[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

[Benzin]

Horizon shouldn't be a coaster but a "pure" dark ride for the whole family.

Convert Dungeons into a water coaster if they're THAT desperate to have a coaster. But adding yet another coaster to the line up isn't the best solution.

 

[Visma]

The park now has several large coasters, in a wide line up.
What the park really needs is a sharp focus on current standards of atmosphere, operations and maintenance, in my humble opinion, and a few bits of filler to mop up the queues.
Not another headline attraction, it has several of those already, lets get the park back up to scratch before additional big rides.

While I agree AT has a pretty stellar coaster line up, they also have the issue of what to do with the older offerings.

Oblivion is now 31 years old and counting, Galactica 25 and counting. They do have the B&M longevity and still ride really well whereas I don’t think the same can be said of Rita and The Smiler. I personally find Rita and The Smiler quite rough, it will be interesting to see what upkeep will be done to them in the coming years and how much that will cost. They need new coaster investments to be around for when older ones leave. There is also so much coaster hardware out there that would be unique to the UK (RMC, Axis, Mack spinner etc).

I do think Towers are facing the threat of European parks too. If you’ve done all there is to offer at towers multiple times, Europa, Plopsa or Phantasialand might appeal more and flights there are cheap.

Offering ‘Nostalgia’ is risky as the GP might not consider it a new offering i.e. Nemesis to Reborn, Ripsaw to Toxicator. What made Towers so successful in the 90s and 00s was uniqueness on a UK, and often global scale. Gimmicky ‘world’s firsts’? Perhaps, but they did do the job of creating marketable hype and driving attendance.

I agree that an indoor coaster would be a great investment for them. It has appeal for the whole family, the hardware can be small scale but pack a punch. A great theme and marketing could really boost hype for the park again.

 

[Benjsh]

While I agree AT has a pretty stellar coaster line up, they also have the issue of what to do with the older offerings.

Oblivion is now 31 years old and counting, Galactica 25 and counting. They do have the B&M longevity and still ride really well whereas I don’t think the same can be said of Rita and The Smiler. I personally find Rita and The Smiler quite rough, it will be interesting to see what upkeep will be done to them in the coming years and how much that will cost. They need new coaster investments to be around for when older ones leave. There is also so much coaster hardware out there that would be unique to the UK (RMC, Axis, Mack spinner etc).

I do think Towers are facing the threat of European parks too. If you’ve done all there is to offer at towers multiple times, Europa, Plopsa or Phantasialand might appeal more and flights there are cheap.

Offering ‘Nostalgia’ is risky as the GP might not consider it a new offering i.e. Nemesis to Reborn, Ripsaw to Toxicator. What made Towers so successful in the 90s and 00s was uniqueness on a UK, and often global scale. Gimmicky ‘world’s firsts’? Perhaps, but they did do the job of creating marketable hype and driving attendance.

I agree that an indoor coaster would be a great investment for them. It has appeal for the whole family, the hardware can be small scale but pack a punch. A great theme and marketing could really boost hype for the park again.

I do think this only applies to us nerds though. Families who aren't enthusiasts probably won't even know these places exist and their foreign theme parks trips are probably exclusive to Florida, Disneyland Paris and at a push Port Aventura.

None of my friends my age know about Liseberg, Europa or Phantasialand.

 

[jon81uk]

Horizon shouldn't be a coaster but a "pure" dark ride for the whole family.

Convert Dungeons into a water coaster if they're THAT desperate to have a coaster. But adding yet another coaster to the line up isn't the best solution.

Why not keep the dark ride building as a dark ride? The Dungeons has a slow moving dark ride in it, just get it back in use as one, same as it was for Charlie and Toyland. I don't think a coaster would fit in that building anyway.

An indoor coaster is a much better ride type than a water coaster so Horizon should be the indoor coaster.

Don't forget there has been a new dark ride in the last five years already (and a refurbished one), so getting Charlie/Toyland/Dungeons back as one would leave the park with a reasonable amount, even if they could always add more.

 

[Matt N]

I agree with @jon81uk. If Alton reopens the Dungeons building as a free family dark ride, that takes the park to 5 dark rides, which I feel is an ample number. The park never had any more than that even in the Tussauds years, and outside of Disney and Universal, very few parks have more than 5 dark rides.

With a building that big, I think they’d be mad not to go with a major indoor coaster for Horizon. It may well be the best they’ll ever be able to build on that site, and also one of few flat plots on park that’s ideal for housing a big indoor coaster.

 

[jon81uk]

If Alton reopens the Dungeons building as a free family dark ride, that takes the park to 5 dark rides,

Whats the fifth? Curse, Hex, Gangasta Granny, Toyland/Charlie/Dungeons and ?

I don't think Sub-Terra counts as dark ride, its a drop tower indoors. Same as I wouldn't count indoor coaster as dark ride, its an indoor coaster.

 

[Matt N]

Whats the fifth? Curse, Hex, Gangasta Granny, Toyland/Charlie/Dungeons and ?

I don't think Sub-Terra counts as dark ride, its a drop tower indoors. Same as I wouldn't count indoor coaster as dark ride, its an indoor coaster.

I was counting Sub-Terra. It’s still an immersion-led indoor attraction that happens to end with a small drop tower; I’d argue it’s not really any different to Hex in that sense.

I can see the argument for Sub-Terra not being a dark ride, but in this case, I was counting it as one for argument’s sake. It’s an immersive indoor ride all the same, which arguably fills the same sort of gap as a dark ride, and depending on the nature of the ride, an indoor coaster could be similar.

Even still, I think 4 dark rides is an ample number. The park has never had any more than this in the past, and outside of Disney and Universal, more than 4 is quite rare.

 

[Bowser]

I disagree with some of the posts here. I think Horizon needs to come soon, preferably within the next few years (by 2028, in my view).

As much as people talk about there being bigger priorities, it’s been some time now since Alton’s last new major attraction (Wicker Man in 2018 was already 7 years ago). While the park has invested a fair amount in recent years, a lot of it has been into refurbishments rather than meaningfully new attractions. Things like Curse and Nemesis Reborn, to the casual visitor, are just old hits painted a new colour, and even with Toxicator, people have been talking about how “it’s just Ripsaw painted a different colour” despite it being a brand new ride. In terms of the time since the park has had a big, new statement ride, the last one was Wicker Man. I’m not saying a big, new statement ride even has to be a big thrill coaster; something like a major new dark ride or substantial water ride would fill the void as well.

People might talk about how “it’s the little things that matter” and how “the wider experience” needs investing in, but I feel that the time since the last major attraction is a concern if one isn’t installed soon. As much as the refurbishments are positive and necessary, there’s only so long that the public will keep visiting for without anything meaningfully new and different in terms of major attractions being installed.

As much as you can cite the strength of the experience “back in the day”, the crux of the matter is that people were pulled to the park by the multiple statement ride installations during the 80s and 90s, in my view. The Haunted House, Nemesis, Oblivion, Congo River Rapids… there was regular investment into these statement attractions.

Without that regular investment, I fear that Alton might tip into the sort of rut that Thorpe Park found itself in pre-Hyperia, where the park’s lineup arguably began to feel a bit stale to the casual visitor and the place felt a bit directionless. People on here might dismiss headliners, but I think they are needed regularly to keep a park on the straight and narrow. Without new headline rides, people will grow bored of the existing lineup and go “why should I go back to Alton Towers when nothing’s changed for years?”.

As @James said, I also feel that Horizon itself will fill gaps in the lineup. It’s indoors, which is different and helps to weather proof the park further, and I also think it’s quite likely to have a 1.2m height restriction at most, which should help to bolster the heavily squeezed “too big for CBeebies, but under 1.4m” demographic.

Agree with this. In the end nothing draws people to a theme park like the shiny new toy and as you say, those peak years are associated with regular investment on that front.

Generally i think theme parks succeed on two fronts. One is a high level of quality. We see this at parks like Disneyland Paris and Efteling, where they don't require big new attractions as regularly because they have a deserved reputation of a great experience. Everything works, everything looks nice, people have a good time. Unfortunately Alton Towers aren't delivering on this front.

The other is the regular addition of new attractions. Parks add something of note every couple of years to keep people coming back for the new experience. Alton Towers are only partially delivering on this as really they're recycling existing attractions.... Hex, The Curse, Nemesis, Ripsaw, Sub Terra. Not that they shouldn't be doing those things but it's not enough if you're to be an international level theme park.

 

[jon81uk]

Even still, I think 4 dark rides is an ample number. The park has never had any more than this in the past, and outside of Disney and Universal, more than 4 is quite rare.

Yep and what is probably mainly needed at AT is other indoor stuff, shows (3D/4D or live) plus maybe an additional walk-through or play type attraction that isn’t CBeebies (fun house, exhibitions, etc). There is Sea Life right now of course.


To add, this is also an issue at Thorpe Park, which massively suffers from not having anything that isn’t rides. The dodgems are good as they are a non-thrill option. But the park needs something to do that isn’t a ride or arcade. Can’t even just look at themed areas like Phantasialand or Universal.

 

[Benjsh]

The days of UK parks trying to run 30+ rides all at once are slowly coming to an end I think. It's just so expensive to run all these attractions and maintain them all too and i think it's a big reason as to why the industry over here is on it's knees. Wages are increasing every April as well as NI contributions, ride parts are becoming more expensive and all at the same time where they are trying to keep the entry prices to the parks themselves affordable to attract more guests.

Just look at Universal Studios. Granted they operate on a whole other playing field with a much bigger budget but they typically open their new parks with about 9/10 rides in total plus a couple of shows and other experiences. They very much adopt the quality over quantity method.

Now I get that Merlin can't open £100m dark rides and coasters like Universal can but I do think they could be far more sensible with what they do choose to run. You don't need a park with 30/40 rides to have a good day out. Afterall even the simplest of kiddie flat rides in CBeebies Land has to be staffed and maintained all year not to mention the electricity costs.

In order to survive the next few decades I think we will see major changes at all UK parks, not just Towers, over the coming years.

 

[Squiggs]

Oblivion is now 31 years old and counting, Galactica 25 and counting.

By the by, you've added some years on there.

Oblivion is 27 years and Galactica is 23.

Still not young by any means, but neither of them are particularly showing age. Neither of them seems to have notably more downtime than the newer machines.

 

[Benjsh]

By the by, you've added some years on there.

Oblivion is 27 years and Galactica is 23.

Still not young by any means, but neither of them are particularly showing age. Neither of them seems to have notably more downtime than the newer machines.

Yeah i think they've both got plenty life in them as yet.

Oblivion in particular won't be massively expensive to upgrade/replace either. Because it's an incredibly short ride there are very few spots which suffer from massive wear and tear. You could easily leave the lift hill section right up to the drop and also the break run in place for another 20 years I'd imagine only having to replace the odd minor part. I'd be amazed if they took it down as they'd never get planning permission for something that big again.

 

[jon81uk]

The days of UK parks trying to run 30+ rides all at once are slowly coming to an end I think. It's just so expensive to run all these attractions and maintain them all too and i think it's a big reason as to why the industry over here is on it's knees. Wages are increasing every April as well as NI contributions, ride parts are becoming more expensive and all at the same time where they are trying to keep the entry prices to the parks themselves affordable to attract more guests.

Just look at Universal Studios. Granted they operate on a whole other playing field with a much bigger budget but they typically open their new parks with about 9/10 rides in total plus a couple of shows and other experiences. They very much adopt the quality over quantity method.

Now I get that Merlin can't open £100m dark rides and coasters like Universal can but I do think they could be far more sensible with what they do choose to run. You don't need a park with 30/40 rides to have a good day out. Afterall even the simplest of kiddie flat rides in CBeebies Land has to be staffed and maintained all year not to mention the electricity costs.

In order to survive the next few decades I think we will see major changes at all UK parks, not just Towers, over the coming years.

The difference with Universal/Disney (and Phantasialand/Europa to a smaller extent) is there are things to do/see that aren't rides. Diagon Alley at Universal only has 1.5 rides (Gringotts and Hogwarts Express) but you can visit the shops and the themed alleyways, get butterbeer ice cream, watch a small show, see the dragon breathe fire and generally take it all in. The shift in the Florida parks away from rides/shows to themed environments is accompanied by well-realised themed environments (Diagon Alley, Star Wars Galaxy's Edge, most of Animal Kingdom, parts of Islands of Adventure). I think 25-30 years ago even Disney & Universal didn't really do the themed environment stuff to a huge extent.

Whereas what is in World of Jumanji that isn't a ride?

Maybe Merlin will consider the wider environment with Minecraft? Wild Asia was actually one of the better lands anyway as you had an animal exhibit and some reasonable theming around to look at (like the overly full rucksack photo op).

 

[Bowser]

The difference with Universal/Disney (and Phantasialand/Europa to a smaller extent) is there are things to do/see that aren't rides. Diagon Alley at Universal only has 1.5 rides (Gringotts and Hogwarts Express) but you can visit the shops and the themed alleyways, get butterbeer ice cream, watch a small show, see the dragon breathe fire and generally take it all in. The shift in the Florida parks away from rides/shows to themed environments is accompanied by well-realised themed environments (Diagon Alley, Star Wars Galaxy's Edge, most of Animal Kingdom, parts of Islands of Adventure). I think 25-30 years ago even Disney & Universal didn't really do the themed environment stuff to a huge extent.

Whereas what is in World of Jumanji that isn't a ride?

Maybe Merlin will consider the wider environment with Minecraft? Wild Asia was actually one of the better lands anyway as you had an animal exhibit and some reasonable theming around to look at (like the overly full rucksack photo op).

Nintendo World at Universal is the pinnacle of this imo. We literally spent several hours playing all the free mini-games and looking round in awe (not to mention the secret ride), a notion that would be almost inconceivable at most other theme parks.

Minecraft is the perfect opportunity to create something like that. Admittedly it's much trickier with an original IP but not impossible. Look at the Fairytale Forest at Efteling, that's virtually a day out in itself ( I appreciate there are IP links there). Even Forbidden Valley is a great originally themed area that people at least enjoy being in, even if it is predominantly about the rides (and Toxicator is a great boost for spectators) so it can be done....

 

[Benzin]

Out of the current dark rides how many are actually suitable for young families?

That's the problem. Can't sensibly take a 2/3 year old on Hex/Alty Mans.

They also need to replace Flume before another coaster too. Hence my thought of a water coaster which could do all 3 things.

 

[Ash]

If, and it’s a big if, this is 2027 addition, I’d fully expect to see this start site establishment etc this year. With a 78 week construction time. Although if it was 2028 this would tie in with the general rule of 4 years between major capex.

With what looks like duct survey marking already in place. Maybe Magna Projects is moving over already to have a look?

A large concrete slab and a large industrial building is well within their existing capabilities. And being local contractors may be of benefit as well.

And rumour has it they may be venturing out into even more leisure associated industries…given the recent Merlin redundancies.

I think at this point Alton need to walk and chew gum. Meaning improving capacity, operations, maintenance, effects, events, infrastructure AND install new rides.

I just worry given its set back location it could be an IP in a box, and not revitalise the entire TWODW area, which seems a huge missed opportunity.

In an ideal world it’s a homegrown IP (Talbot experiment steampunk Black Hole) that would allow a tie in at a later date waiting for the DW license to run out. In a less than ideal world it’s something like a Sony tie in IP in a box, The Last Of Us (see Uncharted/the walking dead) or something similar. Because the marketers think people won’t go in without an IP (see Efteling, DLP etc)

I still think a similar ride system to Minecraft makes sense, or same manufacturer. A multi circuit Intamin could be great. European first and maybe with some unique trick track. Just to squeeze the most out the space and offer re-rideability.

It will be the first big test of the MMM vision for me, hopefully less self referential (less signs) and more emphasis on story telling and place making. I’m not sure anyone can stomach any more pseudo industrial themes anymore (Swarm, Saw, Nemesis Reborn, Walking Dead, Toxciator, Smiler)

 

[Benjsh]

If, and it’s a big if, this is 2027 addition, I’d fully expect to see this start site establishment etc this year. With a 78 week construction time. Although if it was 2028 this would tie in with the general rule of 4 years between major capex.

With what looks like duct survey marking already in place. Maybe Magna Projects is moving over already to have a look?

A large concrete slab and a large industrial building is well within their existing capabilities. And being local contractors may be of benefit as well.

And rumour has it they may be venturing out into even more leisure associated industries…given the recent Merlin redundancies.

I think at this point Alton need to walk and chew gum. Meaning improving capacity, operations, maintenance, effects, events, infrastructure AND install new rides.

I just worry given its set back location it could be an IP in a box, and not revitalise the entire TWODW area, which seems a huge missed opportunity.

In an ideal world it’s a homegrown IP (Talbot experiment steampunk Black Hole) that would allow a tie in at a later date waiting for the DW license to run out. In a less than ideal world it’s something like a Sony tie in IP in a box, The Last Of Us (see Uncharted/the walking dead) or something similar. Because the marketers think people won’t go in without an IP (see Efteling, DLP etc)

I still think a similar ride system to Minecraft makes sense, or same manufacturer. A multi circuit Intamin could be great. European first and maybe with some unique trick track. Just to squeeze the most out the space and offer re-rideability.

It will be the first big test of the MMM vision for me, hopefully less self referential (less signs) and more emphasis on story telling and place making. I’m not sure anyone can stomach any more pseudo industrial themes anymore (Swarm, Saw, Nemesis Reborn, Walking Dead, Toxciator, Smiler)

I don't think it will be an IP. They just don't seem to do that with the major coaster installments.

A modern take on the Black Hole would be excellent. Obviously much better effects and technology and greatly improved capacity would be required but given what they did with Wickerman and Nemesis Reborn, I'd have every confidence they could pull that off too.

 

[Danscott22]

I want a new indoor coaster massively, but I want 2 flats in X-Sector, 1 in Forbidden Valley and 1 in Dark Forest even more. Whilst all your coasters are going down constantly, Toxicator's downtime was minimal really at the weekend. Add another 4 flats and it's still an issue but not as much. Got a feeling Horizon could be a 2027 installation though

 

[Bert2theSpark]

I was re-reading Life After Nemesis last night, and he kind of hints towards The Black Hole being reincarnated at some point, and apparently the idea comes up every time during a new ride development, much like a woodie did.

Apparently the excuse would always be that indoor coasters cause too much whiplash, and would need to be Disney-scale to avoid such an injury, but now we’ve seen more indoor coasters being built like DarKoaster (of which PH is a similar building size). So I guess manufacturers have found a way around the whiplash issue.

Other ideas that Towers management have considered in the recent past like Dinner Shows and Virtual Queuing Systems were also mentioned around the same section of the book, so it’s feasible he was referencing toward PH being a Black Hole revival in some form.

 

[tayspru]

The benefit or a dark coaster is that an off the shelf layout can be used. If something like Darkoaster fits, could they plus the ride expterience with multi-dimension trains a la Studio Tour? Could be a budget friendly way to achieve a unique attraction