[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

[Donkey]

What is going on with any future investments at towers? It’s so strange that it just feels so bleak and nothing to be ‘excited’ about. The dangle of the carrot of project horizon is so frustrating…just wish they gave this park the love and attention it needs.

I get the feeling that they want to sell Towers but only for the right price.

No-one wants to pay that price at the moment and they have already spent a lot on their big projects around the world (Legoland parks etc.) so they don't have the budget for a big investment at Towers that may or may not attract a potential buyer. So it's stuck in a holding pattern for the indefinite future.

 

[Jb85]

I get the feeling that they want to sell Towers but only for the right price.

No-one wants to pay that price at the moment and they have already spent a lot on their big projects around the world (Legoland parks etc.) so they don't have the budget for a big investment at Towers that may or may not attract a potential buyer. So it's stuck in a holding pattern for the indefinite future.

Not so sure they want to sell

The park itself makes money - that I’m sure on - and passively makes money by being on the annual pass.

 

[JAperson]

This is all well and good but i was quite specific in my statement:

I think you have to consider Nemesis reborn a major investment, B&M inverts are not cheap, and they won't have saved much by keeping small sections of track on the lift and breakrun, with all the new theming and marketing I'm sure it cost similar to any other major investment they've done.

 

[Bowser]

I think you have to consider Nemesis reborn a major investment, B&M inverts are not cheap, and they won't have saved much by keeping small sections of track on the lift and breakrun, with all the new theming and marketing I'm sure it cost similar to any other major investment they've done.

Major investment, yes.

MAJOR NEW RIDE.... no.

They will have saved in a number of ways and benefitted from a safe bet compared to a new attraction in that plot but it was certainly the right thing to do.

I haven't once said they aren't investing, i have very specifically said they don't have an appetite for major new rides. We haven't seen one since 2018, if we do see one it will now be at least TEN YEARS since the last one.

Perhaps they're trying to give Disneyland Paris a run for their money.

 

[JAperson]

MAJOR NEW RIDE

They've basically bought a new B&M invert, which is a new ride, but I take your point, in that it's something they already had.

They will have saved in a number of ways and benefitted from a safe bet compared to a new attraction in that plot

Not really, they could have put something far more markatable there then, oh yes we've redone nemesis, the same thing you've been riding since the 90's, come visit us!.

I haven't once said they aren't investing, i have very specifically said they don't have an appetite for major new rides. We haven't seen one since 2018, if we do see one it will now be at least TEN YEARS since the last one.

I think that has more to do with circumstance than no desire to invest. We had covid and Merlin have had a major drop in their credit, which is how they pay for all major investments at their parks. So the cost to build anything just went up for them hugely. I think its likely Project Horizon will be a pretty major addition, and then we could see something else just a few years later, as they know they need to stay on top of their investment game in what will be a hugely competitive market. I think it's pretty obvious they would like to spent lots of money at towers if we judge by efforts made, but I simply don't think they have the sensible financials to massively invest, so instead they are doing it slowly, perhaps hoping for an improvement in said credit rating before they uplift their investments.

 

[Bowser]

I think that has more to do with circumstance than no desire to invest. We had covid and Merlin have had a major drop in their credit, which is how they pay for all major investments at their parks. So the cost to build anything just went up for them hugely. I think its likely Project Horizon will be a pretty major addition, and then we could see something else just a few years later, as they know they need to stay on top of their investment game in what will be a hugely competitive market. I think it's pretty obvious they would like to spent lots of money at towers if we judge by efforts made, but I simply don't think they have the sensible financials to massively invest, so instead they are doing it slowly, perhaps hoping for an improvement in said credit rating before they uplift their investments.

Yet all their other UK parks tell a different story with Chessington and Legoland also seeing significant ongoing future investment on that front.

Obviously all the parks have different operational costs and comparison has its limitations but to me it seems clear Alton Towers is being treated differently... they seem content to try and manage what they have.

I hope you're right, that Horizon does emerge as something special and is swiftly followed by more but personally i have little optimism from what we're seeing the last few years.

And lets face it, if it does happen it'll simply be some form of lesser clone of what they're building at Chessington.

 

[Steve74]

Yet all their other UK parks tell a different story with Chessington and Legoland also seeing significant ongoing future investment on that front.

Obviously all the parks have different operational costs and comparison has its limitations but to me it seems clear Alton Towers is being treated differently... they seem content to try and manage what they have.

I hope you're right, that Horizon does emerge as something special and is swiftly followed by more but personally i have little optimism from what we're seeing the last few years.

And lets face it, if it does happen it'll simply be some form of lesser clone of what they're building at Chessington.

As @GooseOnTheLoose stated in another thread earlier, we appear to be coming to the end of a 3 or 4 year investment run which easily must be about £20million+, I suspect that once whatever they're doing with that area at Thorpe is complete and finish Minecraft at Chessington next year, that we'll see things happen at Towers - in fact with the small things going on with PH at the moment planning-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something happen this season or over next closed season.

 

[James]

Investment hasn't really changed at Alton Towers, it's just perceived differently due to where the investments have been going. The ongoing issue seems to be budgets for park operations and maintenance (or lack of).

If you consider Nemesis Reborn as the last large investment, it would be about right to expect some movement this year with the next large ride, which I feel will be something new (either PH or something else), and perhaps the next 'big thing' coming in 2028/2029.

It will be an incredibly long time since Wicker Man by then, but arguably, Curse and Nemesis Reborn were both essential investments that were needed to keep these areas fresh.

 

[Secret Weapon]

Now that John Burton has left Merlin, does anybody know whether Project Horizon will still be space-themed?

Or is this an irrelevant question to ask, given that it may end up not being built, anyway?

I’m not 100% certain whether the ‘space’ idea was his, but my guess is that it was because:-

(A) he was the head of creative at the time, and

(B) many of his other ideas seemed to be copied from elsewhere, and so I can definitely believe that he may have wanted to revive the Black Hole concept

^Point B isn’t necessarily a criticism, because – in fairness to him – many of the rides that he worked on were copies of earlier creations (which was not his fault), and thus he had little choice but to recycle a similar theme, such as Nemesis Reborn using the same theme as Nemesis (although, as I’ve said before, “The Curse at Alton Manor” sounds suspiciously similar to Hex’s original title of “The Curse of Alton Towers” !).

If not space, then I'm not sure what other themes AT might consider; part of it depends upon what AT decide to do with the dungeon and Walliams Land, I suppose.

 

[Jb85]

Now that John Burton has left Merlin, does anybody know whether Project Horizon will still be space-themed?

Or is this an irrelevant question to ask, given that it may end up not being built, anyway?

I’m not 100% certain whether the ‘space’ idea was his, but my guess is that it was because:-

(A) he was the head of creative at the time, and

(B) many of his other ideas seemed to be copied from elsewhere, and so I can definitely believe that he may have wanted to revive the Black Hole concept

^Point B isn’t necessarily a criticism, because – in fairness to him – many of the rides that he worked on were copies of earlier creations (which was not his fault), and thus he had little choice but to recycle a similar theme, such as Nemesis Reborn using the same theme as Nemesis (although, as I’ve said before, “The Curse at Alton Manor” sounds suspiciously similar to Hex’s original title of “The Curse of Alton Towers” !).

If not space, then I'm not sure what other themes AT might consider; part of it depends upon what AT decide to do with the dungeon and Walliams Land, I suppose.

Slightly irrelevant question I would say. I’m far from in the know but it’s almost certain whatever Horizon was originally planned to be it no longer is. And we knew very little about the original plan!

 

[Secret Weapon]

Hopefully, John Burton will spill the beans one day regarding the original plans for the ride (regardless of whether it gets built).

John Wardley has been very forthcoming about original plans for rides, as well as rides that never got built.

My only disappointment is that Bradley Wynne never disclosed what the original IP for Wicker Man was meant to be; he specifically stated in 2018 that he wasn't allowed to mention it, but maybe any NDAs have since expired?

Likewise: it would have been interesting to hear Ben Dowson confirm whether the rumour that SW7 was meant to be Halo-themed was true.

I'm not actually sure who first reported that Project Horizon was meant to be space-themed, or how this leaked out?

(Hopefully, the ride won't be sponsored by SpaceX if it goes ahead!)

 

[James]

As will be the norm with any project, they go through multiple themes. John Burton leaving will have little to no impact on ongoing planned projects. He is not the sole creator of the themes of rides at Towers or any Merlin park. He leads a team that will go through countless themes and research before they come to a final decision/design. Given how little movement there has been on PH, I would be surprised if the theme of a ride that may or may not happen is finalised right now.

 

[Secret Weapon]

I wonder who makes the final decision if the team can't agree on a name or theme?

I remember JW saying that he disliked the Smiler name, but he decided not to offer an opinion rather than veto it in case he was wrong.

I assume that the buck stopped with Nick Varney in the old days, but I'm not sure who gets the final say today.

 

[DistortAMG]

John B was a creative lead anyway, that is a very different role than being 'the head of creative'.

 

[s_g_k]

I’m not overly emotional about JB’s departure…his idea of theming was to plaster Easter eggs from old attractions everywhere and to stencil in John Wardley’s NHS number wherever possible.

If Project Horizon came to fruition whilst he was still around, I dread to think how many anagrams of “Black Hole” would be classed as theming.

 

[Secret Weapon]

I’m not overly emotional about JB’s departure…his idea of theming was to plaster Easter eggs from old attractions everywhere and to stencil in John Wardley’s NHS number wherever possible.

Given JW's advanced age, the NHS number probably wouldn't take up much space as it would just be the number 1 (JUST KIDDING !)

 

[JAperson]

I wonder who makes the final decision if the team can't agree on a name or theme?

I remember JW saying that he disliked the Smiler name, but he decided not to offer an opinion rather than veto it in case he was wrong.

I assume that the buck stopped with Nick Varney in the old days, but I'm not sure who gets the final say today.

All projects have to be approved multiple times by Merlin's board, which used to be headed by Varney as CEO I imagine, with the amount of money MMM are spending it will still have to be approved by Merlin's board now headed by CEO Fiona Eastwood. I have no idea how the make up of this board would act in comparison to the old board who really liked easy to market rides, usually with either a very unique aspect or a worlds first (UKs first etc), but as Eastwood is a former marketing director at Merlin probably similar.
Creative leads at Merlin like Burton would have a lot less power than Wardley did as Development Director responsible for all theme park major developments at the Tussauds group. These days Wardley has himself said he's very much occasionally consulted, slightly, on whether things are a good idea etc.
I'm sure there are plenty of very talented people at MMM to take over Burtons position, and I'm sure whatever Horizon becomes will be an amalgamation of what Burton left alongside what has been developed by whoever replaces him.

Given JW's advanced age, the NHS number probably wouldn't take up much space as it would just be the number 1 (JUST KIDDING !)

He is a member of these forums!

 

[Secret Weapon]

He is a member of these forums!

I didn't know that! Does anybody know his username, or has he chosen to remain anonymous? When did he mention that he is a Towers Street member? Does he actually post, or does he just read? (ex-Merlin creative team member Bradley Wynne said in 2018 that he - Brad - reads the online forums, but he didn't specifically mention this website)

All projects have to be approved multiple times by Merlin's board, which used to be headed by Varney as CEO I imagine, with the amount of money MMM are spending it will still have to be approved by Merlin's board now headed by CEO Fiona Eastwood. I have no idea how the make up of this board would act in comparison to the old board who really liked easy to market rides, usually with either a very unique aspect or a worlds first (UKs first etc), but as Eastwood is a former marketing director at Merlin probably similar.
Creative leads at Merlin like Burton would have a lot less power than Wardley did as Development Director responsible for all theme park major developments at the Tussauds group. These days Wardley has himself said he's very much occasionally consulted, slightly, on whether things are a good idea etc.
I'm sure there are plenty of very talented people at MMM to take over Burtons position, and I'm sure whatever Horizon becomes will be an amalgamation of what Burton left alongside what has been developed by whoever replaces him.

I remember hearing that companies such as Nintendo now have to rigorously test names before they are approved, in order to ensure that they are not offensive in other languages*, and also that the name can be trademarked overseas as well, and so perhaps Merlin now follows a similar process?

(*I'm not sure how thorough Nintendo's testing is, though, because 'Wii' sounded like the British slang 'wee')

Truthfully, I am surprised that the Merlin board signed off on the 'Smiler' concept, as I thought it was a bad idea from the start (and so did JW). For that reason, I assumed that the decision was made by only a small number of people, but perhaps I am in the minority and they all loved it!

 

[Islander]

I didn't know that! Does anybody know his username, or has he chosen to remain anonymous? When did he mention that he is a Towers Steeet member? Does he actually post, or does he just read?

Do you not feel that all of that is just a TINY bit invasive of privacy??

 

[Secret Weapon]

Do you not feel that all of that is just a TINY bit invasive of privacy??

It depends if he chose to remain anonymous or not!

He published his e-mail address on his website, and so I wasn't sure whether he did the same with his TS username as well.