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Farce-track

Dave - This isn't about premium products. It's about segregation and unequal treatment. Being able to buy a better viewing experience, or a better quality of something is a whole different question, an important question, but not the one I'm addressing.

Queuing is not a product, it is not a service, it is the process someone must wait to access a service. Whether you are buying Tesco value or Tesco finest, you are not given priority over the access to those products. In that sense we are at least treated as equals and not segregated and prioritised. The purchase of something cheap is still (in theory at least) as valued as the purchase of something comparatively expensive.

This is what Merlin is failing to do. They are failing to treat all customers with equal value. They are creating societal divides where one type of person is given priority to access a product over another type of person. This is discrimination.

When someone buys tickets for a West End show, it doesn't matter whether they are for seats in a theatre box or for the back row of the upper balcony, that purchase is treated equally. You wouldn't expect for the more expensive purchase to be allowed access to their seat before the more modest costing seat.

Also, I am not expecting a theme park to lead a cultural revolution against the inequalities of society, but on a theme park forum about a theme park whom partakes in behaviour that is morally reprehensible, I will not flinch to criticise the flaws in it's social attitude. Fast Track is an element of Alton Towers that I find repulsive and as this is an Alton Towers forum, it seems like the most appropriate place to put these comments.

I criticise any individual or company for acting against moral standards of fairness as it is all the individuals and companies operating in such a way that make it possible for their actions to go unchallenged. Do I think this is going to cause a revolution? Most probably not. But nothing is won by refusing to point out the problems or reach for the solution.

James - £5 a person on top of the entrance fee is a big chunk of money to a family who are not financially well off.
 
Meat Pie said:
Would it be acceptable to have different lines for black and white people or gay and straight people? No it wouldn't. So why is it OK to have it for poor and wealthy people?

Seriously? That 'comparison' you make is outrageous. It is not just wealthy people that buy fastracks. I don't have any stats to back that up but I'm pretty sure of it. As James has said, the cheapest fastrack tickets at Towers are relatively affordable. People, regardless of their wealth, are willing to pay this to skip a queue. People do not like queues in theme parks. Sure wealth will have an influence some of the time, it does for pretty much everything in life. But you can't make out that only very wealthy people are able to buy fastrack.

Meat Pie said:
This is what Merlin is failing to do. They are failing to treat all customers with equal value. They are creating societal divides where one type of person is given priority to access a product over another type of person. This is discrimination.

Also, you say Merlin as if they are the only ones doing it. You should really replace with word Merlin with 'a large proportion of theme parks across the world'. Fastrack exists. There is a big demand for it. As I said previously, people do not like to queue. It is completely logical for theme parks to offer fastrack options, and I fully support them. However as I have said many a time, they need to be managed properly. If fastrack was so totally unethical as you make it out to be then why is it still around after all this time? The answer is because it is not unethical. It exists, it is wanted, it benefits both the park and the customers (when done properly).

:)
 
A lot of those people who come to the park using free tickets from The Sun will buy fastrack, as they haven't really paid anything to get into the park, therefore using the money which would have normally go on park entry being spent on not having to wait for the rides.

Then there are the families who don't visit Alton Towers very often and will have saved for months to come to the park and then buy fastrack so they can enjoy all of the rides without the worry that they cannot fit everything in during 1 day.

There is just 2 examples of people who aren't exactly wealthy but can still afford fastrack so they can enjoy their day further.
 
Rob said:
Seriously? That 'comparison' you make is outrageous. It is not just wealthy people that buy fastracks. I don't have any stats to back that up but I'm pretty sure of it. As James has said, the cheapest fastrack tickets at Towers are relatively affordable. People, regardless of their wealth, are willing to pay this to skip a queue. People do not like queues in theme parks. Sure wealth will have an influence some of the time, it does for pretty much everything in life. But you can't make out that only very wealthy people are able to buy fastrack.

Why is it outrageous? People too poor to afford to queue jump and people who can afford to buy the push-in-line tickets are two distinct groups, which the fastrack system serves to segregate.

We can argue about personal definitions of wealth, but the fact is both groups paid to go into the park, so why is it that one group can use their money to advantage their access to the product over somebody else? All it shows is that Merlin has no respect for their standard price customers and only value people who will pump excess money into their company. Are you seriously telling me you would be happy if the theme park restaurants started a system of fast track where even if you ordered your food first, the priority wealthier customer got served before you?

Denying the same level of access to a product that both people purchased the right to use, purely on the basis that one person threw some extra money at the company is discrimination. I feel entirely vindicated to put discrimination on the basis of finance in the same category as the discrimination against race, sexuality or religion.

Even the cheapest fast-track ticket for a whole family could be looking at a another £20-£30 in total. For anyone on a budget, this is unaffordable. It is not a reasonable sum of money to demand for an add-on, and even if the price were reasonable, it still wouldn't be fair as it's still a system of paying to push-in-line which is unfair. Also just because people are willing to use one of these licenses to queue jump, does not in of itself justify the system. People do bad things all the time, but that does not make them ethical.

Rob said:
Also, you say Merlin as if they are the only ones doing it. You should really replace with word Merlin with 'a large proportion of theme parks across the world'. Fastrack exists. There is a big demand for it. As I said previously, people do not like to queue. It is completely logical for theme parks to offer fastrack options, and I fully support them. However as I have said many a time, they need to be managed properly. If fastrack was so totally unethical as you make it out to be then why is it still around after all this time? The answer is because it is not unethical. It exists, it is wanted, it benefits both the park and the customers (when done properly).

I do realise that it is not just Merlin, however this topic is in the "Alton Towers Talk" forum, and therefore they were at the centre of my focus. Just to clarify, I am against any company or person using a paid fast track system.

There is demand for many things that most of decent society would condemn. Such as paying third world labour a tiny wage to make clothing that is shockingly cheap to produce. The system of Capitalism does not care for ethics, in fact it see's it as a barrier to overcome when it risks diminishing opportunity for profit. That is how this is able to continually exist, because first of all the company doesn't care about the negative impact, secondly the customers who use fast track are so wrapped up in their personal gain that they don't care about the negative impacts either, and finally everyone else who doesn't benefit from the system fails to unite and fight injustices. That doesn't just apply to fast track, that applies to pretty much all of the world's inequalities.

Wilsy said:
A lot of those people who come to the park using free tickets from The Sun will buy fastrack, as they haven't really paid anything to get into the park, therefore using the money which would have normally go on park entry being spent on not having to wait for the rides.

Then there are the families who don't visit Alton Towers very often and will have saved for months to come to the park and then buy fastrack so they can enjoy all of the rides without the worry that they cannot fit everything in during 1 day.

There is just 2 examples of people who aren't exactly wealthy but can still afford fastrack so they can enjoy their day further.

Even if everyone could afford it, which they can't as you have wonderfully illustrated by having to go to the lengths of bringing up an example of a free ticket that a minority of customers obtain, the system would still be unfair as it is Merlin showing that they don't value the standard price guest's purchase.

As for the second example, I know far more families who can only afford to go to a theme park around once every two years (that's without an annual holiday) and still can't afford fast-track on top of the entry fee, than families who are able to save up and afford it. Then again, I might just live in a poorer area than some people on here... ;)
 
In a wide variety of services there is an option to upgrade to a more premium service, fastrack is no different to flying first class or having a nicer car than someone else.

If people want to pay extra for a more premium product they can do, it has a very small impact on everyone else's day.

On the vast majority of rides, on most days, fastrack does not adversely affect those people who do not wish to skip the queues.
 
I have explained pretty clearly why that is a completely different argument to the one I'm having. Please see my post in reply to Dave.
 
Who are these "poor" people going to alton towers? If you can afford to go alton towers I don't think you can be classed as "poor"!

I hate using the word "poor", for some reason I get images of Oliver whenever it's used :-D


Sent from my hand via the not so great iphone 5!
 
I work damn hard for my money and if I choose to spend it on a fast track because I don't want to spend my day standing behind a group of annoying sweary idiots (I always seem to find them!) then that is up to me. I am not 'wealthy' - I live in a flat above a shop in a not brilliant area of Birmingham. I hate this whole rich/poor argument, it's not a case of that, it's choosing what to spend your money on. I wonder how many people who moan about the cost of fast track are willing to spend £7 a day on a box of cigarettes? Whatever - their money their choice. And since when did being wealthy become a bad thing - something to be ashamed of? Ambition and aspirations are not crimes. Off topic I know, but the self righteousness of some people in this topic really irritates me!
 
I think the issue here is the way it's managed rather than the general ethics behind it.
Having a fast track system is fine. Selling fast track tickets in a queue line is not. Selling fast track tickets at ride entrances is not. This it purely a money making scheme.
I used a flash pass system this year at SFMM earlier this year. It was expensive but without it I probably would only have managed to ride half of the coasters there. It's a limited system, and doesn't seem to affect the queues at all, as its quite staggered.
I've used fast track in Merlin parks in the past, when I'm with non regular visitors, and it's busy. I don't think I have particularly bad morals, I just wanted to make sure they managed to ride everything on their one visit.
 
Dylan, I totally agree with you - and I know my post was off the original topic but hey, I felt the need for an early morning rant! ;)
 
Meat Pie said:
Dave - This isn't about premium products. It's about segregation and unequal treatment. Being able to buy a better viewing experience, or a better quality of something is a whole different question, an important question, but not the one I'm addressing.

Queuing is not a product, it is not a service, it is the process someone must wait to access a service. Whether you are buying Tesco value or Tesco finest, you are not given priority over the access to those products. In that sense we are at least treated as equals and not segregated and prioritised. The purchase of something cheap is still (in theory at least) as valued as the purchase of something comparatively expensive.

You seem to have ignored the examples that directly offer a service that involves queue jumping, here they are again with a few extra's

  • 1st Class Flight (all include queue jumping three times, once to check-in and offered a premium time to board the flight and usually first off the plane
  • M6 Toll, pay to get past Birmingham quicker than the rest
  • Premium banking, pay to get your phone call answered quicker
  • Healthcare, pay and get your diagnosis and treatment faster than those who don't
  • Department stores: pay a personal shopper, no queuing then

I prefer to point out how the system can be made fairer by not affecting those who do not buy it to such a large degree, Towers system at times is bad for this (Thorpes is worse). As for segregation i find that it doesn't so much segregate the rich from the poor (you see plenty of Rolex watches stood in the queues), it segregates those who are willing to buy the product from those who are not.

As many have pointed out financial status is probably not the biggest deciding factor when purchasing FT. I know from personal experience growing up in 80's and early 90's in a family where both parents worked but on low wages and the social support system was much tighter than today that if you are determined you will save for anything. Whether that is a sensible thing to save for is questionable but watching my parents scrimp and save to get us to Alton Towers once a year (we never had holidays, AT was where we went as we had family who live 15 minutes away who could usually procure us cheap tickets) made me realise what parents will do to treat their offspring.

Do i like the fact people have to break their backs to do something like that... No, and as said the social situation for gaining benefits is much better now (even with recent cuts) than it was in the days of Maggie T. But the point is the place is a business and Bizarrely when they don't offer FT its the very people you say are being segregated that complain that the service isn't available.

In the ideal world FT would be scrapped, it isn't going to be currently so i want to point out the issues that are making it worse that can be corrected for to even the balance just a little bit.

Meat Pie said:
Sigh... I will never understand how anyone can ethically justify any form of sold fast-track.

The reason people are defending this point isn't because you strive for an ideal, it's because in your first post you criticized the fact people even consider discussion of the system as it stands as though everyone are morally insensitive. I can disagree with FT as a concept but still discuss improving a poor system.

Meat Pie said:
Then again, I might just live in a poorer area than some people on here... ;)

You want to bet on that do you?
 
This thread seems to have derailed somewhat... Are we talking about the implementation of fasttrack, given that it exists, or the actual ethics of the existence of the system?
 
Islander said:
This thread seems to have derailed somewhat... Are we talking about the implementation of fasttrack, given that it exists, or the actual ethics of the existence of the system?

At the moment both, there is an interesting debate about the social morality of FT as a system and a debate about the implementation of FT at Alton Towers.

:)
 
First off:
Newbie to TS! So HI!

Secondly my thoughts for what its worth:
When you pay for entry to a theme park you pay for a day of escapism to a place that's all about fun. Everyone is treated fairly, the park should do its up-most to keep que's down (TUT TUT THORPE) Paying for the privilege to be bumped up in the que's takes away that fun and escapism for those who cant or wont as you have still paid entry.

Yes you can get in free (the sun etc) but AT choose to do this for marketing. So on the basis that most use the BOGOF vouchers you still paying £25 ish pp.

I would say its dangerous because you might as well call AT a pleasure park, pay per attraction. It cheapens the experience and that's why I always think while merlin keep turning the parks into cash cows people will still want to go abroad to places that really do take you to another world (true theme parks). AT was always a once a year thing for people now, but you could go abroad with the money its costs for 2-3 trips to AT with fast passes and have a better and longer experience!
 
I understand where MeatPie is coming from, and accept that nothing I am going to say will change his views, I however, respectfully disagree.

The problem with everyone being equal is how do you do that, I will never be very good at Art, so does that mean people who are good at Art, have to be limited in what they can create, so I am not judged to be worse than them?

That being said, as I have said previously, they way Alton Towers run's its Fast Track is wrong, damages the experience of other guests, and is greedy. The problem is, the general public are buying it, and appear to like it.

Assuming, the revenue from Fast Track is being used by the park to invest, maintain, and help the park develop, getting rid of it, would leave a gap in the parks budget, that would need to be raised from something else, or cutting costs somewhere.

Until the visitors of the park stopping buying fast track, or enough visitors of the park complain about the queues, nothing is going to change. Over the last 5 years, it has been seen as a quick way to generate extra revenue, and in an attempt to exceed previous yearly sales they have pushed it further and further.

Ian
 
Last year we bought fastrack Scream as a birthday treat and it was a bit rubbish to be honest - we still queued for over an hour for Oblivion. We did complain. This year we had complementary tickets and they worked pretty much perfectly. We used it a year to the day too so it is a direct comparison - ie last Friday of the school term, and first Friday of the Scottish school holidays. It does seem it was much better managed this year.
 
cinabar said:
Last year we bought fastrack Scream as a birthday treat and it was a bit rubbish to be honest - we still queued for over an hour for Oblivion. We did complain. This year we had complementary tickets and they worked pretty much perfectly. We used it a year to the day too so it is a direct comparison - ie last Friday of the school term, and first Friday of the Scottish school holidays. It does seem it was much better managed this year.

So far I would say Fastrack has worked much better this year, and i'm yet to see any giant fastrack queues, which happened quite regularly last season. It has probably helped that the cost has gone up on the packages and I think the amount they sell has been cut. Also more time slots are used on some rides.

The big test will be during scarefest/fireworks. Last year ALL hotel guests got fastrack for Oblivion and TH13TEEN (maybe something else as well?) because there was no ERT, and both of these rides had gigantic fastrack queues, infact Oblivions came to the entrance and TH13TEEN was said to be an hour long! If they sort that out this year, then it will be greatly improved.

You do have to be careful with fastrack, because if you just keep selling more and more and you don't monitor it, you end up with really long fastrack queues, and people who have paid to skip a queue wont be happy, and neither will the main queue, as they will move even slower than normal.
 
  • Dave said:
    • 1st Class Flight (all include queue jumping three times, once to check-in and offered a premium time to board the flight and usually first off the plane
    You still arrive and depart at the same time. The first class area does not arrive an hour before the rest of the plane (hopefully!)
    • M6 Toll, pay to get past Birmingham quicker than the rest
    Predominantly was developed for business and to bypass Birmingham.
    • Premium banking, pay to get your phone call answered quicker
    Don't agree with this really, but banks are generally an arse and I would personally refrain from using them in any social debate lol!
    • Healthcare, pay and get your diagnosis and treatment faster than those who don't
    Healthcare should never be a premium. This is the 21st C. No excuses for this, and only serves to enforce Meats assertions of how capitalist based societies destroy ethics/morals for profit
    • Department stores: pay a personal shopper, no queuing then
    Never seen one of those in Asda! ;)

None of these to me, bar for the last one, equate to anything that suggests choice that is ethical or direct comparisons. What some of those are more comparable to, is like having a separate ride that you can pay extra to go on. A premium attraction, not something that hampers every day enjoyment for others.

Now, I am not actually against Fast Track. For example, when there are people in your party who do not wish to do something else, and wish to wait for you to ride an attraction they don't like - grab an FT, do it quickly, then all go and join a queue together somewhere else. Special treats, etc etc - there is an undoubted time and a place for it. I quite like that option being available in a balanced, very well monitored, and controlled fashion.

However right now, despite the end of the scale Meat sits at here (which regardless of what anyone really thinks, is from an idealistic and fair fashioned sense of morals which I simply can't critique), he is right about how it is right now. It is segregating experience, it does have a big impact on other guests experience, Towers does feel like a pay-per-attraction place at times whilst having a hefty entrance fee, and the manner with which it is sold at entrances and even in queues is damn disgraceful.

I do, and will, use Fast Track at times. I would not want to have this choice removed either as it does provide convenience and flexibility into a day when sensibly managed - but across the whole Merlin chain, particularly Thorpe and to a lesser degree Alton, is OTT.
 
TheMan said:
None of these to me, bar for the last one, equate to anything that suggests choice that is ethical or direct comparisons. What some of those are more comparable to, is like having a separate ride that you can pay extra to go on. A premium attraction, not something that hampers every day enjoyment for others.

Where did I suggest in the post that I was creating a list to morally justify any of the things listed? I was pointing out similar situations as there was some suggestion that FT was a unique situation, it isn't.

All those examples including the airport (you ever seen a huge 1st class check in queue?) are ways you can pay to skip a wait to a service that ultimately everyone arrives at (the plane, the phone operator, not Birmingham ect).

I stated my moral preference about 4 or 5 times which is not to have FT, I was just pointing out the market (the consumer) bizarrely demand such options and theme parks are not going to lead a social revolution (well maybe the macks :) )
 
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