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[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

Alastair said:
Wouldn't be a huge surprise if so, although I would expect the land would still be used (albeit for a significantly cheaper installation). The impression has been for quite a while now that they have no intention in investing in large-scale attractions for Alton Towers.
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They must have spent around £15 to £20 million of capital at Towers since 2023.

I have no idea on Horizons future, but I don’t think past investment is indicative of future intention as the investment has been high, it’s just sadly being mostly used fixing years of neglect.

I had heard vague rumour that the new management wasn’t overly keen on the original plan for Horizon and had asked the creative team to go back to the drawing board on the internal plans which I can believe, I would also not be surprised if they have decided a coaster is not a priority (because honestly I don’t think it is), but I don’t think the issue is capital investment at the moment.
 
I would feel that if PH has changed it is likely to to now include TWODW and Dungeons into one complete land which does mean more more to spend but in the wake of Universal's arrival, they simply have to make the most of it which could explain partly of it going back to the drawing board.

If they have simply given up after all this time then it is pretty much a sign that Merlin (or at least Towers) have already thrown the towel in even before Universal have planted a shovel into the ground and to let permission slide after getting it would be really foolish indeed.
 
QTXAdsy said:
If they have simply given up after all this time then it is pretty much a sign that Merlin (or at least Towers) have already thrown the towel in even before Universal have planted a shovel into the ground and to let permission slide after getting it would be really foolish indeed.
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I don't agree with this. If the new management felt that what was planned for this was not actually suitable or right for the park then pulling the plug before it's too late would be the right thing to do. Although that may not be what has happened, it could still just be delayed or going through revisions.

It could be that they feel there are other priorities that need addressing at the park, which as Dave had alluded to above, would probably be a fair assessment to make as it stands.
 
Dave said:
They must have spent around £15 to £20 million of capital at Towers since 2023.

I have no idea on Horizons future, but I don’t think past investment is indicative of future intention as the investment has been high, it’s just sadly being mostly used fixing years of neglect.

I had heard vague rumour that the new management wasn’t overly keen on the original plan for Horizon and had asked the creative team to go back to the drawing board on the internal plans which I can believe, I would also not be surprised if they have decided a coaster is not a priority (because honestly I don’t think it is), but I don’t think the issue is capital investment at the moment.
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Agreed. The level of capex being pumped in at the moment is more than we’ve seen in arguably a decade (or more?) Curse, Hex, Nemesis, Nemesis Sub Terra, Sky Ride, Congo River Rapids and Toxicator have all seen significant investment. Let’s face it, in 2022 the park was rotting and it’s now in a better place than it was back then, and Operations/throughput now seem to be a priority again. Yes we need a few more filler attractions but to me, the focus currently seems to be on the “core” of what a theme park is - good ops, good availability and a good mix of attractions, albeit this element does still need to grow.

I’m sure after another couple of years of flat ride investment we’ll see a new headline area open on the site of TWoDW / Dungeons / Horizon site, but I’d be happy if this isn’t until 2028 once they’ve had the time and capex allowance to fix what’s still outstanding.
 
s_g_k said:
Agreed. The level of capex being pumped in at the moment is more than we’ve seen in arguably a decade (or more?) Curse, Hex, Nemesis, Nemesis Sub Terra, Sky Ride, Congo River Rapids and Toxicator have all seen significant investment.
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This is true but none of those are new attractions. They're either rethemes of old attractions, rebuilding and retheming old attractions, or investing in rides that have broken down. They've spent a lot of money to get back to where they were a decade ago and that's not enough to drive new people to visit, or to drive people to visit again. Project Horizon and a newly themed area around it would have been, and if that's been cancelled because they've finally spent the money they should've spent all along just to stand still then that'd be a shame.
 
Whilst the park doesn’t necessarily need another coaster currently, I think it’s essential as then it gives them the flexibility to make the decisions over the likes of Rita and Galactica. As well as the advantages an indoor coaster has in bad weather.

So it definitely shouldn’t be viewed in isolation, and I’m still optimistic that they’re cooking up something good. A lot of what they’ve done recently (Reborn, Toxicator, Curse) has been to a high standard and has improved the park, hopefully that continues.
 
benpicko said:
This is true but none of those are new attractions. They're either rethemes of old attractions, rebuilding and retheming old attractions, or investing in rides that have broken down. They've spent a lot of money to get back to where they were a decade ago and that's not enough to drive new people to visit, or to drive people to visit again. Project Horizon and a newly themed area around it would have been, and if that's been cancelled because they've finally spent the money they should've spent all along just to stand still then that'd be a shame.
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I think the notion of “new people” visiting is a bit weak, because every year there are families who have children who are finally tall enough to ride certain attractions and whose babies are old enough to appreciate CBeebies Land, so it that respect the park will always have a fresh crowd every year.

I doubt anyone would have preferred Horizon and a new area whilst Hex and NST remained mothballed, Duel and CRR continued rotting, nemesis ended up closing and Toxicator never happened:
 
Mick said:
Whilst the park doesn’t necessarily need another coaster currently, I think it’s essential as then it gives them the flexibility to make the decisions over the likes of Rita and Galactica. As well as the advantages an indoor coaster has in bad weather.

So it definitely shouldn’t be viewed in isolation, and I’m still optimistic that they’re cooking up something good. A lot of what they’ve done recently (Reborn, Toxicator, Curse) has been to a high standard and has improved the park, hopefully that continues.
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Agree with this. Excellent point re: Galactica and Rita removal. As a straight swap id let Rita go to allow a proper Dark Forest re-do.

Although I think the option of having an indoor coaster option which could open in the winter months, that may be possible to overlay too could be exactly what the place needs.

I’m no planning expert but if there was any the consent was at risk then they absolutely should build it. Regardless of anything else.

Otherwise if they could spread the £15-20m to:

2 flat rides in X Sector - £4m
1 flat ride in FV on the blade site - £1.5m
Dungeons reworked to trackless dark ride - £8m
4D cinema reopen & coffee shop in old nick building - £1.5m
Galactica re-theme - £1m
Spruce of the entrance plaza and tower street - £1m
Family restaurant and Swiss Cottage reinstated - £500k

That money could do a lot of good.
 
benpicko said:
This is true but none of those are new attractions. They're either rethemes of old attractions, rebuilding and retheming old attractions, or investing in rides that have broken down. They've spent a lot of money to get back to where they were a decade ago and that's not enough to drive new people to visit, or to drive people to visit again. Project Horizon and a newly themed area around it would have been, and if that's been cancelled because they've finally spent the money they should've spent all along just to stand still then that'd be a shame.
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This is essentially my main gripe. No serious theme park goes 10+ years without a major new attraction, it simply isn't sustainable from a visitorship perspective. As stated above, there should have been simultaneous investment in renovation/refurb of old rides as well as something major - the appeal of a renovated ride simply isn't significant to the non-enthusiast.
 
Alastair said:
This is essentially my main gripe. No serious theme park goes 10+ years without a major new attraction, it simply isn't sustainable from a visitorship perspective. As stated above, there should have been simultaneous investment in renovation/refurb of old rides as well as something major - the appeal of a renovated ride simply isn't significant to the non-enthusiast.
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Not that I disagree with you but technically Disneyland Paris hasn’t had a major new attraction in I believe 19 years!

Obviously they do renovate/refurb/maintain their rides considerably more and have an adjacent park with many new attractions in that time so not the same by any means but I think it does somewhat demonstrate that keeping a park with existing high quality attractions in excellent condition can be enough to maintain public interest for long periods.

I think people would look far more favourably on the existing AT line-up if everything was open as advertised with much shorter queues.
 
Bowser said:
I think people would look far more favourably on the existing AT line-up if everything was open as advertised with much shorter queues.
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To be honest, I'd also second this but also add that if they have maintained/replaced rides in the line up, I think the park would also be looked at favourably.

I know the coasters are generally the headliners but so are the dark and water rides. I think having the likes of the Dungeons Boat Ride system, the Flume, 4D cinema really helped with capacity.

We can't forget about the flat rides whilst they're more supporting rides, they actually help sponge the queues from the likes of Oblivion, Smiler etc.

I think that if the flat rides were maintained or replaced, if the dark rides that are out of action were kept in action and if The Flume was replaced like for like somewhere in the park, I think the park would be looked at a bit more favourably.

I think the current queue situation is made worse by not having as many rides at the park as they did years ago.
 
Bowser said:
Not that I disagree with you but technically Disneyland Paris hasn’t had a major new attraction in I believe 19 years!

Obviously they do renovate/refurb/maintain their rides considerably more and have an adjacent park with many new attractions in that time so not the same by any means but I think it does somewhat demonstrate that keeping a park with existing high quality attractions in excellent condition can be enough to maintain public interest for long periods.

I think people would look far more favourably on the existing AT line-up if everything was open as advertised with much shorter queues.
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Actually they have the benefit of the new attractions going into WDS (or whatever it'll be called) which in truth needed more attractions than Disneyland Park itself which if not for that then we would have seen more newer attractions for the older park.

Anyway, I do feel that Towers needs a major new attraction/area sooner than later as while they have done revamps of current attractions, they don't bring the same interest to the GP compared to enthusiasts.
 
I also think the key difference with DLP is that they have that all-important Disney name pulling people in year after year.

That brand recognition is vital, and probably a large part of why the main park has been able to coast for so long without a major new attraction.
 
It is also important to remember that DLP was built as a theme park once, with all of the pathing determined, all of the rides required added. AT (and many other parks) are built much slower, each ride added one by one, DLP had all their rides added, and they ensured they had everything.

Disney also has a much differnt ride style, most other parks dark rides are an outlier, but disney it is their main ride, the haunted mansion, pirates, space mountain, its a small world etc leading to differnt desires from the public in terms of replacment

currently AT ride offerings is lacking with certain areas (such as flat ride / filler rides) and needs something to absorb the crowds
 
Alastair said:
This is essentially my main gripe. No serious theme park goes 10+ years without a major new attraction, it simply isn't sustainable from a visitorship perspective. As stated above, there should have been simultaneous investment in renovation/refurb of old rides as well as something major - the appeal of a renovated ride simply isn't significant to the non-enthusiast.
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You say that but where is the evidence visitor numbers are dropping?

Merlin never astound me with their business model but I am certain they will be watching their various KPI’s carefully, so if visitor numbers are dropping they would be all over it.
 
Dave said:
You say that but where is the evidence visitor numbers are dropping?

Merlin never astound me with their business model but I am certain they will be watching their various KPI’s carefully, so if visitor numbers are dropping they would be all over it.
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I think COVID had such a profound impact on reference to visitor numbers that any downturn wouldn't up until now have likely been significant or particularly concerning. But now we're another 5 years on from then, and still with no new major attraction in sight, I would be genuinely shocked if there didn't begin to be some knock on effect.
 
Alastair said:
I think COVID had such a profound impact on reference to visitor numbers that any downturn wouldn't up until now have likely been significant or particularly concerning. But now we're another 5 years on from then, and still with no new major attraction in sight, I would be genuinely shocked if there didn't begin to be some knock on effect.
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Merlin has access to data going back decades, The park excluding Covid and 2015/ 16 swings between 2.3 to 3.1 million visits a year and they will know that. 2023 and 2024 were also the peak of cost of living crisis.

I’m not saying you are definitely wrong, I’m just saying that a company that has basically been run by marketing executives for decades is going to have that data to hand.

I’m certain a coaster is in the works (other than the CBeebies one), but I do wonder if they had real concerns over the plans for Horizon and have gone back to the drawing board, at least for the internal design if not the whole thing. Plus I get the feeling they know the park lacks flat rides and ultimately flat rides have less of a maintenance and staffing budget hit than coasters for the most part.
 
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