To be fair, a manufacturer can only work with the budgets and brief they’re given. I doubt Garmendale would have any say in the number of boats it runs. In terms of reliability, possibly yes, depending on what kind of work they’ve done on the ride and what’s causing the downtime.
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Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I apologise for playing devil's advocate here, but does Fastrack necessarily make the queues longer?
It does make the queues slower-moving, which I completely understand will make them feel longer (time will seem to pass more slowly if you're moving more slowly), but surely if Fastrack didn't exist, the guests in the Fastrack queue would simply be in the main queue, which will make the queue take the same amount of time regardless due to the physical length of the queue being increased?
George W
TS Member
Nope I see your logic but that's only the case if they wait 100% of the normal queue length in a virtual queue like how RAP is meant to be and not queueing for any other ride's for the meanwhile because that way they would just be in the queue anyway and waited the same time as you so it has little impact.
But put it this way if you're waiting in a queue for an hour and fast track is 10 minutes meaning they can ride 6 times in the time you can ride once that means they have an paid advantage meaning they can take up 6 seats in the time you can sit on it once which will obviously slow things down for people in the main queue.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I see your point, and I get that that could change the queue times slightly, but my point is that I'm not sure that a 100 minute queue with Fastrack would suddenly turn into a 20 minute queue or some other drastically shorter queue time if Fastrack was abolished. I think the issue is more multi-faceted than being caused by Fastrack alone, and I don't even think that Fastrack is the largest cause of the issue by a long shot.
It's also worth noting that there often are allocated return times with Fastrack, to the best of my knowledge; at very least, I know that the cheaper one shot Fastracks, which probably make up the bulk of Fastrack sales, require you to reserve a timeslot rather than just letting you lap the ride freely with no queue. To the best of my knowledge, the only Fastrack package that would allow you to lap the ride freely in the manner that you describe is the very top Fastrack package which costs far more money. Buyers of the top package will make up a vast minority of Fastrack users.
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Yes Matt...every last time...it makes queues longer, and operations much slower, due to it not being managed properly, anywhere, ever!
Additional spend money making machine that actually makes poor operations pay extra.
People are paying extra to cut the line, that means non extra payers have to wait for them to have a go.
Simple, undeniable logic mate....they pay to go quick, so you go slow.
pluk
TS Member
It hugely extends your queue time.
As someone who likes counting things, watch the number of people entering a fastrack queue. If you are in the queue every one of those people have extended your wait time. With some rides now operating at 50/50 split your time is doubled. Some at 30/30/30 split with the RAP fastrack variation your wait time is increased 66%. Huge huge numbers.
...but wouldn't those people already be in the queue making it just as long initially you ask? No, they would not. If fastrack users wait half the time, and most of the time the reductions is a lot more significant than that, then they will enter a queue twice while you are in it, 3 or 4 times with a longish queue and shortish fastrack. A huge proportion of those people would not be available to be in the queue you join if they were unable to jump queues, theyd still be in the queie for their previus ride. The increase in standby queue would be very small, around 15% by my basic working out (although youd have to have a much better set of data to really know, including how many have a package over one shots, how many repeatedly use etc etc), as opposed to over 100% being the normal.
You've been to Europa, you've been to Paultons, you've seen it for yourself. It's a cash cow that feeds itself and it is destroying your average quests ability to have a decent day out. The worst thing is how badly the UK as a whole has fallen for it.
Dave
TS Founding Member
The other issue with fast track is often you end up with people effectively in 2 queues at once (happens with RAP as well thanks to the fact so many RAP users can curiously queue as well as use the RAP pass but that’s another story.)
If you have anything other than an unlimited fast pass you are also going to use the standard queue as well as your FT tickets. This means in effect 1 person is in 2 queues at any given time.
If you don’t have fast track one person queues in one queue only. The other benefit of not having fast track is if a queue gets long people tend to stop joining so the demand falls and the queue drops, this balances out the “load” across a park. People with fast track don’t make those same considerations so the queues build exponentially.
If you have anything other than an unlimited fast pass you are also going to use the standard queue as well as your FT tickets. This means in effect 1 person is in 2 queues at any given time.
If you don’t have fast track one person queues in one queue only. The other benefit of not having fast track is if a queue gets long people tend to stop joining so the demand falls and the queue drops, this balances out the “load” across a park. People with fast track don’t make those same considerations so the queues build exponentially.
pluk
TS Member
...but it often will depending in the split they are working to. If fastrack were in any way controlled with timed returns it'd be less of an issue, but despite the massive income generated they don't spend the money on managing it effectively.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I apologise if I’ve missed something here, but my question is; if Fastrack is removed, where do the people in the Fastrack queue go? They won’t just dissipate into thin air, so surely there aren’t many other places for them to go aside from the main queue, whether that be the main queue for the same ride or a different ride? My point is that I don’t think it’s as crude as “if Fastrack goes and 50% of riders are Fastrack riders, the queue time will automatically reduce by 50%” because you need somewhere for those Fastrack users to go, and naturally, at least some of them will join the back of the main queue, either for that ride or a different ride, which makes the queues physically longer and means that the queue time on each ride does not automatically fall by 50% or whatever the ratio is.
I get that removing Fastrack might reduce queues by a little bit for varying reasons, but I still don’t buy the theory that a 100 minute queue would suddenly become a 30 minute one if Fastrack was removed tomorrow. I think there are other factors at play causing that queue to be 100 minutes. I believe that in the case of the previously cited examples of Europa Park and Paultons Park, there are other factors at play that reduce the queue times rather than simply the absence of Fastrack. Europa Park has world-leading operations and throughputs on its major rides, as well as a very high number of peripheral supporting activities, rides or otherwise. Paultons Park has notably lower guest figures than somewhere like Chessington on the bigger rides in particular, which will naturally reduce the queue times on its own.
My point is that I don’t think that Chessington removing Fastrack tomorrow would suddenly turn it into a utopia with 20-30 minute queues across the board, as the people who are in the Fastrack queue need to go somewhere, whether that is at the back of the same ride’s main queue or at the back of a different main queue. I think parks with lesser queues have other factors helping them to reduce the queues aside from a lack of Fastrack on its own.
I get that removing Fastrack might reduce queues by a little bit for varying reasons, but I still don’t buy the theory that a 100 minute queue would suddenly become a 30 minute one if Fastrack was removed tomorrow. I think there are other factors at play causing that queue to be 100 minutes. I believe that in the case of the previously cited examples of Europa Park and Paultons Park, there are other factors at play that reduce the queue times rather than simply the absence of Fastrack. Europa Park has world-leading operations and throughputs on its major rides, as well as a very high number of peripheral supporting activities, rides or otherwise. Paultons Park has notably lower guest figures than somewhere like Chessington on the bigger rides in particular, which will naturally reduce the queue times on its own.
My point is that I don’t think that Chessington removing Fastrack tomorrow would suddenly turn it into a utopia with 20-30 minute queues across the board, as the people who are in the Fastrack queue need to go somewhere, whether that is at the back of the same ride’s main queue or at the back of a different main queue. I think parks with lesser queues have other factors helping them to reduce the queues aside from a lack of Fastrack on its own.
Katy
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Wildfire (Kolmården)
Removing Fast Track and RAP means the total queue length (in terms of number of people in the main queue) would increase, however 100% of the ride capacity is now feeding from the single main queue so it moves faster. Obviously "faster" is limited by how good or poor the capacity and operations of each ride is, in Chessington's case there would still be very long queues but they'd just move a little bit quicker.
Zeock
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Journey to the Center of the Earth
I would definitely say that poor throughputs contribute more to long queues than Fastrack does. This doesn't mean that I like Fastrack though; in fact, I would like to see it removed but there is no chance of that happening.
Fast track is too much of a cash cow to ever be removed, that horse has bolted but I do think that it causes bother on busy days based on my experience here. In my ideal world there would be one queue for everyone, and one queue for RAP or whatever it's currently called. *Possibly* a single rider queue for the coasters too but again that just introduces another queue line for a slow batcher to deal with.
That said some rides the fast track queue is borderline empty and the main queue is still atrocious so I think a bulk of the problem is just a lasseiz-faire attitude to ride loading.
That said some rides the fast track queue is borderline empty and the main queue is still atrocious so I think a bulk of the problem is just a lasseiz-faire attitude to ride loading.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I agree. I think having it all feed from the main queue gives off the perception that the queue takes less time due to it moving faster, but it would still take a broadly similar amount of time.
I thought Fastrack often did have a timed return? I know that when my family have looked at one shot Fastrack out of interest, it always shows a list of return times to choose from.
Very rarely have I ever waited more than ten minutes under good old pay per ride.
POP causes a lack of incentive to maximise capacity...why bother with that second train?
Fasttrack makes things worse, the park makes extra money if throughput is poor, and queuejump passes get oversold, so the main queue gets even longer.
And a lot of people with those unlimited queuejump passes wouldn't ever be seen dead in an hour long queue, so they go to the bar or elsewhere instead.
They would not all be in the main queue.
POP causes a lack of incentive to maximise capacity...why bother with that second train?
Fasttrack makes things worse, the park makes extra money if throughput is poor, and queuejump passes get oversold, so the main queue gets even longer.
And a lot of people with those unlimited queuejump passes wouldn't ever be seen dead in an hour long queue, so they go to the bar or elsewhere instead.
They would not all be in the main queue.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
Fastrack is limited, though (I know this, as I’ve seen Fastrack sell out), so they don’t necessarily make extra money if the throughput is poor.
Also, “unlimited queue jump passes” likely make up a vast minority of Fastrack users; most Fastrack users are probably people buying one shot Fastracks (by virtue of the prices being lower). And if all these people go to the bar, then the bar will get busier, so there eventually ends up being nowhere else for some of these folks to go other than into a main queue, either for the same ride or elsewhere.
Plastic Person
TS Member
The operating costs of a ride are the bare minimum for any park's expenditure, so regardless of throughput, Fastrack always means 'extra money'.
While I tend to prefer the few remaining parks without Fastrack, or at least those with a version of it that doesn't seem to overwhelmingly impact the base visitor experience (Phantasialand, Parc Asterix), I accept that the horse has indeed bolted. The fact that Paulton's are able to use their lack of it as an incentive to visit demonstrates that paid queue jumping is an accepted part of a general park experience, even if it's one that's not always well-liked, and I've even witnessed complaints that Europa Park doesn't offer it.
I'm sure that the "does Fastrack make queues longer?" argument that @Matt N is proposing is being made in his usual good faith, but unless my D in GCSE maths is just as useless as I was warned, surely the answer is obviously.... yes!? I have waited in some long queues in the past at EP and even Universal, but their length has been tempered by the fact that they are near-constantly moving. The problem is demand, not capacity. Queueing for Thirteen, on the other hand, is a torturous experience these days as you can see the ride cresting the lift hill and returning to the building, but you are quite obviously, not moving anywhere fast. This was not the case in 2010/2011.
jon81uk
TS Member
The difference would be the ability for the fast track guest to do two lines.
So with fastrack they could ride Vampire with a short wait, then join the 20 minute regular queue for Blue Barnacle, doing both attractions in half hour and then can do the carousel.
The guest without fastrack waits 60 minutes for Vampire then 20 for Blue Barnacle so it takes them 80 minutes to do two rides before they can get on the carousel.
The fast track guest has managed to do three rides (Vampire, Barnacle, Carousel) while the regular guest was in the Vampire queue. If they didn't have the fast track the Barnacle queue might even be shorter as the fast track guest would wait longer for Vampire so fewer people waiting for the smaller ride.
Remove fast track and both guests then wait 40 minutes for Vampire (for example) as the wait drops from the 60 as there are no longer fast track guests slowing the main queue. Then they wait 20 minutes for Blue Barnacle and everyone gets on the carousel after 60 minutes.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I’m not denying that it makes the queues move more slowly, but I do wonder whether at least some of the perceived queue lengthening is down to perception of lengthening caused by queues moving more slowly rather than actual queue lengthening. Queueing psychology has been well explored and researched, and it has often been said that a queue of a given duration that moves slowly will often be perceived to be longer than a queue of the same duration that moves quickly, and that a queue that is perceived as unfair (which a queue with Fastrack and RAP could well be) will seem to take longer than a queue that is perceived as fair (which a queue with no Fastrack and RAP could well be).
Both of the examples you mention seem to be perception rather than physical queue lengthening; the queues aren’t necessarily any shorter at EP or Universal than the queue on Thirteen, but they move more quickly which makes you perceive them to be shorter.
It’s interesting that you mention Universal, actually, as having been to Universal Orlando Resort in June, I would raise that as a very good example of a place where Fastrack is operated, but does not negatively affect the guest experience. Those queues move even with Fastrack in place; I can think of a considerable number of those queues that are among the fastest-moving I have ever waited in, and that includes the Fastrack-less queues at Europa Park. Even with Fastrack in place, you are pretty much always moving in a Universal queue.
By the same token, I went to Flamingo Land on Monday. Those queues move pretty slowly, and while the park does have Fastrack in place, I don’t think that removing Fastrack would suddenly turn the queue for, say, Pterodactyl from a 40 minute queue into a nominal or walk-on queue. Even without Fastrack, I’d hazard a guess that that queue would still move pretty slowly and remain at a certain length.
I’m not saying that Fastrack has no effect on the length of the main queue, and I’ll admit that my initial point last night missed out a number of factors and did not contemplate a number of possibilities, but I do believe that in the vast majority of cases, Fastrack or lack of it is not the key thing making a queue long or short. A queue that is short or fast-moving will likely remain so even with Fastrack in place, and a queue that is long or slow-moving will likely remain so even without Fastrack. I think throughput is a much more important factor in determining how long or fast-moving a queue will be.
I also maintain that it’s not as simple as “Fastrack takes up 50% of the throughput, so removing Fastrack will automatically make queues 50% shorter”. When you remove Fastrack queues, the people in them don’t dissipate into thin air; they have to go somewhere. And surely in at least a certain percentage of cases, that “somewhere” will be in the back of the main queue, making it physically longer and offsetting some of the reductions from losing the Fastrack queue?
Benzin
TS Member
Queues are longer with Fastrack.
Was always noticeable after closing time. A 45-60 minute queue on Vampire post queues being closed could end up being just 30 minutes, and that was back in the day before it was grossly oversold and put on every ride.
Those people end up spread across the park, at Chessie you have a zoo to help spread everyone out anyway. If the Merlin parks had more non-ride options for things to do would help spread the crowds even further.
Was always noticeable after closing time. A 45-60 minute queue on Vampire post queues being closed could end up being just 30 minutes, and that was back in the day before it was grossly oversold and put on every ride.
Those people end up spread across the park, at Chessie you have a zoo to help spread everyone out anyway. If the Merlin parks had more non-ride options for things to do would help spread the crowds even further.