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Do UK parks have the worst queue times in Europe?

Should've implemented the funky spinning bag boxes on Swarm, like Merlin did on Raptor and Demonenenen.

But no, everything in the UK had to have a bag drop.
 
John said:
The issue with Swarm seems to be that they just don't open the gates for ages, I'm not convinced the closure of the bag room is entirely to blame for that one. I'd like to see the one on Saw close as it seems more of a hinderance than a help, Stealth runs fine without one.
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I think it is quite a big hinderance though, consider that on a normal ride such as nemesis people picking up bags have time to do so before the people leaving bags get there, they also are able to directly exit without interfering with the loading guests allowing for the gates to be open whilst exiting guests are still on the platform without causing interference (although oblivion I think it dose dramatically slow opps due to the width of the trains).

on swarm though as there is only one side to access they either have to hold the gates closed to wait for everyone to exit, which means if someone is messing with their bags holding up the people behind them it can dramatically increase loading times. or they have to open them with people leaving, and it causes a clash between people messing with bags, loading on to the train, trying to push past to get off the platform, etc.

if people didn't have to mess with their bags on the platform (for some reason people often will try to get stuff from their bags whilst on swarms platform) it could mean that the guest flow is much better (one stream of people offloading, another one of people onloading) with no stops for people to place / pickup their bags meaning there are no bunch ups of people.

Edit: I do agree that not all rides need baggage bays, it depends on 3 factors for me:
1: station design.
2: ease of access to baggage cage.
3: time train has to dispatch.

1: station design is essentially the guest flows around the baggage cage. for instance if the baggage cage is on one side everyone has to go there but, for instance nemesis and hyperia have good station design which allow for all the rows to have easy access to their own baggage cage, thus they don't really need a baggage bay.

2: the ease of access to baggage cage it may sound similar to previous, but I am more thinking difficulty in crossing the train / accessing it, rides such as oblivion and 13 can be quite hard to cross the row to get to the baggage cage, slowing operations but rides such as nemesis, galactica and hyperia due to the train design it is very easy to access the baggage cage (there is room to walk past someone on those trains).

3: time to dispatch is quite an easy one, if you need quick dispatches then even an efficient baggage cage will slow operations, but if you can send a train every 3 mins then you probably can get away with not having an efficient baggage cage system.

For swarm it mainly comes down to point 1, as the platform is quite cramped, and doesn't allow for the best loading / unloading, opposite to this I don't think mandrill needs a baggage bay, as its station design is much wider than swarms allowing for guest to easily walk past each other.
 
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The best way to do it is mandatory lockers if you want throughput. No loose articles allowed on the station, combined with Voltron style batching and you're away. Just don't do the silly RFID thing Voltron has on the trains and KISS principles always win. Even better if you can have similar staffing levels to say prime Olympia Looping with 1 staff to 4 riders. Allow 0 faff. Also have lights on the vehicles so staff know immediately which individual restraints aren't locked.
 
flyingguitar said:
I think it is quite a big hinderance though, consider that on a normal ride such as nemesis people picking up bags have time to do so before the people leaving bags get there, they also are able to directly exit without interfering with the loading guests allowing for the gates to be open whilst exiting guests are still on the platform without causing interference (although oblivion I think it dose dramatically slow opps due to the width of the trains).

on swarm though as there is only one side to access they either have to hold the gates closed to wait for everyone to exit, which means if someone is messing with their bags holding up the people behind them it can dramatically increase loading times. or they have to open them with people leaving, and it causes a clash between people messing with bags, loading on to the train, trying to push past to get off the platform, etc.

if people didn't have to mess with their bags on the platform (for some reason people often will try to get stuff from their bags whilst on swarms platform) it could mean that the guest flow is much better (one stream of people offloading, another one of people onloading) with no stops for people to place / pickup their bags meaning there are no bunch ups of people.

Edit: I do agree that not all rides need baggage bays, it depends on 3 factors for me:
1: station design.
2: ease of access to baggage cage.
3: time train has to dispatch.

1: station design is essentially the guest flows around the baggage cage. for instance if the baggage cage is on one side everyone has to go there but, for instance nemesis and hyperia have good station design which allow for all the rows to have easy access to their own baggage cage, thus they don't really need a baggage bay.

2: the ease of access to baggage cage it may sound similar to previous, but I am more thinking difficulty in crossing the train / accessing it, rides such as oblivion and 13 can be quite hard to cross the row to get to the baggage cage, slowing operations but rides such as nemesis, galactica and hyperia due to the train design it is very easy to access the baggage cage (there is room to walk past someone on those trains).

3: time to dispatch is quite an easy one, if you need quick dispatches then even an efficient baggage cage will slow operations, but if you can send a train every 3 mins then you probably can get away with not having an efficient baggage cage system.

For swarm it mainly comes down to point 1, as the platform is quite cramped, and doesn't allow for the best loading / unloading, opposite to this I don't think mandrill needs a baggage bay, as its station design is much wider than swarms allowing for guest to easily walk past each other.
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One thing I have noticed but not just Swarm but also Colossus, Hyperia and Nemesis is that the operators will open the gates very soon after people get off the train resulting in the previous train's people faffing with bags and getting in the way of oncoming riders.

I do wonder if delaying the gates opening about 5 seconds longer will help with operations better than rushing to open them.

Admittedly, it's not so much enthusiasts I'm seeing doing this but the general public. I'm guessing a lot of that is to do with better understanding of operations as enthusiasts who come to the park as part of their hobby than the average casual visitor who may come once in a while for a treat for a special fun day out.

I have noticed this happen at Phantasialand and Europa so I think it could be a thing that happens at parks anyway and not necessarily a Merlin specific problem.
 
owenstreet7 said:
One thing I have noticed but not just Swarm but also Colossus, Hyperia and Nemesis is that the operators will open the gates very soon after people get off the train resulting in the previous train's people faffing with bags and getting in the way of oncoming riders.

I do wonder if delaying the gates opening about 5 seconds longer will help with operations better than rushing to open them.

Admittedly, it's not so much enthusiasts I'm seeing doing this but the general public. I'm guessing a lot of that is to do with better understanding of operations as enthusiasts who come to the park as part of their hobby than the average casual visitor who may come once in a while for a treat for a special fun day out.

I have noticed this happen at Phantasialand and Europa so I think it could be a thing that happens at parks anyway and not necessarily a Merlin specific problem.
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I think this depends on the station design, nemesis and hyperia I don't think it would make much of a differnce due to its more open station design, but colosus I think it would be quite an advantage as you don't have people trying to get to the bags clashing with people trying to leave.

for some reason people only think they shouldn't have their phone on them once they are placing their bags onto the cage, and after the ride they decide to stand their getting their phones out of their bags whilst still in the station.
 
owenstreet7 said:
For the RIFD thing, isn't this where the ride host uses a card to close and open the restraints which they have on Arthur and Voltron at Europa.

I think that's rather impressive 🙂
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They were having some issues getting it to recognise. A button would be much more sensible and reliable.
 
Poisson said:
They were having some issues getting it to recognise. A button would be much more sensible and reliable.
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universal use the same system on hagrids I believe I guess it can't be a button as at least on hagrids there is no restraint sensor, the operator has to check them and thus if it was a button presumably a guest could just push a button and go round without a restraint.
 
Agree that design (of the ride/station) has a lot to do with it. Most don't have separate unload stations, bag drop before loading, etc. It's almost as if throughput is not planned, and reduced throughput leads to cumulatively growing queues.

Theme parks help no-one by nickel'n'dime-ing you to pay for an all-day locker - otherwise stashing bags before boarding means max throughput - Saw is an excellent example.

We can all dream.... 😉
 
Smiley said:
Agree that design (of the ride/station) has a lot to do with it. Most don't have separate unload stations, bag drop before loading, etc. It's almost as if throughput is not planned, and reduced throughput leads to cumulatively growing queues.

Theme parks help no-one by nickel'n'dime-ing you to pay for an all-day locker - otherwise stashing bags before boarding means max throughput - Saw is an excellent example.

We can all dream.... 😉
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the decision to have unload / load stations isn't one where the designers decided it was too expensive, most rides would probably be worse off as it very heavily depends on the block spacing of the ride, dispatch time required, number of trains etc.

an unload station can increase efficiency, but it heavily depends on the setup for multiple reasons, one is that the unloading and loading of a train can be done simultaneously with one station, but when an unload station is added you have to wait for a train to enter the unload station, then you have to unload the train and clear the platform, then you have to move the empty train to the load platform to load the train.

on rides with low train counts (nemesis, hyperia, galactica, wickerman) often you can end up with the unload platform being empty until the load platform is almost ready to leave, if not left then rarther than imediatly being able to load a train you have to wait for it to unload, then move it into load (can take like 5 secs) then load it

look at millennium force, when running on 2 trains it is much less efficient having 2 stations than just having one station, also look at rita running on one train, there is extra time because no one is getting on the ride, so you have to wait for everyone to leave the station, this effect is similar for many rides and can mean unless designed for unload platforms can decrease, or not impact capacity.

you can say why don't they add an unload but unless the ride has sufficient time to unload before moving into the loading platform it can be better to have one, also if the block spacing is minimum of 60 secs, there is no point in being able to dispatch a train every 30 secs, as it will just stack on the lift hill for 30 secs.


similarly if you are able to make a station design such that all rows can easily access a baggage cage and your dispatch time allows for such time then why have a separate bag drop / lockers? nemesis, hyperia etc use this system and it works well.

your point about the paid for lockers is alright, but with current park goers I don't think it would be much of an advantage as I think most people wouldn't to it so they can keep their phones in the queue, and as I said previously with a good station and good train, if there is enough gap between train departures then there isn't much point in doing so, if you have 50 secs each train cycle to unload, load and dispach a train and the station allows for it to be done in 40 secs with bags, there isn't much point in reducing it to 35secs as you will be waiting for the 15 secs anyway before you can dispach the train.
 
The duelling coasters at Universal Singapore have mandatory lockers at the entrance and a metal detector.

Whilst I’m sure this aids with throughput, to me the fact there was still a 60 minute queue meant it deterred me to the point of not even going on the ride.

Can’t imagine this would be well received in the UK!
 
Bowser said:
The duelling coasters at Universal Singapore have mandatory lockers at the entrance and a metal detector.

Whilst I’m sure this aids with throughput, to me the fact there was still a 60 minute queue meant it deterred me to the point of not even going on the ride.

Can’t imagine this would be well received in the UK!
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It's why you design it like FLY or Voltron, where the lockers are under 10 minutes, usually under 5, from boarding.
 
Poisson said:
It's why you design it like FLY or Voltron, where the lockers are under 10 minutes, usually under 5, from boarding.
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That is honestly what some of the US parks seem to get wrong honestly.

I think it's better to either offer bag storage on station, have free lockers near the station or a baggage hold.

Mandating paid lockers before you get into the queue literally sucks the life out of a queue in my view.
 
The VelociCoaster locker design is a lot better than some of Universal’s earlier coasters. That one is more like FLY or Voltron in having the lockers close to boarding.

Universal’s lockers are also free, unlike the ones in the likes of Six Flags, Cedar Fair or SeaWorld.
 
owenstreet7 said:
That is honestly what some of the US parks seem to get wrong honestly.

I think it's better to either offer bag storage on station, have free lockers near the station or a baggage hold.

Mandating paid lockers before you get into the queue literally sucks the life out of a queue in my view.
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yeah, the one thing I always hear from Americans is about how our baggage storage is free, I don't get why the US dose it the other way, it is just asking for people to take their lose articles onto a ride.

Matt N said:
The VelociCoaster locker design is a lot better than some of Universal’s earlier coasters. That one is more like FLY or Voltron in having the lockers close to boarding.

Universal’s lockers are also free, unlike the ones in the likes of Six Flags, Cedar Fair or SeaWorld.
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yeah, I believe a lot of universals later stuff is much better, althuogh rip rodcket I think was the worse you had to put it in a locker (free) before entering the like 60+ min queue, and there was metal detectors and no space for a phone or smaller articles at the station (unlike at places where there is normally a small basket for phones)
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
Are you familiar with the concept of capitalism? The Americans are rather fond of it, extremely so.
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I meant more I don't understand how you get to the point of having to pay a couple dollars essentially to ride each ride, or have someone sit out and not be able to ride it, surly it adds up, like $2 per locker, if you get on 10 rides you end up spending like $20, surly there is a point where people just don't go.

my main though though is that you are just asking for people to bring phones and stuff onto the ride and I feel like it is quite a large liability as there is often no option to put the phone down some where once in the station, and in the place where a lawsuit is done for every possible reason I think they could make a good argument that if something happens the park is partially liable as there was no option to put the phone anywhere else.
 
flyingguitar said:
I meant more I don't understand how you get to the point of having to pay a couple dollars essentially to ride each ride, or have someone sit out and not be able to ride it, surly it adds up, like $2 per locker, if you get on 10 rides you end up spending like $20, surly there is a point where people just don't go.
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It's a revenue stream for the park. Why give something away for free, when people will pay for it? That's the American / Capitalist way.

Thank you for purchasing a $1,000 phone made out of precious and breakable materials. Wanna protect it? Here's a piece of additional plastic... It's only an extra $40.

It's not really any different from having to purchase a photo at the end of each ride, or selling you a rain / water jacket before soaking you, or charging you for parking when there really isn't any other alternative to getting there.

Theme parks aren't built to entertain you, that's just a happy byproduct. They exist to rinse you for as much money as you're willing to part with.
flyingguitar said:
my main though though is that you are just asking for people to bring phones and stuff onto the ride and I feel like it is quite a large liability as there is often no option to put the phone down some where once in the station, and in the place where a lawsuit is done for every possible reason I think they could make a good argument that if something happens the park is partially liable as there was no option to put the phone anywhere else.
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The liability is yours, never the park's. There is an option, it's a paid locker outside the ride. If you decide to go on a ride with a loose article in your possession, which then falls and breaks (or worse, hits someone), you are liable. The park has warned you, the park has given you the option of paying for a locker to store your possessions. The park would only be liable if they encouraged you to bring on loose articles, and didn't warn you that doing so could lead to the items becoming lost, broken and doing so was at your own risk.

I wouldn't be surprised if an American park also charged a "retrieval fee" for every item which falls out and lands in a ride area.
 
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