad and actually, for £14 a month (the price of my gold MAP spread across a year), they could see themselves making multiple visits throughout the year. A day out is a day out, even a poor or bad one, you're bound to have a better one. It's not that much, you can afford it, you won't miss it. It's not that bad. It's cheaper than a gym membership after all.
 
Alton Towers should be the Jewel in the crown of Merlin parks. It's in a beautiful and rather unique setting and has built up as it it's own brand over 40 years. I do wonder if Merlins head has been turned with Lego parks popping up all over the place probably seeing better returns on Thier investment.

Something is going seriously wrong with maintenance and that needs to be addresses. The aging ride lineup and lack of supporting rides is very much a chickens coming home to roost scenario.

It's sad as it's a wonder place on its day but it's being hamstung by poor operations and baffling choices like awarding Arramark the food contract.
 
Alton Towers, with its size, scope, history, heritage and reputation (I don’t mean current reputation, but long term reputation) should feel like a real destination place in my opinion. The sort of place that can justifiably charge £50 for an adult ticket due to the magic and wonder of the place - a beautiful place well maintained, renowned attractions operating properly, and just a happy place to be.

Which goes completely against the ethos of the MAP, where you can pop in every weekend working out at about a fiver a visit. I mean, it’s exceptional value at those prices even when it’s a mess.

Would love Merlin to sell it.
 
It should be on par with the likes of Europa Park, Efteling, Phantasialand etc. But it’s not, it’s not even close at this point.

It’s an embarrassment. Sometimes I get friends and family asking me about a visit to towers as they know I’ve been a lot. I think next time someone asks, I’ll tell them to not bother and recommend they go elsewhere.
 
BigShadowtinytree said:
It should be on par with the likes of Europa Park, Efteling, Phantasialand etc. But it’s not, it’s not even close at this point.
Click to expand...
Don't get me started on that 😔 It really should be however it is nowhere near the standard needed.

For what is supposed to be the UK's largest theme park, it falls short on a lot of things. They can't even get public transport right.

Paultons Park is getting towards that point of being on par with Europa Park, Efteling and Phantasialand and I wouldn't be surprised that by 2035, it'd be considered the UK's best and potentially most popular theme park other than Universal (taking into account Towers downfall trend).

The issues will catch up on Alton eventually 🤔
 
owenstreet7 said:
Paultons Park is getting towards that point of being on par with Europa Park, Efteling and Phantasialand and I wouldn't be surprised that by 2035, it'd be considered the UK's best and potentially most popular theme park other than Universal (taking into account Towers downfall trend).
Click to expand...
If you are going to take mind-bending substances, please don't combine them with Kool-Aid. Don't mix, kids!
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
If you are going to take mind-bending substances, please don't combine them with Kool-Aid. Don't mix, kids!
Click to expand...
I don't think it's completely bonkers of a prediction currently especially with Paultons growing their target audience to eventually cater to the all ages market Alton Towers intend to cater for.

Paultons seem to be coping very well with a sold out day with no more than 45 minute queues for their most popular rides.

Especially with what's going on recently at Towers and the other Merlin parks 🤔
 
Those other places are 2/3 day parks though, Paultons currently just has a couple of wonderfully themed areas.

Edit - to be fair you did say by 2035
 
owenstreet7 said:
Paultons Park is getting towards that point of being on par with Europa Park, Efteling and Phantasialand
Click to expand...
shaq-drinking.gif
 
Relife said:
Alton Towers should be the Jewel in the crown of Merlin parks. It's in a beautiful and rather unique setting and has built up as it it's own brand over 40 years. I do wonder if Merlins head has been turned with Lego parks popping up all over the place probably seeing better returns on Thier investment.

Something is going seriously wrong with maintenance and that needs to be addresses. The aging ride lineup and lack of supporting rides is very much a chickens coming home to roost scenario.

It's sad as it's a wonder place on its day but it's being hamstung by poor operations and baffling choices like awarding Arramark the food contract.
Click to expand...
It is a fantastic place, but it's not so much their head has been turned, it's about Kirkbi protecting their Lego brand. That's their most valuable asset, and it's probably why they sought investment to take the company private. Those annoying RTP's risked dragging their core Lego entertainment offering down with them if the company remained publicly listed. It looks like PLC Merlin protected the core as much as they could, but shareholders demand returns, and the bone had been scraped.

That core is certainly not those big expensive theme parks that cost a lot to run and invest in. The worst one of the bunch being Towers, which is likely the be the one that's most problematic for the way they wish to run them. You can do pretty much what you like with Thorpe Park and it'll just take it. It's small, pretty busy for it's size, it's hardware is newer, easier to get planning applications through for, no big heritage asset to maintain, the busiest food outlets are already franchised out. Whack a woefully short coaster in once every 10 years with a gimmick to replace anything that needs ripping out and jobs a good 'un.

No matter what abuse they inflict on Chessington, the passholders seem to pile in regardless.

Mick said:
Alton Towers, with its size, scope, history, heritage and reputation (I don’t mean current reputation, but long term reputation) should feel like a real destination place in my opinion. The sort of place that can justifiably charge £50 for an adult ticket due to the magic and wonder of the place - a beautiful place well maintained, renowned attractions operating properly, and just a happy place to be.

Which goes completely against the ethos of the MAP, where you can pop in every weekend working out at about a fiver a visit. I mean, it’s exceptional value at those prices even when it’s a mess.

Would love Merlin to sell it.
Click to expand...
This is what the Alton Towers Resort is all about, and what differentiates it from their other parks, which probably are compatible with their subscription model. It's not much of an effort to get to Thorpe Park and Chessington for millions of people clutching MAPs. Both have better transport links, are close to large population centres, and close to other MAP attractions. If Slammer sits there rotting for years and Chessington serves gross burgers, who cares? It only took half an hour to get here, we can come back whenever we want, and what do we expect for the price of our MAP?

Towers isn't suitable as a 'wham bham, thank you ma'am' park. It's big, expensive to run and maintain, and hard to get to. It needs to offer something more premium to get people to open their wallets. I enjoyed my Thorpe Park visit this year more than any visit I've had to Towers in the last 2 years. It's pretty much just riding on the coat tails of the past glories that it's brand name is related to.

It's now like one of those shopping centres past it's heyday. You know that boarded up shop riddled with asbestos used to house an M&S department store. You swear that vape shop used to be a TopShop. Wasn't that charity shop that closes at 4 a Debenhams that used to be open until 7? Didn't the buses used to run past here 5 times an hour? Iceland is still there at the back and looks like it always has, but I don't remember all the shelves being empty and the freezers leaking onto the floor. Why doesn't the central square fountain work anymore? Didn't both of the lifts used to work?

dave___ said:
Well, as per email just now Merlin are folding the Bear Grylls Adventure. Nice chunk of cash saved there but I doubt it will be reinvested elsewhere that it's desperately needed.
Click to expand...
Oh I reckon the cost savings will be reinvested alright. It won't be in Towers though.
 
Last edited:
Matt.GC said:
It's now like one of those shopping centres past it's heyday. You know that boarded up shop riddled with asbestos used to house an M&S department store. You swear that vape shop used to be a TopShop. Wasn't that charity shop that closes at 4 a Debenhams that used to be open until 7? Didn't the buses used to run past here 5 times an hour? Iceland is still there at the back and looks like it always has, but I don't remember all the shelves being empty and the freezers leaking onto the floor. Why doesn't the central square fountain work anymore? Didn't both of the lifts used to work?


Oh I reckon the cost savings will be reinvested alright. It won't be in Towers though.
Click to expand...

1. You just described the Potteries Centre

2. Isn't this known as 'managed decline'? In the sense that, sure it's not as good as it used to be, but newer, younger generations of guests coming through the gate will never know how good it used to be; so their expectations are lower and for the cost, they're just about happy enough to return.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top