Nemesis Reborn: General Discussion

[Dave]

I might be 100% wrong here (so please don’t quote me on this, and feel free to correct me), but I vaguely remember hearing that staff from certain rides are supposed to be able to ‘cover’ for other nearby rides if required (e.g. Smiler staff cover for Oblivion, or vice-versa), but the dedicated outfits for certain rides have caused a problem? (the Smiler outfits being the most glaring, as no other ride uses them)

Nemesis staff have their own outfits as well, although I’m guessing that this is not as much of a problem because the Sub-Terra staff (and, now, Toxicator staff) use the same clothing as well.

Yeah you are 100% wrong that a uniform causes cross cover issues.

Generally ride staff are assigned to an area of the park are work on a couple of different rides. I can’t speak for now but it used to be that ride operators had different levels (so a small ride was a lower level than a big coaster and you worked your way up the levels).

Pre-Merlin the best paid job in ride ops was the Skyride but I highly doubt that’s the case anymore.

 

[Bowser]

Pre-Merlin the best paid job in ride ops was the Skyride but I highly doubt that’s the case anymore.

Though might explain their lack of urgency at getting it open.

 

[Craig]

Please remember we have specific discussion topics for a lot of rides at the resort, the search function (limit by “search titles”) will help you find ‘em . If you’d like to talk about Skyride, please use the dedicated topic. I’ve moved a post over there solely related to Skyride and its (lack of!) operation this season so far. Thanks

 

[Secret Weapon]

Coaster Tog said in a YouTube video that the original plan for Nemesis Reborn was to make it a multi-launch coaster instead of a direct clone of the original (see video below), and he said the same thing in the comments section as well

Is there any truth to this?

I remember hearing that Merlin wanted to replace it with an entirely new ride until fan protests changed their mind, but I never heard any specific alternate ideas until now

(For what it's worth, I would have considered changing it to a wing coaster, although I realise that this was probably not possible within the space anyway)


From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaIwYsVxSD8

 

[spotweld]

Coaster Tog said in a YouTube video that the original plan for Nemesis Reborn was to make it a multi-launch coaster instead of a direct clone of the original (see video below), and he said the same thing in the comments section as well

Is there any truth to this?

I remember hearing that Merlin wanted to replace it with an entirely new ride until fan protests changed their mind, but I never heard any specific alternate ideas until now

(For what it's worth, I would have considered changing it to a wing coaster, although I realise that this was probably not possible within the space anyway)


From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaIwYsVxSD8

b&m did always want to build a launched invert...

 

[BennyBoy]

Not sure if there is any truth to this, don't think there is room for a launch coaster without knocking a load of trees down

 

[Dave]

Coaster Tog said in a YouTube video that the original plan for Nemesis Reborn was to make it a multi-launch coaster instead of a direct clone of the original (see video below), and he said the same thing in the comments section as well

Is there any truth to this?

I remember hearing that Merlin wanted to replace it with an entirely new ride until fan protests changed their mind, but I never heard any specific alternate ideas until now

(For what it's worth, I would have considered changing it to a wing coaster, although I realise that this was probably not possible within the space anyway)


From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaIwYsVxSD8

There were never any fan protests as the decision had been made to do a like for like replacement before enthusiasts knew anything was happening. It was considered to build a different layout invert but Merlin decided on the retrack, it had nothing to do with fan protests.

 

[Secret Weapon]

There were never any fan protests as the decision had been made to do a like for like replacement before enthusiasts knew anything was happening. It was considered to build a different layout invert but Merlin decided on the retrack, it had nothing to do with fan protests.

I'm glad you wrote this, as I wasn't following the creation of Nemesis Reborn at the time (until after it opened), and so I always wondered how fans made their voices heard.

I don't have a copy of John Wardley's second book to hand, but I think he mentioned that "the voices [to retrack it rather than scrap it] kept getting louder", or something to that effect - but I don't think he actually specified whose voices he was actually referring to (maybe it was staff within Merlin rather than fans?)

JW referenced the layout being "damn near perfect" in the book, which suggests that they had perhaps considered changing it for Reborn

I remember that AT kept asking guests in 2024 whether they enjoyed Nemesis Reborn (but they didn't ask about any other rides), which led me to believe (perhaps falsely) that they saw it as a potentially bad investment and thus wanted proof (for future rides) whether re-tracking old rides was a good idea or not.

Most people thought that re-tracking Nemesis was a good idea, but I know that Your Experience Guide was definitely against it, as he said that the short queues for the original Nemesis ride by 2022 (and subsequent short queues for Reborn by mid-2024) was proof of low demand, rather than high throughput

 

[Benzin]

Most people thought that re-tracking Nemesis was a good idea, but I know that Your Experience Guide was definitely against it, as he said that the short queues for the original Nemesis ride by 2022 (and subsequent short queues for Reborn by mid-2024) was proof of low demand, rather than high throughput

And you can bet YEG would've said why are they changing the layout given how good the original was if the park had decided to do that.

 

[Secret Weapon]

Your Experience Guide may have been correct that a new Nemesis layout would have increased demand for a few years, as more people may have been curious to try the new experience - but I'm not sure whether a new layout would have stood the test of time, as people may have complained after a few years (if not sooner) that they missed the old layout

I am sorry to bring the 2015 accident up again, but I personally suspect that this may have been a factor in the decision to retain the original Nemesis layout, as Alton Towers probably wanted to celebrate their past (and, arguably, their most successful ride*) and give the fans something to be excited about, instead of potentially annoying them even further by scrapping it and replacing it with something worse

*If things had been different then perhaps The Smiler could have become the park's flagship ride (and thus made it more feasible to scrap Nemesis), but the negative publicity towards The Smiler in 2015 meant that - in my opinion - this became unlikely, and thus Nemesis took on an even greater significance afterwards (although my guess is that it would have kept the original layout regardless, simply because Nick Varney and John Wardley were still around at the time, who were very nostalgic for the ride)

 

[flyingguitar]

From what I recall (I havent been able to find the post) but I think there was some VIP event where either they showed or there was a plan on the wall of the alternative layout for nemesis.

 

[BennyBoy]

Do we know if Reborn was actually a success attendance wise?

 

[Secret Weapon]

From what I recall (I havent been able to find the post) but I think there was some VIP event where either they showed or there was a plan on the wall of the alternative layout for nemesis.

I would love to see this, if anybody has it!

My question is: if a 'better' Nemesis layout is possible, then why didn't JW design it that way to begin with? (Unless it was due to a technological or financial constraint at the time)

Do we know if Reborn was actually a success attendance wise?

I would love to hear the answer to this as well !

I'm not sure how 'success' would be measured; technically, attendance remaining the same could be considered a success, as it prevented a potential decline?

There was an entire year without Nemesis in 2023, which - theoretically - should have seen a decline if people were unwilling to travel unless it was there? Although I'm not sure whether the COVID aftermath had artificially inflated attendance during that period anyway?

 

[rob666]

...I am sorry to bring the 2015 accident up again, ...

Not sorry at all though.
And I'm sorry, but the incident had nothing to do with nemesis, at all.
Every opinion is sacred and all that.
Again.

 

[Dave]

Your Experience Guide may have been correct that a new Nemesis layout would have increased demand for a few years, as more people may have been curious to try the new experience - but I'm not sure whether a new layout would have stood the test of time, as people may have complained after a few years (if not sooner) that they missed the old layout

I am sorry to bring the 2015 accident up again, but I personally suspect that this may have been a factor in the decision to retain the original Nemesis layout, as Alton Towers probably wanted to celebrate their past (and, arguably, their most successful ride*) and give the fans something to be excited about, instead of potentially annoying them even further by scrapping it and replacing it with something worse

*If things had been different then perhaps The Smiler could have become the park's flagship ride (and thus made it more feasible to scrap Nemesis), but the negative publicity towards The Smiler in 2015 meant that - in my opinion - this became unlikely, and thus Nemesis took on an even greater significance afterwards (although my guess is that it would have kept the original layout regardless, simply because Nick Varney and John Wardley were still around at the time, who were very nostalgic for the ride)

I suspect ultimately Nick Varney who was still in charge when the project was finalised decided to keep Nemesis as it had a strong connection for him, being the marketing director at Towers when Nemesis was opened.

 

[Secret Weapon]

I suspect ultimately Nick Varney who was still in charge when the project was finalised decided to keep Nemesis as it had a strong connection for him, being the marketing director at Towers when Nemesis was opened.

I've heard that John Burton was there as well, and he was a fan of the original ride as a child - but I'm not sure whether his input was as valuable, as surely visitors would have enjoyed whatever ride was in the park at the time?

Bianca was around too, but my guess is that she didn't have a strong opinion either way as she was likely in Australia when the ride opened and thus probably didn't have as much nostalgia for it (although she no doubt recognised its importance).

My point above was that Corkscrew was a huge ride in the 1980s that probably seemed irreplaceable - until Nemesis came along and eclipsed it in terms of overall popularity, which made it easier to justify scrapping Corkscrew and replacing it with Thirteen.

My guess is that The Smiler was intended to do the same thing to Nemesis as Nemesis did to Corkscrew, but this never quite happened (for various reasons) and thus Nemesis came to be seen by some as the highest point that AT ever reached, instead of simply a significant milestone along the way (as Corkscrew was), and thus there was greater pressure to retain it, instead of scrap it.

Incidentally: I'm surprised that none of the original Nemesis track was moved to the entrance plaza in order to replace the old Corkscrew track; I'm not sure if this was to avoid confusion (as some may have mistakenly then assumed that Nemesis had been scrapped entirely), or simply because Corkscrew's inversions weren't as tight and thus had a stronger visual appeal?

 

[Dave]

I've heard that John Burton was there as well, and he was a fan of the original ride as a child - but I'm not sure whether his input was as valuable, as surely visitors would have enjoyed whatever ride was in the park at the time?

Bianca was around too, but my guess is that she didn't have a strong opinion either way as she was likely in Australia when the ride opened and thus probably didn't have as much nostalgia for it (although she no doubt recognised its importance).

My point above was that Corkscrew was a huge ride in the 1980s that probably seemed irreplaceable - until Nemesis came along and eclipsed it in terms of overall popularity, which made it easier to justify scrapping Corkscrew and replacing it with Thirteen.

My guess is that The Smiler was intended to do the same thing to Nemesis as Nemesis did to Corkscrew, but this never quite happened (for various reasons) and thus Nemesis came to be seen by some as the highest point that AT ever reached, instead of simply a significant milestone along the way (as Corkscrew was), and thus there was greater pressure to retain it, instead of scrap it.

Incidentally: I'm surprised that none of the original Nemesis track was moved to the entrance plaza in order to replace the old Corkscrew track; I'm not sure if this was to avoid confusion (as some may have mistakenly then assumed that Nemesis had been scrapped entirely), or simply because Corkscrew's inversions weren't as tight and thus had a stronger visual appeal?

You have your timeline wrong, burton was around but the project was greenlit before Bianca was in charge.

 

[Dan12345]

My guess is that The Smiler was intended to do the same thing to Nemesis as Nemesis did to Corkscrew, but this never quite happened

This is about as true as Bluey intending to be a replacement for Runaway Mine Train

Smiler was built because they wanted another world’s first coaster

Wardley likely used the words “near perfect” because he didn’t want to come across as arrogant and say “nemesis is perfect”. He’s been on record as saying how he’s a fan of what Burton did with Reborn

 

[Secret Weapon]

This is about as true as Bluey intending to be a replacement for Runaway Mine Train

Smiler was built because they wanted another world’s first coaster

I havent got JW's first book to hand, but I remember him stating that

(A) The Smiler could potentially overtake Nemesis in terms of popularity

(B) There was alarm in the park that the three old B&M rides were still more popular than newer rides* (presumably Rita and Spinball Whizzer, although he didn't mention them by name; I'm not sure whether Thirteen was included or not), which was the opposite of how it ought to be, and thus rides such as The Smiler were presumably intentionally created with the aim of overtaking at least one of the three B&M rides in popularity (if not all three)

(*He said he was flattered that 'his' rides were still so popular, though; note - he added the quotes around the word his, and not me!)

It's not all that different at Thorpe Park; Colossus was intended to be the flagship ride in 2002, and Hyperia became the new flagship in 2024

It can be debated whether others rides in between ever overtook Colossus (e.g. Nemesis Inferno), although - for what it's worth - the trackwork above the park entrance is Colossus-style track

My guess is that Thorpe Park would have no qualms about scrapping Colossus etc if they ever needed to (now that they have Hyperia), but if there had been a major catastrophe on Hyperia then they may have felt under more pressure to preserve some of their older rides that reminded people of the good times

 

[Dan12345]

I havent got JW's first book to hand, but I remember him stating that

(A) The Smiler could potentially overtake Nemesis in terms of popularity

(B) There was alarm in the park that the three old B&M rides were still more popular than newer rides

Could take over Nemesis reads to me as “we’re really proud of this ride, we think the public will really love it as much as they do Nemesis”. Which it could be argued is true. You see a lot of Smiler clothing around the park, and less Nemesis clothing. Hardly any for Thirteen. It doesn’t mean they expected to be retracking Smiler in 30 years instead of retracking Nemesis

The alarm seems reasonable: they want to know why the last few rides weren’t connecting with the public as much as the classic B&Ms. That doesn’t mean they expected Spinball to be as popular and last as long as Nemesis: that would be ludicrous

if there had been a major catastrophe on Hyperia then they may have felt under more pressure to preserve some of their older rides that reminded people of the good times

If they don’t retrack Smiler it certainly won’t be because of the incident

We also need to keep in mind that 90s nostalgia is huge right now which is in the reasons to refresh a 90s icon. It’s unlikely we’ll get 2010s nostalgia in 10 years time (largely because the 2000s and 2010s were rubbish and millennials hated it)