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UK Politics General Discussion

What will be the result of the UK’s General Election?

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I'll give you an example. The Turkish economy is not doing brilliantly. Coming here on a work Visa would probably be great for hundreds of thousands of Turks to earn some money and then send or take it home. However, they probably wouldn't get a work visa. But look! The British government have just announced that whilst asylum claims are ongoing you can work. And the best part? It'll probably take a couple of years! Who needs a Visa eh? We'll just rock up, put our claims in and be off to work for an agency for a couple of years. And it wouldn't just be one country doing it.

Come on guys, how many pull-factors do we need? It's a non-starter. Just get rid of the backlog and get new claims sorted quickly.

I think that’s a valid point, unfortunately the Tory’s deliberately slowed down applications and it’s going to take some time to get them down again (it is coming down).
 
I'll give you an example. The Turkish economy is not doing brilliantly. Coming here on a work Visa would probably be great for hundreds of thousands of Turks to earn some money and then send or take it home. However, they probably wouldn't get a work visa. But look! The British government have just announced that whilst asylum claims are ongoing you can work. And the best part? It'll probably take a couple of years! Who needs a Visa eh? We'll just rock up, put our claims in and be off to work for an agency for a couple of years. And it wouldn't just be one country doing it.

Come on guys, how many pull-factors do we need? It's a non-starter. Just get rid of the backlog and get new claims sorted quickly.

Although I broadly agree, the wait time will be an issue we still need to have the jobs available for people to take them. If there is an excess of work available that people already holding the right to work aren’t taking up then immigrants are a good option.
 
The jobs as described above have always been filled by immigrants over the years.
It is still the case.
They do the jobs others don't want to, pretty much.
 
Because I like to keep us all up to date on the idiocy of Reform (because the media seem to like to keep it quiet). In recent news:

1) After announcing their immigration policy they had to quickly back track on the plan to send women and children asylum seekers back.

2) Further they announced paying terrorists to take asylum seekers, which hasn’t gone down well even with their supporters.

3) Turns out they recently nominated for mayoral race as their candidate someone who had been dead for 6 months.

4) The party of “free speech” Nottinghamshire Reform council leader has banned the local newspaper and journalists linked to BBC local reporting from any council media event, turns out they only want free speech for those who agree with them (I’m shocked I tell thee)
 
On a different political subject, it seems as though Labour is flirting with the idea of introducing national ID cards to address the small boats issue, as well as benefit fraud, with Cabinet Office minister Pat McFadden endorsing the idea of a digital ID system similar to that of Estonia and a number of Labour MPs supporting the idea: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ats-crisis-pat-mcfadden-labour-b2816810.html#

The idea of national ID cards was first floated by Tony Blair in the 2000s, but was scrapped by the coalition government in 2010 due to backlash from civil liberties campaigners.

I’ll admit I’m not sure what I think of this idea. It would make things simpler, and it could potentially be a very simple solution to the small boats issue, but I do think the potential for privacy concerns exists if scope creep is not carefully managed.

What does anyone else think?
 
and it could potentially be a very simple solution to the small boats issue
How?

Not to make light of the situation, but asylum seekers aren't particularly put off making such a dangerous journey without a passport. How will a National Identity card, for British nationals, be a solution for the "small boats issue"?

If you're working illegally, your "employer" / modern slave driver, is highly unlikely to care about your lack of identification documents. We also already have a stringent "right to work" check, introduced by previous governments.

You cannot claim benefits if you are an asylum seeker, or an illegal immigrant. In order to claim benefits you have to verify your identity using an exisiting stringent process. A National Identify card, in these instances, would not assist with preventing benefit fraud.


The vast majority of benefit fraud is actioned by Universal Credit claimants not declaring a second income. Labourers, painters and decorators, plasterers, bar and kitchen staff, typically being paid cash in hand whilst looking for work, or looking for "more" work; each being careful not to work more than the magical 16 hours per week.

These are very weak arguments.
 
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How?

Not to make light of the situation, but asylum seekers aren't particularly put off making such a dangerous journey without a passport. How will a National Identity card, for British nationals, be a solution for the "small boats issue"?

If you're working illegally, your "employer" / modern slave driver, is highly unlikely to care about your lack of identification documents. We also already have a stringent "right to work" check, introduced by previous governments.

You cannot claim benefits if you are an asylum seeker, or an illegal immigrant. In order to claim benefits you have to verify your identity using an exisiting stringent process. A National Identify card, in these instances, would not assist with preventing benefit fraud.


The vast majority of benefit fraud is actioned by Universal Credit claimants not declaring a second income. Labourers, painters and decorators, plasterers, bar and kitchen staff, typically being paid cash in hand whilst looking for work, or looking for "more" work; each being careful not to work more than the magical 16 hours per week.

These are very weak arguments.
The argument from proponents (I’m not saying I necessarily agree with it) is that illegal immigrants, in order to seek work and make a living for themselves, often disappear into the black economy and manage to gain jobs there. Proponents argue that an ID card scheme would make it harder for this to happen, thus removing some of the UK’s “pull factors” for illegal immigration.

France are said to favour Britain introducing an ID card scheme for this reason.

I’ll admit I don’t know the ins and outs, but as I understand it, it would make illegal migration less attractive, which appeals to certain groups.

I’m not wholly sure I agree with it myself, but I can see the advantages in terms of simplicity.
 
As already explained though Matt, this plays straight into the hands of the dodgy black market employers.
People have arrived and vanished inland for generations, into communities of their own people, in large unban areas, where they can quickly find both accommodation and employment within hours.
No national insurance, tax, minimum wage or conditions of employment.
Roughly one hundred and fifty billion quid a year, and probably around a couple of million people involved within the trade.
A nice laminated card is not going to be a problem, especially with the quality of counterfeiting out there these days.

It might be handy for older people with no photocard id...driving or passport...
 
it would make illegal migration less attractive
You've conflated two different types of people here.

Those making dangerous crossings in "small boats" are not illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. They will only become illegal immigrants if their status is revoked and they refuse to leave, or they do not make a claim for asylum.

Asylum seekers are already given identity cards, as part of the asylum process. They are not allowed to work.

Every employer already has the pre-existing legal responsibility to conduct rigourous and accountable right to work checks. If you are found to have employed someone who does not have the right to work, you are criminally liable and could receive a custodial sentence. It is illegal for you to employ someone who is seeking asylum.

Those working illegally will fall into one of two camps. They will either be working cash in hand for people who don't ask too many questions, or they will be victims of modern slavery.

The introduction of a National Identity Card will not put anyone off making a claim for asylum.

The introduction of a National Identity Card will not prevent anyone from working illegally, or make it harder to do so.
 
What exactly would the benefit of a national ID card be, then? Would it purely be centralisation?

It’s always been something Blair and his allies have been very keen on, for some reason.
 
See I was always fine with identity cards so long as all they did was confirm identity, could be used to prove NHS treatment and rights etc.

There are privacy risks in theory if they do anything other than confirm identity and which services you have a right to access. But the same people who say the online safety act is limiting freedom of speech (problematic legislation for other reasons but as it stands it doesn’t do that), and the people who believe in Brexit will make too much noise against it. Guarantee Farage will oppose it by default.
 
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They've been trying to find an excuse for Identity Cards for years (as you say, @Matt N). On the one hand, I think some sort of Digital ID is almost inevitable, if I'm honest. With technology such as facial scanning, it's hard to imagine a vision of the future where the Government can't identify anyone, as much as I hate to say it.

However, that's quite different from us becoming a "Papers, please" society, which we should avoid at all costs. It's one thing the Government knowing who you are, but we should never have to produce ID, whether digital or card-based, just for being out in public.

My main concern is that this will tie in with other schemes such as a Social Credit Score and Central Bank Digital Currency. Not had your latest injections? Can't spend money here. Been a bit naughty on the internet? Then you can't venture out of your 15-Minute City. We must be vigilant about this.

This is one reason I haven't let myself become too excited about all the immigration talk recently, as much as I accept there are genuine problems. If something is in the mainstream media a lot, you can be sure they're trying to steer you towards something, and it might just be this.
 
Farage opposes, aggrieves, and withdraws. He does not stand for much implementation-wise.

Sadly Labour is comatose at this time. It may be incompetence (increasingly my view), but it could also be relatively sound strategy in that they can afford to be severely unpopular at this point in a parliament. The issue with that is you should be doing (and sticking to) unpopular things for the greater good, and I see very little of that.
 
My main concern is that this will tie in with other schemes such as a Social Credit Score and Central Bank Digital Currency. Not had your latest injections? Can't spend money here. Been a bit naughty on the internet? Then you can't venture out of your 15-Minute City. We must be vigilant about this.
The whole concept of 15-minute cities is that you have all (or most) of your local amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride (school, shops, leisure and transport). It’s a theoretical framework for city planning. It has nothing to do with restricting your rights or where you can go or do.

Don’t blindly drink the kool aid, do your research…
 
The whole concept of 15-minute cities is that you have all (or most) of your local amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride (school, shops, leisure and transport). It’s a theoretical framework for city planning. It has nothing to do with restricting your rights or where you can go or do.

Don’t blindly drink the kool aid, do your research…

Ah but you don't understand that after COVID the governments all realised how easy it was to control all our movements and are planning that we will only be allowed to live in our designated districts through ULEZ.

An ID Card would be no different from having a passport or driving licence on your person. Or any other form of card that proves your identity, such as an Access Card.
 
An ID Card would be no different from having a passport or driving licence on your person.
There is no legal requirement to have your passport or driving licence on your person, or even to own one. Historically the proposal is to make it a legal requirement to always carry your National ID Card.
Or any other form of card that proves your identity, such as an Access Card.
The Access Card doesn't prove your identity, it communicates your access needs. It cannot be used as an official verification document. It is also entirely voluntary, there is no legal requirement for you to have an Access card or to produce it.

We already have three forms of voluntary government-issued national identity documents we can use in our day to day lives: Passport, Driving Licence, and Citizens Card. None of us are inconvenienced by not having a dedicated National Identity Card, they are redundant.

The benefits for a National Identity Card are solely with the government, who would finally be able to build a centralised system to store citizens' information.
 
And as the monarch's jubilees becomes a mandatory national celebration event, the chemtrails left by the Red Arrows will ensure ID card compliance across the entire population within about five years.
 
...My main concern is that this will tie in with other schemes such as a Social Credit Score and Central Bank Digital Currency. Not had your latest injections? Can't spend money here. Been a bit naughty on the internet? Then you can't venture out of your 15-Minute City. We must be vigilant about this.
Since when have we been in China???
There are many things to be vigilant about at the moment...one is the spouting of absolute cobblers on the internet.
15 minute cities indeed, says who exactly...apart from one planning theorist called Carlos Moreno?
 
The interesting thing is that it only ever seems to be Labour who propose this. The last big proponent of it was Tony Blair, and it only seems to have reappeared now that Keir Starmer has entered government.

Why is it only Labour who national ID seems to appeal to?
 
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