Cuts 2015: How the consistency of the product is being eroded.

[Jem8472]

I can't remember if you were one of the people that said Alton Towers struggles against the wrath of the supressive Merlin beast, but you can't claim implementations like Sub Terra on merlin and then say the bosses at the park are against bad ideas.

Regardless of fault over Sub-Terra, that ride makes further investment justification even harder.

I rarely get invovled with the forums so I was not someone that was commenting on SubTerra.

 

[nadroJ]

With regards to AP discount in queueline stalls I received the standard 20% off in the Thirteen queue on Saturday, although it was clear that the poor girl was doing the sum in her head as she looked pained during the process!

 

[Dave]

One thing we have to be careful of is not assuming the usual errors and inefficiencies that ALWAYS happen in the first week of the season (because all the staff are new) are cuts.

 

[Coaster]

With all due respect I don't think that removing SRQs indicates that they dislike their fanbase. SRQs were an extra (and free) service which was introduced in order to increase throughputs by filling empty seats. If throughputs are lower on certain rides because it's slowing down dispatch times then they aren't achieving what they were designed to do. If they really didn't care they would have removed them on all rides not just two, but they didn't. They've kept them on all their rides except those where throughputs were affected. Thorpe park did the same when they removed their SRQs on Stealth, Nemesis Inferno and various other rides a few years back. It was only a matter of time before Towers did the same.

I wasn't suggesting that the removal of single rider queues was because they hate their fanbase, I was referring to a post a few above mine which stated that they don't like enthusiasts.

As for the late openings, it does make me chuckle that you're criticising Towers for doing something which BPB (the park which you always seem to champion) do to a much worse extent.

No they don't, fifteen rides now open late at Alton Towers, whereas at BPB it's Valhalla, Grand National, Ghost Train, River Caves, Grand Prix, Impossible, Teacups and possibly Alpine Ralley (I have no idea what time this opens, I think it's 11:30 though) that open later than 10:30am, which is the advertised opening time for the rides. With that said, I don't agree with staggered openings at all (aside from Valhalla, due to the running costs), but Alton Towers is owned by a multi million pound company, whereas BPB makes a loss every year and doesn't have any financial backing, just to put it into context.

 

[jon81uk]

No they don't, fifteen rides now open late at Alton Towers, whereas at BPB it's Valhalla, Grand National, Ghost Train, River Caves, Grand Prix, Impossible, Teacups and possibly Alpine Ralley (I have no idea what time this opens, I think it's 11:30 though) that open later than 10:30am, which is the advertised opening time for the rides. With that said, I don't agree with staggered openings at all (aside from Valhalla, due to the running costs), but Alton Towers is owned by a multi million pound company, whereas BPB makes a loss every year and doesn't have any financial backing, just to put it into context.

Also Blackpool does 8pm or later closes during the summer so it balances out. I would be fine with AT offering later openings if they did later closing too. So if some areas didn't open til 11am even in summer holidays it would be fine, if the whole park closed at 8pm.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I wasn't suggesting that the removal of single rider queues was because they hate their fanbase, I was referring to a post a few above mine which stated that they don't like enthusiasts.

No they don't, fifteen rides now open late at Alton Towers, whereas at BPB it's Valhalla, Grand National, Ghost Train, River Caves, Grand Prix, Impossible, Teacups and possibly Alpine Ralley (I have no idea what time this opens, I think it's 11:30 though) that open later than 10:30am, which is the advertised opening time for the rides. With that said, I don't agree with staggered openings at all (aside from Valhalla, due to the running costs), but Alton Towers is owned by a multi million pound company, whereas BPB makes a loss every year and doesn't have any financial backing, just to put it into context.

Without wanting to get too nit-picky there are several other rides which you haven't mentioned. Last time I was there a lot of the rides in Nickelodeon Land didn't open until 12:00, neither did the Carousel next to Big One. I'm not trying to defend Alton Towers staggered openings but I do feel that you're being very biased here since staggered openings are something which BPB have done for some years. Also just because a company makes a loss doesn't mean that they should be treated like a charity. BPB are still a money making business and even PBE members admit that a series of bad decisions may have been partly to blame for the park's current state of affairs. Let's also remember that Merlin are in massive amounts of debt too. The fact that BPB make a loss is irrelevant, neither park should take the p**s with excessive staggered openings and this season I would say that both parks are. The difference is that at Blackpool it's nothing new.

 

[GaryH]

I think the fact AT is marketed as a "resort" is also key here. In a resort I expect to do whatever activity I want within its opening times and not to find some of it shut or opening later/closing earlier to suit the company rather than the guest.

There's even less incentive this year to fork out and stay in the hotels or Enchanted Forest. ERT is a joke, waterpark the same old same old, mini golf in need of attention, entertainment in the hotels dire, so, what benefits does staying in the resort give you? None anymore. Ooh, free parking, whoopie.

 

[Tom]

I rarely get invovled with the forums so I was not someone that was commenting on SubTerra.

I was trying to identify which camp you were in; the one that believes staff and managers at Alton Towers level are repressed by Merlin and mistakes cannot be attributed to staff at park level OR;

The one that believes that the park staff/managers and Merlin can't really be seen as separate entities.

 

[Jem8472]

I don't know enough about how the company is run but from my experience it will probably be one micromanaging nitwit at Merlin that makes silly choices.

 

[Scott]

I was trying to identify which camp you were in; the one that believes staff and managers at Alton Towers level are repressed by Merlin and mistakes cannot be attributed to staff at park level OR;

The one that believes that the park staff/managers and Merlin can't really be seen as separate entities.

There's not two damn groups...

You can attribute the cuts to both. The fact remains that the park (as are all parks) is given an operations budget for the year. It's clearly been cut and therefore park management have had to decide where to throw the axe. Where's the budget set from? Merlin HQ.

I fail to see why you are so adamant that there is no difference between Towers upper management and Merlin upper management?

 

[Tom]

There are no culural/philosphical differences as people think there is. Why was/is Sub Terra such a flop if staff and managers at the park level want to do the best they can, but are supressed by Merlin?

 

[Scott]

There are no culural/philosphical differences as people think there is. Why was/is Sub Terra such a flop if staff and managers at the park level want to do the best they can, but are supressed by Merlin?

I'm sure there is though. There will be plenty of passionate staff at all of Merlin's theme parks. There will equally be people who toe the corporate line as much as possible.

Your question is quite simply answered though - staff and managers may want the best for the park and its attractions (I.e. Sub Terra) but can only do the best they can with the funds they're given.

Where do you think any money for capital expenditure has to come from and be agreed upon?

 

[jon81uk]

There are no culural/philosphical differences as people think there is. Why was/is Sub Terra such a flop if staff and managers at the park level want to do the best they can, but are supressed by Merlin?

sub-terra being a flop has very little to do with management. The public either don't know what it is so don't want to ride (why queue for an hour when the attraction might be boring) or have experienced it and can't see the value in doing it again. Adding actors increased the scare value, but still doesn't make it more thrilling on the third go. The Dungeons attractions have the same issue, they aren't worth experiancing more than once every 2 years really.

 

[Tom]

I think the argument has been exhausted now. The reality is that too many people are deluding themselves into thinking that if Merlin weren’t around everything would be perfect because the park staff and managers can do no wrong. I’ve tried to make people see why that’s unlikely to be the case. It is a fansite after all and I guess this level of rose-tintedness should be expected.

 

[Benzin]

I think the argument has been exhausted now. The reality is that too many people are deluding themselves into thinking that if Merlin weren’t around everything would be perfect because the park staff and managers can do no wrong. I’ve tried to make people see why that’s unlikely to be the case. It is a fansite after all and I guess this level of rose-tintedness should be expected.

The only park this forum could be said of being rose-tinted towards is Europa...

The question really lies with where does the buck stop? Regarding operational budget cuts, that is Merlin's management... I would highly doubt that Towers' lot would be content with losing 15-20% of their budget, but there's not much they can actually do until the evidence is there that the cuts are a stupid idea...

 

[James]

Who has said managers at Towers can do no wrong. The main argument is that Merlin limits Towers and its managers. I think the main point people are getting at is that some managers, who are very passionate about what they do, could do better if they had more to play with. That's not to say they would do a brilliant and amazing job and we would see Europa 2.0 in 5 years time. But it is to say that there have been great ideas over the years, great plans, great visions, but all of these great things are often refused, cut or overshadowed by some people sitting in an office in Dorset, who probably have never been to Towers and who are not interested in the long term or customer satisfaction. Merlin's current strategy may work now but I think these cuts are the start of when guests may start to realize they are not getting enough bang for their buck.

In the case of Sub-Terra, it was closed in 2012 and improved purely down to passionate staff at Towers gathering a case together in result of the poor and negative feedback from guests in March/early May 2012. We're lucky in that case Merlin listened and acted upon what staff at Towers gathered to prove it needed something done to it. Whether or not the improvements did make a better attraction is debatable, although it's certainly better than the mess it was on opening day in 2012.

 

[jon81uk]

I still think that before Merlin there was someone sitting in Tussauds head office (London?/Chessington?) making some of the budget decisions. I think the parks were run a bit more by themselves 10-15 years ago, you can see the resort theme parks have been brought together recently by the fact the food outlet branding is now unified (Pizza/Pasta, Fried Chicken Co, Burger Kitchen are all at Chessington & Towers).
I think if Tussauds hadn't bought Alton Towers 25 years ago the park would be very different, Tussauds Studios really developed the theming and of course John Wardley came up from Chessington and developed most of the decent 90s additions. Merlin then added in their expertese in making themed walkthrough attractions (Dungeons, sea life) and this led to Muntiny Bay, Sub Terra and other heavily themed stuff in the 2010s.
Where Tussauds/Merlin started going wrong with gimmicky attraction was the fixation on world firsts, Colossous, Thirteen, Smiler are all world firsts but are really better for it. Unfortunately Sub-Terra proves that style of marketing does work, as Sub-Terra didn't really draw the crowds (same thing for Swarm at Thorpe really).

 

[Coaster]

Without wanting to get too nit-picky there are several other rides which you haven't mentioned. Last time I was there a lot of the rides in Nickelodeon Land didn't open until 12:00, neither did the Carousel next to Big One. I'm not trying to defend Alton Towers staggered openings but I do feel that you're being very biased here since staggered openings are something which BPB have done for some years. Also just because a company makes a loss doesn't mean that they should be treated like a charity. BPB are still a money making business and even PBE members admit that a series of bad decisions may have been partly to blame for the park's current state of affairs. Let's also remember that Merlin are in massive amounts of debt too. The fact that BPB make a loss is irrelevant, neither park should take the p**s with excessive staggered openings and this season I would say that both parks are. The difference is that at Blackpool it's nothing new.

I'm not being biased, I've never agreed with the staggered openings at BPB, they frustrate me to no end but I'm just stating the fact that, currently, AT has worse staggered openings (although doing ERT could balance that).
Nor am I suggesting that the park be treated like a charity, but I'm just saying that if I was shown for the first time a park owned by a family making a loss, and then one owned by a multi million pound company, and asked to guess which one had staggered openings, I would guess at the loss making one.

 

[GaryH]

You have to ask where the money is going though. Merlin are probably making more money from their parks than ever before. The car parking charges bring in a small fortune, people staying in their resort hotels, the admission price, and gate numbers at AT haven't exactly been down. Thorpe last year was so busy they had to close the doors on several days, and Chessington was also max to capacity on a few occasions. The London Eye is also packed with tourists, as are the dungeons and Madam Tussauds.

They have also saved money by standardizing products across their theme parks, like food outlets, so if anything, Merlin should be making more money than in previous years from their theme parks. So, where is the money going? What is the justification for all these cuts, particularly at Alton which out of all their theme parks, is the leading one and the largest resort as such that they have.

 

[Dave]

I think the argument has been exhausted now. The reality is that too many people are deluding themselves into thinking that if Merlin weren’t around everything would be perfect because the park staff and managers can do no wrong. I’ve tried to make people see why that’s unlikely to be the case. It is a fansite after all and I guess this level of rose-tintedness should be expected.

The trouble you have in persuading some people is that a number of members know some of the managers & staff outside of the "enthusiast" social spectrum, the sense you get is one of doing the best they can with the budget they are given. Merlin have cut the ride operating budget by 15% . Even if this wasn't the case and the management at Towers where just naff if Merlin went and a good operator came in, management is changeable.

I don't think many people here see the park through rose-tinted glasses, and you can choose to believe such friends or not but thats that.

entertainment in the hotels dire,

Can't speak from experience but a few people who stayed over at the weekend said the new hotel entertainers where really good. But stuff like that is very subjective.