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[2025] Toxicator: New Forbidden Valley Suspended Top Spin

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Hyperia Super Stan said:
Universal is potentially on the horizon for Bedford, this means that Alton Towers has to keep pushing immersive world building/storytelling over stylistic boredom
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It doesn't mean that. There is a place for both. AT can offer well themed experiances that offer great coasters in themed environments. Whereas Universal generally takes you "into" the movies.

Even looking at Epic Universe the main central land is just stylised with a rollercoaster with a loose celestial theme, but other lands like Harry Potter are more immersive. You don't always need to immerse people in something or tell a deep story, sometimes it is enough just to be a thing. Whats the story or immersion of Space Mountain? Even Big Thunder doesn't tell much more of a story than being the wildest ride in the wilderness (Imagineers have since tried to add a backstory with a mine owner or something but it doesn't work).
 
jon81uk said:
It doesn't mean that. There is a place for both. AT can offer well themed experiances that offer great coasters in themed environments. Whereas Universal generally takes you "into" the movies.

Even looking at Epic Universe the main central land is just stylised with a rollercoaster with a loose celestial theme, but other lands like Harry Potter are more immersive. You don't always need to immerse people in something or tell a deep story, sometimes it is enough just to be a thing. Whats the story or immersion of Space Mountain? Even Big Thunder doesn't tell much more of a story than being the wildest ride in the wilderness (Imagineers have since tried to add a backstory with a mine owner or something but it doesn't work).
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Celestial Park is still beautifully landscape and will still provide world building. This is the point I made in my last post. Besides, themed areas that provide non-linear stories don't have in your face storytelling, there are small details for guests to read into if they so wish, take Thunder Mesa at Disneyland Paris as an example.
 
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Hyperia Super Stan said:
Celestial Park is still beautifully landscape and will still provide world building. This is the point I made in my last post. Besides, themed areas that provide non-linear stories don't have in your face storytelling, there are small details for guests to read into if they so wish, take Thunder Mesa at Disneyland Paris as an example.
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and Nemesis Reborn also has small details to read into if you wish.
 
jon81uk said:
and Nemesis Reborn also has small details to read into if you wish.
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It does, but the point is you don't have to read into them. It's not a dark ride like The Curse At Alton Manor, nor is it a rollercoaster in the same style as Hagrid's at IOA, there isn't a narrative throughline around the layout itself on Nemesis Reborn. But before I put Nemesis Reborn aside to get back on topic, it is the major e-ticket attraction in the updated Forbidden Valley, so any storytelling is a plus. We know from the plans for Project Ocean that the queue line is more compact and that it likely won't have major theming elements like the shipping container and the black turret. Any theming on Project Ocean looks to be the structure itself to create a sense of theatre similar to what something like Croc Drop or Talocan do, which would be fantastic to see more of in the UK.. it creates a far more amplified piece of spectatorship than a more stylized flat ride ever could, we should be asking for more of this.
 
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Tim said:
I think it's worth remembering that the concept of having Themed lands, in which every ride shares a common story, is still relatively new (outside of Disney).
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I would argue universal made the coherant land idea, disney tended to be a themed land, but the rides were seperate (e.g big thunder mountant and splash are themed to the same land but very differnt story and caracters) but universal with harry potter world has made it so the entire land is based on one story, an imersive land is quite new in big theme parks.
 
Hyperia Super Stan said:
It does, but the point is you don't have to read into them. It's not a dark ride like The Curse At Alton Manor, nor is it a rollercoaster in the same style as Hagrid's at IOA, there isn't a narrative throughline around the layout itself on Nemesis Reborn. But before I put Nemesis Reborn aside to get back on topic, it is the major e-ticket attraction in the updated Forbidden Valley, so any storytelling is a plus. We know from the plans for Project Ocean that the queue line is more compact and that it likely won't have major theming elements like the shipping container and the black turret. Any theming on Project Ocean looks to be the structure itself to create a sense of theatre similar to what something like Croc Drop or Talocan do, which would be fantastic to see more of in the UK.. it creates a far more amplified piece of spectatorship than a more stylized flat ride ever could, we should be asking for more of this.
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You were originally arguing they need to create a story and immersive world building more. Croc Drop and Talocan don’t really tell any more of a story or immerse you significantly more than Nemesis. In the grand scheme of a themed park, not everything has to tell a story and a giant saw or blade is enough.
 
I think the comparison to Universal and Harry Potter in particular are wrong.

If Alton were building, I dunno, Harry Potter land or Star Wars world I’d expect to see the immersive area that both Universal and Disney have built as they have a story to sell.

AT however haven’t done that. So if, in my eyes you build a well themed coaster and make everything else in the vicinity styled the same then that’s good enough for me.

Name another park other than the big two that actually build full on theme areas with flowing stories across attractions. I can’t think of one
 
Storytelling is what makes Alton Towers unique in the UK, like our answer to Efteling (in its own way). Basic ideas for rides like a random saw or blade don't provide a sense of wonder that a theme park should be striving for... it's mindboggling how people are desperate for more of that? There's nothing truly escapist about it.

Anywho, just come across an article from Blooloop on why Alton Towers will be delivering more storytdriven experiences. I fully agree with his points, it's important that Alton Towers moves with the times, providing greater escapism like all world class parks (and parks that aspire to be world class) should.
 
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Let's face it, even back in the peak years Tussaud's never had the money to theme anything near like what Disney or Universal could. I also don't expect that of them, or even Europa, Efteling, or Phantasialand standards. They've always strived for value for money with their themed areas and that's fine.

They wanted to build a new coaster in Fantasy World, the Thunder Looper had to go, so they got the old pirate ship, chucked some blades on it and moved it to Forbidden Valley. They wanted a Top Spin, so bought one and painted it up it to match the area and chucked some theming behind it. There was no rhyme or reason why either were there, even after the 'shrapnel' excuse. They just fit in and complimented the ride lineup.

They don't have the cash to explain things. Just make it look cool and coherent and that's it. Nobody really cares who the Daniel Craig Lookalike in the Oblivion queue line is supposed to be, or why an alien creatures tenticles have an uncanny resemblance to a Bolliger and Mabillard inverted coaster.

It's my personal opinion that all this trying to explain everything is just ruining the thematics. There was an averarching theme for Forbidden Valley before, but the coaster was designed first. The theme was made to fit the design. They wanted some Stonehenge style rocks because they were coming out of the pit anyway, so made up the old cult workshop site stuff. You had to wait in a pit, so no point wasting money on building it and doing nothing with it, whack some powder paint into some water and pretend it's blood. Build it into the ground to get it below to tree line and think of the excuse that it's a dormant monster that burst out.

Now they're trying to justify why no one has done something about the monster and put a cheap ass gun, a helicopter and a shipping container in to make it fit sub terra. The tail is wagging the dog. The theming has been made to fit the narrative, the narrative itself designed to excuse the theming. Just make it look cool and let people use their imagination.
 
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jibbsie said:
I would argue universal made the coherant land idea, disney tended to be a themed land, but the rides were seperate (e.g big thunder mountant and splash are themed to the same land but very differnt story and caracters) but universal with harry potter world has made it so the entire land is based on one story, an imersive land is quite new in big theme parks.
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Frontier Land at Disneyland Paris beat them to it by almost 2 decades.
Not knocking Universal for HP, they definitely kickstarted the recent trend.

But it's also not the only option. Europa Park have very well themed lands, but they don't try to explain why one ride is next to another, it just is.
Efteling make stunning themed rides, which all have that 'Efteling feel' even though most of them are unrelated.

It's very cool when two rides share a backstory, but sometimes just letting a good ride stand alone works too.
 
It's sad that it seem like nowadays most fans seem to value a rides lore and story more than the actual theming and ride experience itself nowadays.

I keep saying this, less is more. Show, don't tell. Tussauds excelled with that in the 90s and early 2000s, and guests were left to their imagination. There was something so special about that, and it seems that Merlin currently don't seem to value it that much. Oh well.
 
Trooper Looper said:
It's sad that it seem like nowadays most fans seem to value a rides lore and story more than the actual theming and ride experience itself nowadays.

I keep saying this, less is more. Show, don't tell. Tussauds excelled with that in the 90s and early 2000s, and guests were left to their imagination. There was something so special about that, and it seems that Merlin currently don't seem to value it that much. Oh well.
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Theming and lore go hand in hand, the theming is the "what" and the lore is the "why". If you want the experience to be heavily themed and story lead, which is what Forbidden Valley certainly is intended to be, then both are important. One without the other doesn't really make sense, theming without a story is just decoration.
The back story for the original was conveyed via the promotional video, and the comic. It wasn't immediately obvious to guests on park what the story was but was there for those that wanted to know it.
The continuing storyline has been conveyed via the videos and e-mails via the marketing campaign and #seekthetruth stuff during construction. Not everything to do with the story is immediately obvious just by looking at the theming on site, but there is a story behind it all, and is there to see for those that want to.
Not sure why this seems to be a problem for some people. It is a themed area in a theme park.
 
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Media demands and expectations change.

Background lore has become a massive staple of video games for example. FNAF wouldn't have had the longevity if it had remained a basic "lol look at the streamers" jump scare fest. The hidden drip drop lore pushed it and created a sub-genre of mascot horror.

It isn't always a positive. Look at the weird nonsense story they've given to Hyperia. It doesn't even really have a theme so why bother?

For a fully themed ride and area though? Little tidbits are cool, but my god do some people go overboard with them.
 
dazza4783 said:
Theming and lore go hand in hand, the theming is the "what" and the lore is the "why". If you want the experience to be heavily themed and story lead, which is what Forbidden Valley certainly is intended to be, then both are important. One without the other doesn't really make sense, theming without a story is just decoration.
The back story for the original was conveyed via the promotional video, and the comic. It wasn't immediately obvious to guests on park what the story was but was there for those that wanted to know it.
The continuing storyline has been conveyed via the videos and e-mails via the marketing campaign and #seekthetruth stuff during construction. Not everything to do with the story is immediately obvious just by looking at the theming on site, but there is a story behind it all, and is there to see for those that want to.
Not sure why this seems to be a problem for some people. It is a themed area in a theme park.
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The video was never shown to guests.

Fairly sure the comic was released in 1995 or 1996.
 
dazza4783 said:
The #seekthetruth videos also aren't shown to guests on park, they are promotional videos on youtube, facebook, twitter etc...


Yes it was, but it is still the backstory explaining the lore of the ride and area.
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The original video wasn’t used for promotion, it was an internal Tussauds video, it came into the public profile after the Nemesis X event.

The comic coming late suggests it was less about explaining anything, more that it’s a good story and had a recognised merch opportunity.
 
@Trooper Looper the problem is the social media computer game obsessed generations of today have no imagination so have to be told a story.

It’s the power of the internet gone mad. People now have to be told what to think. Only a selective few have avoided this brain washing and form their own options.

Heck if certain vloggers decided Heave Ho was the best character ride on park I can guarantee people here would mirror that opinion.

Thankfully on the whole this community seems to have members who can form their own opinions. Other similar named forums though………. Well.
 
I think the point isn't that stories are bad, it's when the primary focus moves to that over the quality of the product itself. They either need to go full on and cover every angle or leave enough wriggle room in themes vagueness. The attraction itself and immersion should be the primary focus, not trying to fit it around a strict narrative. If you can do both, then it's a bonus.

Wickerman tells a story, even spoon feeds it to you. But it's little more than "we're a weirdo cult, we're going to sacrifice you to a big structure we worship, here's some fire, here's a woodie to ride". I have no idea what the runes mean (even though I know some kind of translation exists somewhere), or why there's a human head on one side and a goats head on the other, that's mostly left to the guests imagination. It's just cool looking. I'm sure the choice of manufacturer, type of coaster, layout, desire for a pre-show, and a central photogenic theming structure took priority over the intricacies of excusing why it all exists.

Now imagine if they tried to think of some sort of excuse for more of it than they eventually did and plastered 2d leak signs everywhere like they with Enterprise trying to explain it all? For me, Wickerman looks fine in Mutiny bay as it doesn't really clash with the rest of the area even though it has a different "theme" and 'story".

What if they then tried to excuse why both exist next to eachother? Your focus moves onto that. "Oh the leader of the sacrifice cult is married to a pirate's cousin. They went to University together where they got drunk on rum and played walk-the-burning-plank for a laugh."

Del and Rodney loosing all their money after walking into the sunset and moving back in to the exact same flat was lame. Jigsaw dying in Saw 3 and miraculously finding a load of people with the same weird particular mentality and engineering skills as him and having the fosight to bury cassette tapes in bodies to be heard by the exact right moment by the exact right people was a lame excuse to carry on churning out movies. The excuse to bring the Joker back in Arkham Knight. The frequent mechanisms used to explain why there's 2 Sonics in a lot of games now. Rita being an abandoned race track in a forest that aids your escape. The rubbish attempts to link the Smiler with the rest of X Sector.

Just seems all a bit Dallas dream plot line to me. Or finding your wife in bed with another man "I promise I can explain". Make the new Forbidden Valley flat look like it fits in, theme it to look cool and let the enjoyment of the ride and theming quality speak for itself. There doesn't have to be a reason why some army have enlisted a Huss flat ride to aid them, all spoon fed with signage, audio announcements and app literature. As long as it's good and looks the part, that should be the priority in my opinion. If geeks want some sort of explanation, then make a few extra quid flogging them another comic or something.
 
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