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[2025] Toxicator: New Forbidden Valley Suspended Top Spin

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Now I not been to Alton Towers this season (going on the 27th October) but after going to Thorpe park last Saturday I liked the option of joining a queue for a coaster which ranged from 45 mins to up 100 mins or 1 of the flat rides which ranged from 15-30 mins.
Now I not got many options at Alton with only the Blade and Flavio‘s fabulous fandango to choose if the coasters have all 1 hr+ queues.
 
Matt.GC said:
As they're all previously developed and part of the GDO, it wouldn't take much at all to whack these flats in. Other than ££££ of course, but if we are to believe that there's a 3 flat deal (which if there is, we don't know how the contract is structured), the purchase of at least 2 of the rides at least has been accounted for.

So even Capital Expenditure could potentially be only a minor hinderance, with logistics and OPEX being other issues, with this whole marketing angle that @BarryZola mentioned being another. It wouldn't take much ground work in Dark Forest, and a queue could be constructed pretty quickly. Even less work to do in X Sector as you have 2 plots already designed for flats that wouldn't need extensive modification (depending on what they intend to put there). Then there's a bit of theming should they choose to add it.

I don't think we'll get all 3 next year. I think Ocean will be seen as the big marketing draw, and if Hex reopens we'll be expected to be grateful. This will be a choice. Either because they won't fund the final outlay, won't operationally be able to cope, or plan to phase them in and market the hell out of them. But there's nothing concrete stopping them other than their own will really to get them in and open next year. No messy and lengthy planning consents or anything like that.
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Whilst this is all true in regards to planning, I just can’t see them adding in two random flats during the closed season.

I know the 3 flat rumour is popular here, but with the amount of money they’ve thrown at the Valley this year they’re going to want ocean to take front and centre of all the attention.

Let the valley have all the attention this year and next year…2026 two new flats and then perhaps Horizon in 27’
 
I think if we only see a flat in Forbidden Valley next year, instead of multiple flat rides. It’s fair to question whether this over-engineering (and likely high cost) for the sake of one flat ride is worth it. They could have easily placed a new top spin on the existing site with minimal work. Ripsaw, Submission, Enterprise… all flat rides with theming but not ‘heavily’ themed, that would suit just fine in 2025.

Time will tell, and none of us can judge until it is revealed exactly what is coming in 2025 and what Project Ocean entails.

My only concern is a potential lack of theming (hopefully they have the money). Will this become the new Air tunnel? Bare ugly concrete left on show? Can't wait for moaning about something else. 🥰
 
Matt.GC said:
Great. I can't wait and I'm sure it'll be fantastic. But it doesn't change the fact that it increases the roster in Forbidden Valley to 5 attractions, whilst X Sector sits on just 2, Spinball was purposely shut mid-season for some nice to do work, Hex closed for ages, Skyride shut for ages, Monorail hardly functioning, a coaster or 2 going down is day ruining for guests, and that after dusk at Scarefest you could potentially walk between Wickerman and Gallopers without seeing a single open queue line for an included attraction.

It doesn't need these rides in a few years time, it needs them yesterday! The parks bread and butter isn't Thoosies who live down the road brandishing cheap passes. After negotiating their way down to the bottom of X Sector to find Oblivion has closed temporarily, the Smiler on 120 mins, and food vans sat where rides used to be, casual visitors don't care about speculation surrounding potential sunlit uplands they may or may not arise in the distant future being discussed in the corner of a Thoosie forum. They care about their experience now.

Among the contributing factors, who's fault it is, who did what and when, how many techs and mechs are on the payroll, whether it rained or not, how good or not Alton Manor is, whether Ocean will be awesome or not etc, is not what I'm saying. I'm just stating that for the most part, there simply hasn't been enough attractions for guests to ride this season. And this needs fixing and they shouldn't wait unnecessarily to do this.

Phantasialand is in a completely quality league to Towers. Those days are long gone.


Yes. In the era of better than nothing, we currently have nothing in some sections of the park. So some lighter themed flats than we'd all want to see, even if they were less so than what came before them, is better than flat paving, abandoned queue lines, food vans, and upcharge attractions. So it would be striving for better, some new permanent rides or another season like this one. As garish and tacky as they were, they should never have pulled the shutters up this season without those fun fair flats until they'd replaced them all.
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I don’t disagree with you mate, I just have a slightly softer view on it.

You’re right, the park does need those attractions yesterday (I’ve made the same point myself) but it isn’t getting them yesterday; so the next best thing is them getting them in a few years.

The reality is Hex is clearly opening soon (the park have teased it today), hopefully the Sky Ride will follow.

I do genuinely admire your enthusiasm with it and I know it’s coming from the right place I just take a slightly more optimistic position with it, perhaps I’ll be proven wrong though.
 
Josh555 said:
I don’t disagree with you mate, I just have a slightly softer view on it.

You’re right, the park does need those attractions yesterday (I’ve made the same point myself) but it isn’t getting them yesterday; so the next best thing is them getting them in a few years.

The reality is Hex is clearly opening soon (the park have teased it today), hopefully the Sky Ride will follow.

I do genuinely admire your enthusiasm with it and I know it’s coming from the right place I just take a slightly more optimistic position with it, perhaps I’ll be proven wrong though.
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That's fine. There's no problem at all with you expressing your opinion, in fact I'd encourage it, so I wouldn't worry.

AltonLover123 said:
Whilst this is all true in regards to planning, I just can’t see them adding in two random flats during the closed season.

I know the 3 flat rumour is popular here, but with the amount of money they’ve thrown at the Valley this year they’re going to want ocean to take front and centre of all the attention.

Let the valley have all the attention this year and next year…2026 two new flats and then perhaps Horizon in 27’
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It's not confirmed that they've signed on the dotted line of any deal. And if they have, we don't know the terms. I agree I can't see them doing this either. But the reasons for this, of which you have expressed, are absolutely the wrong ones.

Yes, they're going to want to flog the hell out of their expensive new addition. And so they should. But dragging guests into another season of X Sector being as bare as it's ever been, is not at all good for guests, or the long-term future of the park. And even if they do drag this out for another few years (which they almost undoubtedly will), something else will break, need renovating, or need removing by that time.

One flash new flat and a 'complete' area doesn't make a good overall park. It just makes Forbidden Valley a bit better. The park desperately needs capacity, and to make a statement of intent that they care about guest experience. This season has been a shambolic embarrassment, and it needs fixing fast. If it turns out they could just stretch a little further in which to partially achieve this, then that's what they should do rather than wait for marketing bragging rights. Letting the marketing tail wag the dog is the Merlin of old isn't it?

Also notice how the debate of the last page or so has centred around the theory that delivering quality and quantity are mutually exclusive. There's a big expensive concrete base being built for Ocean, but let's not pretend this is absolute assurance that'll be some sort of Talcon beater. It could end up being a gloss black off-the-shelf Topspin sat on a dull grey brutalist plinth due to last minute budget cuts for all we know. Yet it'll still be significantly better than what came before it, which was nothing.

This is the same company that persistently relies on shipping containers for theming, the last of which they installed right next door in the queue line for the reimagining of their arguably best attraction, and also commissioned a coaster down in Surrey that was so good, they could only afford to build half of it and locked it behind a boring fence so that you couldn't see the muddy crap pile they left it with.

I never liked the look of Enterprise much, but it was better than nothing and at least had themed signage. They did very little to Submission, but it kind of acted like a moving theming piece in itself. Twirling toadstool wasn't groundbreaking, but it did kind of look like a toadstool. Ripsaw was the heaviest themed, but even that was only a metal bridge, a water fountain, a wall, and a truck. All of these examples are better than what we currently have, which is a travelling Sizzler, some caravans, or nothing at all.
 
Matt.GC said:
Great. I can't wait and I'm sure it'll be fantastic. But it doesn't change the fact that it increases the roster in Forbidden Valley to 5 attractions, whilst X Sector sits on just 2, Spinball was purposely shut mid-season for some nice to do work, Hex closed for ages, Skyride shut for ages, Monorail hardly functioning, a coaster or 2 going down is day ruining for guests, and that after dusk at Scarefest you could potentially walk between Wickerman and Gallopers without seeing a single open queue line for an included attraction.
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whilst I do agree with the park needing more flat ride, I actually think placing the first in forbidden valley isn't a bad idea as when I go it feels like a lot of people in the park are reluctant to go down to forbidden valley that often, I have seen queues with wicker man and the smiler at 60 but nemesis and Galactica at 10-30, which I know the capacity is different but the difference is often quite a significant amount, especially near the start or end of the day

I think it is mainly down to people not wanting to make the 20-30 min walk away from most the other rides that often (I often see people only do it once a trip) (it is a long walk, and the area often feels less busy than the rest of the park)

if project ocean is able to keep people down in FV or encourage people to head down more it could help improve the queues in the rest of the park as nemesis and Galactica are there with there enormous capacity, this would be further helped by the reopening of the sky ride

Also I have only rarely seen the monorail broken down, it just doesn't have that good ops, mainly caused by having to keep people off the platform until the train stops meaning it takes ages to fill all the cabins (it took 5 mins last time I took it!)
 
Chesington new concept plans for Wild Asia do not show use of there 2 existing flat rides, so there is potential the monkey swinger could go to dark forest opening later on in next year season? This would be fairly cheap to do in a low capex year, along side finishing off Forbidden valley with Galatia retheme and flat there.

As for X sector I feel how the food trucks are laid out and fit in quite well there I can’t see that space having a flat for some time, which I actually don’t mind but maybe the existing enterprise site in time?

It wouldn’t surprise me if the “3 flat ride deal” has now been spread out between the other Merlin Parks and in particular Thorpe and Chessington? Just like project Horizon has been scaled back and potentially the better ride system has gone to Chesington. I feel the same could happen here whilst Altonfocuses om spreading there capex further, especially during a time of staff and budget cuts?

hopefully next year funding wont be sucked dry from the Sky ride, Hex, Wicker man fire, installing single rider ques and staff canopies, multiple rides including Spin ball, curse and
hex this year have had expensive updated control panels installed. We also had nemeses and nearly a complete new area retheme and new buildings. I feel it doesn't look as obvious on the outside but internally it's been a big year and I'm hoping next year will be a lot smoother ride for Bianca and the park in general.
 
Lots of ups and downs along the road but I do feel we have seen general improvement this year.

Damn long way to go though
 
Benzin said:
Why is it always suggested that Merlin just reuse unwanted/buggered rides from other parks in the portfolio?

Merlin have more than enough to actually buy these things brand new but choose the cheap option.
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Wasn't it once stated that Towers [in recent times] never buy second hand rides from anywhere?
 
Steve74 said:
Wasn't it once stated that Towers [in recent times] never buy second hand rides from anywhere?
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If they have said that, I think it would very much need to be a 'going forward' statement, considering their recent additions have included two second-hand attractions* and six rented fairground rides.

In fact, if we look at the last 10 years, Alton Towers has only had 3 completely new rides, alongside two second-hand attractions, six rethemes and six short-term rented rides. And however you want to classify Nemesis Reborn, which in the above line-up probably technically classes as one of the 'newest' of the additions.

*One of which was Gangsta Granny, which operated for the first time at Alton Towers, but the ride system was designed and built for another attraction.
 
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Squiggs said:
If they have said that, I think it would very much need to be a 'going forward' statement, considering their recent additions have included two second-hand attractions* and six rented fairground rides.

In fact, if we look at the last 10 years, Alton Towers has only had 3 completely new rides, alongside two second-hand attractions, six rethemes and six short-term rented rides. And however you want to classify Nemesis Reborn, which in the above line-up probably technically classes as one of the 'newest' of the additions.

*One of which was Gangsta Granny, which operated for the first time at Alton Towers, but the ride system was designed and built for another attraction.
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What recent attractions are second-hand? And weren't some of the retrosquad rides - even though rented - brand new?
 
Steve74 said:
What recent attractions are second-hand? And weren't some of the retrosquad rides - even though rented - brand new?
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That is a good point, one of the Funk 'n' Flys (the first one) was supposed to have been new (or at least had not previously operated) when it arrived at Alton Towers, and possibly Roller Disco. I think the second Funk 'n' Fly was the same age, but had operated on the fair circuit during the 2021 season. The other Retro Squad rides were all around 5 years old (give or take).

Peter Rabbit Hippity Hop came from one of the Merlin's aquariums in Germany and reportedly Gangsta Granny's ride system was designed and built for one of Merlin's midway attractions for a project that was scrapped before the ride system repurposed for GG.
 
All looks great but they do need to get some better contractors, compared to many other construction projects I follow around the world they’re insanely slow. This is all my opinion and I can be of course wrong so feel free to challenge my mindset. But I feel this could potentially be deliberate, like many companies I’ve had first hand experience in construction where they deliberately drag out their jobs, add more remedial works to make more money from a bigger corporation as no one questions it not being closely monitored?

I’m not sure if it’s the same construction company but nemeses and forbidden valley went well over there allocated timeframe, it wasn’t even finished for opening day and they started well in advance before last year closing season? I believe it also went completely went over budget and still elements like the water falls and galactic are incomplete. I understand problems arise and weather comes into this but other bigger projects I’ve followed have been completely far more efficiently regardless of the climate. So I’m sorry foundations for a flat ride I don’t believe should take this long and I feel Merlin should look more into this if they’re going to be so tight on their budgets.

Oh and the new scare maze wasn’t completed
On time either it just storage containers and they started construction way in advance again?

I cannot wait for the sky ride works to be completely as that would be sucking so much money out of there capex.
 
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TBoy535 said:
All looks great but they do need to get some better contractors, compared to many other construction projects I follow around the world they’re insanely slow. This is all my opinion and I can be of course wrong so feel free to challenge my mindset. But I feel this could potentially be deliberate, like many companies I’ve had first hand experience in construction where they deliberately drag out their jobs, add more remedial works to make more money from a bigger corporation as no one questions it not being closely monitored?

I’m not sure if it’s the same construction company but nemeses and forbidden valley went well over there allocated timeframe, it wasn’t even finished for opening day and they started well in advance before last year closing season? I believe it also went completely went over budget and still elements like the water falls and galactic are incomplete. I understand problems arise and weather comes into this but other bigger projects I’ve followed have been completely far more efficiently regardless of the climate. So I’m sorry foundations for a flat ride I don’t believe should take this long and I feel Merlin should look more into this if they’re going to be so tight on their budgets.

I cannot wait for the sky ride works to be completely as that would be sucking so much money out of there capex.
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But would this be a construction company issue or a Merlin being Merlin issue? They have become known for rides opening without the areas looking finished and for us to be wondering if a ride will be ready in time. Maybe it’s a case that you get the service that you pay or budget for.
 
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Assuming they're aiming for a March opening, that still leaves 5/6 months worth of working time. Without knowing the agreed timescale between Towers & contractors it is all pure guesswork that the project is behind schedule or not.

Most worksites aren't in the middle of a visitor attraction either. That in it itself adds an extra layer of adaptability required since working hours will clash with opening hours (for most part). And given the position in one of the more popular areas you can't just close it off for a few days.

Get the structure finished by season end ready for the ride part to go up is my guess for the plan. Far easier to transport giant ride parts when no one is in the way.
 
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