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The Public Transport Thread

flyingguitar said:
why is AT paying for the railway, CVR would probably end up owning it even if they did pay for it, as CVR would own it, they likely would get volunteers to help out

£1000/m is very expensive and the cost a government will be paying, so is inflated this line is probably going to be limited to 30mph, and use old construction techniques (which are far cheaper, as no expensive machines are required and track doesn't have to be stretched), it also won't need to be as smooth as new lines either. they also may have stored the rail and ties (or got some for discounted prices)

I am not saying it isn't expensive, however £6m is extremely expensive for a heritage railway, I would honestly say sub £1m is probably quite reasonable for returning to oakmoore, the big question is returning to AT as that is trackbed that hasn't been touched for 60 years (could be very cheap and easy, or difficult with lost of delays (such as their leek line extension, they had to spend an additional £500,000 on extending a bank)).


the passing loops will depend on where they are, however it isn't difficult to extend the loops (this used to be a double tracked line) besides as a starting point having 2 train service (with a third diesel (and shunters) as back up) would probably be fine if you needed more you can quite easily rent them similar to how a gala would be set up, or from places like this: https://pioneer-diesels.co.uk/heritage-diesel-locomotive-hire/

If they wanted to own one, £100,000 is on the high, high end of locomotives (besides it is common for a heritage locomotive to be privately owned and not owned by the railway)

as for cost of running, that is the point of tickets, (or at least AT would pay them) and the drivers are also volunteers. TBH £750 really dosn't sound that bad, compared to the amount of busses you would need to hire / contract for a similar amount of time
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Why would CVR pay for it? It'd be a huge undertaking on a railway with limited resources. I know some of the equipment hire costs for doing railway works and nothing is cheap, with some of the equipment being eyewatering in terms of costs and will be unavoidable. They may use older techniques if the CVR built it, but it would still have to be safe and up to scratch with the ORR. Line speed would be 25mph if operated as a fully heritage railway.

Yes LSL/WCRC/Pioneer or whoever will rent out stock, locos and crew if needed but it isn't cheap. Rebuilding the railway outside of a massive outside contribution will not happen.
 
GJMarshy said:
Let's say you live in the North West of England (a huge chunk of AT's customer base given its very high metropolitan/urban population)

Even if we put to one side that you could get a train from greater manchester to Stoke and assume *everyone* drives to alton towers. Imagine you're a driver. You're not familiar with the country roads of Staffordshire. You just want to get your family to Alton Towers for a day out. What's easier?

Driving straight down the M6 to an adjacent Park & Ride (free parking) with frequent buses direct to there park entrance.

OR

Negotiating many slim and windy country lanes in an area you don't know (probably stuck in traffic through Leek), park in AT's huge car park, pay for parking, then walk 20mins to the park entrance (and back), or get the monorail (if it's still operational by then)

I'd argue one's far more convenient than the other. Hence if you mirrored this the M1 side to the East, alongside a similar facility at Stoke station, you'd likely see 50% of guests mover over to the new P&R system. The other 50% would still drive direct, but traffic reduction(as peer calculations) would be c. 50% anyway, more than justifying public sector investment to make this possible.
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I do get the idea and wholly agree that it would be more convenient.

However, this would cost a lot of money to build and implement in the first place, and a lot of money to operate.

Frequent shuttles from ~30-40 minutes away would require a lot of buses (park and ride buses don’t typically travel 30-40 minutes each way, as far as I can tell) to serve one location alone, let alone 2 or 3 as proposed. To get any kind of convenient service frequency, tons of buses would need to run.

Also, you talk about public sector investment to make it possible. But I’d question whether that’s likely to come. It’s worth remembering that the public sector refused to invest in the relief road when it was proposed, with the council forcing Merlin to stump up every penny of the required funds.
 
Matt N said:
There would surely be a fee for park and ride, though, wouldn’t there?

There’s no way Towers wouldn’t charge to park at a park and ride car park. There would probably be a bus fee as well.
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But then I'll just drive my car directly to Towers and won't have to deal with the faff and extra time of going through the park and ride process. Can also leave stuff in the car and go back to it if needed like food, clothes or whatever.
 
Matt N said:
I do get the idea and wholly agree that it would be more convenient.

However, this would cost a lot of money to build and implement in the first place, and a lot of money to operate.

Frequent shuttles from ~30-40 minutes away would require a lot of buses (park and ride buses don’t typically travel 30-40 minutes each way, as far as I can tell) to serve one location alone, let alone 2 or 3 as proposed. To get any kind of convenient service frequency, tons of buses would need to run.

Also, you talk about public sector investment to make it possible. But I’d question whether that’s likely to come. It’s worth remembering that the public sector refused to invest in the relief road when it was proposed, with the council forcing Merlin to stump up every penny of the required funds.
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It's a good point as the UK does seem to continue to believe in the fallacy that public transport "must cover its costs" - despite almost every other developed country treating it as a social good that you subsidise as you would any other public service.

But.. if we're going to play treasury's games of BCR and economic returns, we need to view it as part of a bigger picture. If you provide a free shuttle from Stoke station to the park you're driving ridership on some of the countries most lucrative rail routes (Avanti West Coast, Cross Country etc)

As for the P&Rs on the M6 & M1, you're looking at:

-Environmental benefits of reducing carbon emissions (even electric cars still have to charge using power not always sustainably produced)

-Political benefits i.e. Staffordshire moorlands is very much Tory, if Labour (or another party) promised a 50% reduction in traffic, you're winning swing voters.

-Financially, you'd use user psychology tricks. The parking is "free", the bus would cost £4 per person. Reasonable for a 30-40min express bus. Most urban buses are capped at £2, making this highly competitive. No one's going to argue it's over-priced. That's £180 per trip each way. That more than covers a conservative estimate of £115 operational costs (driver + fuel etc.) per journey. You'd be running a surplus which goes back into maintenance costs (infrastructure & fleet upkeep)

So it does stack up, it just requires a bit of political will. I think when presented with reasonable, fact-based, user-focussed evidence, it's actually not that hard to persuade people this kind of investment is fundamentally good. All about comms!
 
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Poisson said:
Why would CVR pay for it? It'd be a huge undertaking on a railway with limited resources. I know some of the equipment hire costs for doing railway works and nothing is cheap, with some of the equipment being eyewatering in terms of costs and will be unavoidable. They may use older techniques if the CVR built it, but it would still have to be safe and up to scratch with the ORR. Line speed would be 25mph if operated as a fully heritage railway.

Yes LSL/WCRC/Pioneer or whoever will rent out stock, locos and crew if needed but it isn't cheap. Rebuilding the railway outside of a massive outside contribution will not happen.
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Because they would end up owning the railway and AT aren't a charity, that is why CVR would likely pay for it. And it would be an investment for CVR to earn money through the ticket sales.

Given the approval of the oakmoore holiday place, it is likely CVR will want to, and probably will be able to, extent to oakmoore (for much less than the millions you think) so AT would only have to pay the few miles to oakmoore.

Vehicle hire can be expensive, however it isn't £1000/m expensive,
Whilst it will be safe lower tollerances can be used as there are much lower speeds (where a 70mph may have to be within 1 cm a 25 mph line may have to be within 5cm, reducing cost)
Also the older tequniques are much easier, they basically are pour and rake ballast, place sleepers, place track in sleepers, bolt fish plates and then lock sleepers. Compared to modern methods, which often includes stretching and welding track together I would expect it to be much cheaper.

The rental is more of a success deal, of you can make good money with tickets they can expand and THEN rent more vehicles.
 
Given this country can’t even build a railway on flat land between its largest cities – a railway which was designed and consulted on 14 years ago…

…the Churnet valley isn’t going to be resurrected so the good people of Alton and Farley can have a bit less traffic.

Scale appropriate for the problem we’re trying to solve and all that…
 
I feel the idea or even the notion of building the line as a heritage railway to serve a major theme park is just flawed from the start too. People will take the train for convenience, it wont be convenient if there are multiple connections due to swapping from Network Rail to heratige lines, riding on old clapped out rolling stock. Extending the time and inconveniences it would add to anyone's journey from across the UK.

For it to even be viable in the long term specficially with reliability, connections along the Network Rail infrastructure and value for money. It needs to be a proper railway not a heritage one. Thats never going to happen.

To me, people calling for it to be a heratige railway almost sounds out of desperation of clutching at straws as the only slither of hope of getting this thing off the ground. But that concept in itself will fail because it would need to a proper transport system, something heratige railways are not.
 
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P&R doesn’t effectively accommodate two key and profitable demographics.

- *Families with young kids.* Adds faff, an extra logistical step, further queuing and pram
- *People who keep their hotdog thermos in the car*. Limits access to hotdogs
 
BSwiss said:
P&R doesn’t effectively accommodate two key and profitable demographics.

- *Families with young kids.* Adds faff, an extra logistical step, further queuing and pram
- *People who keep their hotdog thermos in the car*. Limits access to hotdogs
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These same people already use the monorail.

Hotdogs may indeed break the entire concept though.
 
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Elon Musk and by extension, the human race, will have colonised Mars before this railway line re opens. Mark. My. Words.
 
BarryZola said:
Let's do some more very loose fag packet maths.

2 million visitors a year.
£12 a car to park.
That's £24,000,000

Let's say 1 person in a car of 4 pays for parking and divide that by 4.
That's now £6,000,000.

Now let's take a generous couple of million off that for higher scale pass holders who get parking for free and those who come by coach and taxi.
That's now £4,000,000.

Lose another couple of million off that by the 'park and riders' not paying the parking fee and Bianca's not going to be a happy bunny when she can't afford staff to run the park anymore.
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But I thought the money went to improving transport?

As I’ve remarked on this subject many times, and as has been said by others.

Let’s go through some facts…

CVR own the trackbed from Froghall station to Oakamoor tunnel. It could be reinstated tomorrow, and they have publicly stated their wish to do so. Particularly if/when the moneystone quarry project got off the ground. As has been pointed out by others, they could achieve these at a reasonably nominal cost as last trains ran theyre around 2008 before the track was lifted.

The trackbed beyond this point is owned by Staffordshire CC and has been pointed out by the another user, any ideas of expansion are opposed within the village. And it is believed the tunnel contains bats. And a solution would need to be found for Oakamoor cricket club access as the former railway bridge currently offers the only road access onto the land. This would not be a cheap and easy fix.

Yes Alton station building is currently owned by landmark trust. However there is a nearby mill owned by Merlin entertainments.

The platforms at Alton remain long, and platform facilities with its unique design, due to its former use as a tourist attraction train station to serve…Alton Towers!

Not to repeat myself but there is the internal access road opposite the station onto Alton property…

Beyond Alton don’t forget there is Denstone station. Platforms in tact which is tantalisingly close to the A50.

My proposed solution would be:

Leek station (route for people coming from the north) turned into a P&R location along with Denstone station for this approach from the south and East.

This would remain a heritage railway with aspirations of a mainline connection in the future.

All very unlikely, but one can dream.
 
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Poisson said:
Oakamoor might be easier than the following bit, but you underestimate the cost of reinstating trackbed unused for 60 years. The survey alone will cost thousands.
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I haven't though, I haven't even given a price or estimation for going to alton.

My problem was that you essentially said that as modern rail lines cost X a heritage railway should cost X, I think oakmoore wouldn't be that expensive (sub £1m) as I have said previously going to Alton could be relatively cheaply (compared to the £1000/m) assuming no problems, or it could be extremely expensive. it all depends on the required new infrastructure (crossings, etc) council willingness, ground etc. their leek extension has been far from perfect and cheap, they spent 1/3rd of their budget on extending a bank

DistortAMG said:
I feel the idea or even the notion of building the line as a heritage railway to serve a major theme park is just flawed from the start too. People will take the train for convenience, it wont be convenient if there are multiple connections due to swapping from Network Rail to heratige lines, riding on old clapped out rolling stock. Extending the time and inconveniences it would add to anyone's journey from across the UK.

For it to even be viable in the long term specficially with reliability, connections along the Network Rail infrastructure and value for money. It needs to be a proper railway not a heritage one. Thats never going to happen.

To me, people calling for it to be a heratige railway almost sounds out of desperation of clutching at straws as the only slither of hope of getting this thing off the ground. But that concept in itself will fail because it would need to a proper transport system, something heratige railways are not.
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I fully agree, the railway is far from the best solution. They would take way too long to arrive (honestly think it may be quicker to get a bus from stoke compared to if the line was built)

I was only discussing the extortionate price estimations and the fact it isn't as impossible as you thing, however for transportation purposes it would be far from optimal

Ash said:
The trackbed beyond this point is owned by Staffordshire CC and has been pointed out by the another user, any ideas of expansion are opposed within the village. And it is believed the tunnel contains bats. And a solution would need to be found for Oakamoor cricket club access as the former railway bridge currently offers the only road access onto the land. This would not be a cheap and easy fix.

Yes Alton station building is currently owned by landmark trust. However there is a nearby mill owned by Merlin entertainments.

The platforms at Alton remain long, and platform facilities with its unique design, due to its former use as a tourist attraction train station to serve…Alton Towers!

Not to repeat myself but there is the internal access road opposite the station onto Alton property…

Beyond Alton don’t forget there is Denstone station. Platforms in tact which is tantalisingly close to the A50.

My proposed solution would be:

Leek station (route for people coming from the north) turned into a P&R location along with Denstone station for this approach from the south and East.

This would remain a heritage railway with aspirations of a mainline connection in the future.

All very unlikely, but one can dream.
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The cricket club issue is probably much less of an issue, the bridge is very wide and designed for double track, it would probably be possible to share the bridge and have a small portion of the access road be single vehicle width (like on quite a few old bridges)

However the mill may be owned by merlin and lets assume it can be turned into a station the railway is at the bottom of the valley, like a 200ft accent to the height of the rides not an easy thing for most people, then they would have to to to At for the day, then walk back.

I also wonder on the appeal of park and ride, destone is like 5 mins away from AT, lets say 20 mins including parking and walking to entrance, instead would you have to park up (~5mins) then walk to the station and wait for a train (lets say they are extremely regular (unlikely) ~10mins), then have to walk up 200ft (probably like 20mins if you are fast) and leek isn't even that much easier to get to compared to Uttoxeter (and where would they park in leek) when comming from the north.

even if CVR reaches AT the only way I could see AT install a station and walkway is if they are forced to by locals due to traffic (and then maybe they could add a P&R)
 
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Ash said:
Sure baryzola can correct me. But the one that served the original coach park for decades?…
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If you're talking about from the Station Lodge opposite the station, then yes, there's a road from there that leads up in the general direction of the flag tower and other routes from up that way.

Edit - Looking at a map it looks like it eventually swings around the bottom of the embankment below the flag tower and goes near Oblivion and then you can continue up past the flag tower and where some coaches used to park etc before coaster corner.
 
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Ash said:
...All very unlikely, but one can dream.
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So we are in complete agreement then...for all those other words, it is never actually going to happen.

If it ever did, and I was alive to see it, I would certaily give it a go, but would never incorporate it into an actual journey to the Towers, as it would take a bus and four trains, and about five hours,

And as a non backpack wearing thermos hot dogging thoosie, practicalities would be indeed difficult.

I am an express parking posh picnicker, for a couple of decades...how could I ever cope.
I can get a double bed in the back of the volvo for my afternoon nap.

And a decent and entertaining public transport discussion over the weekend, thank you all.
 
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The Caldon and Uttoxeter Canal Trust round here want to reopen the old canal that used to be in place around Oakamoor/Alton. I think I’d prefer that before this train line tbh.

But both schemes are complete pipe dreams.
 
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I think AT will need to invest in public transport, sooner rather than later (not via reopening the train line as that isn't a good transit link) as universal comes in they may take some markey, but they also could allow for more visitors however the poor public transport links impact this.

they need bus links opening, road improvements (to allow for more busses), Uttoxeter is quite connected (with derby and stoke, 2 big rail links) if it was advertised more, 1.5hr from bham (probably the same time as driving), 2 hours from london (much less time than driving) I think a bus service could really work well in that area, if you really need more capacity then maybe a tram service, or new train line from Uttoxeter to AT station (as I said NEW line, so it will be expensive)
 
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