Black Lives Matter Discussion

Discussion in 'Corner Coffee' started by D4n, 26th Jun 2020.

  1. D4n

    D4n TowersStreet Member

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    Team Edit: The below discussion has been split from The Talbots and Slavery in the Talbot Street forum as discussion had moved onto a more general discussion about racism and the BLM movement. Please also refer to the Alton Towers topic as some points related to the discussion were also made in there too.


    Seems to me @Britford that you're giving this a lot more thought than any of "those violent antifa/ BLM types" ever would.

    This kind of falsehood always happens whenever there are protests. Claims of "oooh now they're coming for X, Y and Z" when actually nobody ever called for them to be removed.

    The number of people who have claimed to me recently that "now they want to ban Mary Poppins because of the scene with coal on his face"... it's ridiculous, and you're doing the exact same thing, imagining offence where none has been taken.

    None of the current Alton Towers attractions are offensive and nobody has claimed that they are. Why act as though they have?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 7th Aug 2020
    Posted 26th Jun 2020
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  2. OilyWater

    OilyWater TowersStreet Member

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    But it's not without reason these things would be deemed unacceptable in the future, despite no problem existing all this time. Disney announced they will redesign Splash Mountain for similarly tenuous reasons, one of the best loved attractions in the world.

    For more valid reasons Efteling were lobbied to redesign Carnival, which they then did do in a much more reasonable way, keeping the cartoony themes just changing the tone of some parts
     
    Last edited: 26th Jun 2020
    Posted 26th Jun 2020
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  3. D4n

    D4n TowersStreet Member

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    People have talked about Splash Mountain in terms of its connection to Song of the South ever since it opened.

    Similarly, it has been a running joke for years that Carnival Festival was questionable as best (as is Monsieur Cannibale).

    Nobody has ever claimed that any of the attractions at Towers is racist in any way shape or form yet Britford has listed a whole barrage of examples of... what? Things that he imagines other people might be offended by (because he totally misunderstands and demonises the BLM movement). In reality, nobody has ever been offended by these things. So I'll reiterate - any offence is imagined. Totally imagined.
     
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    Posted 26th Jun 2020
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  4. OilyWater

    OilyWater TowersStreet Member

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    Yeah I completely agree, the offence is imagined.

    Yeah, a few ideologues maybe, seeing everything through a racial prism. There was no actual racial element to the ride, unlike the movie it was barely based on. It's only come about now due to Twitter echo chambers convincing themselves that Disney needed to do it or else they'd be racist, and Disney realising they could make some money out of looking good. Although I understand that America is much more senstive to these things, and Disney claims they were gonna do it regardless if you believe that (money then).

    So you see where things *could* head in future, hopefully it won't come to that though and people can keep a balanced view. There's far worse problems to solve than trying to target some ride.
     
    Last edited: 26th Jun 2020
    Posted 26th Jun 2020
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  5. RoyJess

    RoyJess TowersStreet Member

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    People should learn all aspect of history before condemning and judging historical figures.

    At the same time period when black slaves were first transported to America, North Africans and Turks were enslaving and profiting from the white slave trade too. That's right, they were taking white men women and children from England and selling them for profit white slaves were called "white gold" by the slave traders. They captured English ships , they came on land to coastal areas to kidnap whites. Check out Barbary Slave Trade and Britons were slaves in Africa
     
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    Posted 26th Jun 2020
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  6. jon81uk

    jon81uk TowersStreet Member

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    now they could be lying, but Disney announced they have been planning the retheme for over a year. Although the reasons for the choice in timing of this announcement is obvious, it’s believable that they have been planning this for some time. Disney know they need to feature more non-white characters and Tiana, Moana and Mulan should be used more. Disney also loves a re-do, Splash Mountain itself used animatronics from America Sings. See also ToT to Guardians of the Galaxy, the multiple versions of Hyperspace Mountain etc etc. Also Bob Iger wants (although this was in reference to Epcot it seems to apply to most of modern day Disney) “more Disney, timeless, relevant, family friendly.”. By using more IP and reference newer films they are definitely becoming more relevant and more Disney.


    Having said all that, New Orleans is flat, there are no mountains, Splash mountain in Frontierland doesn’t sit with Princess and the Frog.
     
    Posted 27th Jun 2020
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  7. Orange Ribena

    Orange Ribena TowersStreet Member

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    You seriously cannot get a break from this stuff anyway.

    Nobody was fussed a few months ago and now everyone if jumping on the virtual signalling bandwagon.

    Well no I'm not all interested in feeling guilty or anyone else feel guilty about actions of people long dead.
     
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    Posted 23rd Jul 2020
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  8. Log Flume's Dennis

    Log Flume's Dennis TowersStreet Member

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    I bet you're fun at parties
     
    Posted 6th Aug 2020
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  9. Burn.e

    Burn.e TowersStreet Member

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    I think it’s fair to call this attempted mitigation of the pervasiveness of the African Slave Trade as what it is: racism, and I’m surprised a comment like this is allowed and unchallenged on this forum.
     
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  10. RoyJess

    RoyJess TowersStreet Member

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    I've think this country has come a long way since the abolition of the slave trade, this was almost 200 years ago, but yet people (long before those that were even born) seem to want to hold on to it and won't let go.

    I'm against discrimination and hate crime, but this is not exclusive to just the bame community, we need to tackle discrimination and hate in all areas including disability, sexuality etc...

    We have discrimination and hate crime laws in this country. It is individuals that need to follow them, and if the past few months is anything to go by with the covid crisis, people will break the law/rules including those at the top.

    I'm not racist, I support BLM with regards to discrimination and anti hate, but I do not support their political agenda. Pulling down statues, buildings, renaming roads/buildings, calling for anything that don't like to be label as racist in order to make political changes don't wash with me.

    Equality needs to be balance other wise you end up with things going the other way (George Orwell Animal Farm). Wiley is an example of hypocrisy.

    Don't erase the past, we all need to learn from it as to ensure that history isn't repeated.
    Today we all can make small changes to make a better future for us all as equals.
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  11. rob666

    rob666 TowersStreet Member

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    No.
    Open dialogue is essential in coming to terms with diversity and racism.
    What roy has said is factually correct, in the correct topic, and is not offensive.
    Are you saying historical issues like this shouldnt be discussed?
    Your own comment is allowed, and challenged.
    That is what discussion forums are all about, open discussion, not trying to highbrow members into silence.
    Every opinion is sacred.
    Even yours.
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  12. Burn.e

    Burn.e TowersStreet Member

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    Who are ‘they’? Black Lives Matter is not political, it’s only agenda is to acknowledge and begin to undo the structural racism that our society is built on and effects every facet of our culture. It’s sociological if anything. Using ‘discrimination/hate laws’ as a means to suggest racism is not a problem or a relevant discussion is a good indication of both your naivety and your privilege.

    You can’t speak for people of colour or their experience of racism in today’s society, so you’d do well to listen to their experiences and not in any way attempt to speak over people or curtail relevant, overdue, important discussions (a very pertinent aspect of migro-aggressive, dismissive racism).

    Consider, even, the representation of people of colour on this very forum and within this discussion.
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  13. Burn.e

    Burn.e TowersStreet Member

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    To compare them would be incredibly offensive.
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  14. rob666

    rob666 TowersStreet Member

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    To compare what exactly...and I dont know who"they" are either???
    Clarification required please.
     
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  15. Burn.e

    Burn.e TowersStreet Member

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    The African slave trade to other, objectively more minimal slave trades (not that that matters), in an attempt to mitigate a conversation regarding the African slave trade, specifically.
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  16. rob666

    rob666 TowersStreet Member

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    ...
     
    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  17. RoyJess

    RoyJess TowersStreet Member

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    :confused: Of course they have a political agenda beyond racism, check them out

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/revealed-what-black-lives-matter-really-stands-for


    Double standards don't wash with me.

    In history we had different standards to today, not just with slave trade but in all aspect in life, we have move on since then. BLM hasn't engage me, they have just simply got my hackles up, especially when racism is used to undo our history and culture.
     
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  18. Craig

    Craig TS Administrator Team Member

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    I've moved the above posts into a separate topic as requested. Please also refer to the original Alton Towers topic as some points related to the discussion were also made in there that have not been moved. A few things from a team perspective:

    • This is a controversial subject, many will have very polarising and opposing views. Remain respectful in your discussion and understanding of each other's views.
    • Whilst some may not agree some people's own personal opinions, we will only remove posts which go against our forum guidelines. This is a discussion forum after all, and removing people's viewpoints does nothing to progress discussion or allow people to gain an understanding of those opposing views. Posts will remain providing they are presented in a sensible, respectful and mature manner.
     
    Last edited: 7th Aug 2020
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  19. Plastic Person

    Plastic Person TowersStreet Member

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    Roy, this piece is from The Spectator, which aside from Tatler or whatever, is the last remaining upper class, conservative publication in the UK. They have a distinct, arguably imperialist agenda. They wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire, frankly.

    I don't want to make this topic too personal, but given that you regularly discuss your own situation caring for and loving a marginalised member of society, I'm surprised and disappointed you don't have more empathy towards a generation of people who are fed up of what they see as symbolic representations of structural racism in the UK? Picking up one example of "ahhh but they also traded white people ahhhh!" from the vast span of human history does indeed mitigate the current discussion, nor does it contribute anything useful. You say you're against racism/not racist, and I think that's probably true, but we're entering a new phase now in which the trickle down effect is investigated. This introspection and discussion is often uncomfortable and heated (as this topic proves), but I am comfortable saying that dismissing BLM puts you distinctly, disappointingly on the wrong side of history.

    Nonetheless, I understand that you're in a very specific and vulnerable situation as to lockdown and quarantine, and I understand why the protests might be frustrating to you on a personal level.

    P.S. A curse on whoever needlessly bumped the old topic months later.
     
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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  20. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    Certainly not going to defend the Spectator, but that is the laziest 'article' I've seen in a while - it's basically a list of things BLM social channels and the like have said over time.

    I think it depends how you define 'political', it's not a political party, but it ticks a number of boxes in that it's an organisation that raises money in order to try and enact change that could only be achieved through legislation or revolution.

    BLM has a pretty broad spectrum of policy and positions with a pretty loose structure of governance and decision making. Not dissimilar to XR in some ways. The message and position proliferates and changes depending on who is put forward to do the media.

    Are you comfortable with the defunding of the police and the abolition of the prison system in its entirety? I think there are a lot of people comfortable with the overarching aims & intentions of the movement, but I think a lot of 'mainstream' people distance themselves from the organisation due to those two particular policy areas, amongst others.
     
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    Posted 7th Aug 2020
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