Does the “comedy roast” have a future?

[Matt N]

Hi guys. One of the biggest news stories of the past few days has stemmed from the Oscars on Sunday, where Will Smith had an altercation with Chris Rock on live TV.

For those of you that haven’t heard, Rock made a joke about Smith’s wife’s alopecia while on stage presenting an award, which resulted in Smith going up onto the stage and punching Rock before shouting at him “You keep my wife’s name out of your [fudge]ing mouth”. ([fudge] is paraphrasing a far worse word)

While this story has sent shockwaves through news and media circles, I noticed this particularly interesting opinion piece in iNews where the writer stated that the altercation between Smith and Rock should mark the end of the “comedy roast”: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/will-smiths-oscars-slap-signal-end-of-comedy-roast-1544203

So my question to you today is; do you think the “comedy roast” has a future? Do you think it should have a future?

Personally, I’ll admit that I’m not entirely sure it does. Rightly or wrongly, the world is more sensitive than ever with regard to these types of things, and I think there is a very fine line between “banter” and bullying that comedians are having an increasingly tough job toeing. Many “comedy roasts” go so far that they are being deemed downright offensive to either a person or an entire group of people, and I know that Rock is far from the only comedian who has experienced repercussions to more hard-hitting personal roasts they’ve made.

Personally, I’ve always found that type of humour isn’t a type I personally find funny. I apologise if this makes me sound overly sensitive, but it always makes me feel more uncomfortable than amused. That might be because I’m what most would consider very weird and have had insults directed my way under the guise of comedy in the past (and plain, undisguised insults as well), but I’ll admit that I would take that type of thing to heart if I was in Smith’s wife’s position, even though I know Rock likely didn’t intend to be truly offensive. I’ll admit, however, that I appear to be in a minority there; most I know seem to find insult comedy hilarious.

But what do you think? Do you think insult comedy has a future, or deserves to?

 

[pluk]

Theres a mixture of things going on here.

A 'comedy roast' is one in which the roasted is in on the joke, invites the situation, has an opportunity to respond. Jimmy Carrs famous roast of Pete Davidson is an excellent example of this. The joke is clever and while shocking it is very very funny.


(Davidsons father was a firefighter who dies in the twin towers)


What Chris Rock did was not that. He threw an insult based on someone's physical appearance that they have due to a medical condition. When she wasn't expecting it, in front of her family and peers. With no right to reply. That's not roast comedy, that's punching down comedy. The joke was poor and it's not very funny.


Cruel comedy will always be around, because jokes need a victim. It's context and how personal that is that is problematic. The comedy roast will continue as long as there are willing participants.

 

[JAperson]

Warning this is a longer post than I intended but I wanted to cover all the points Matt made and make some of my own on this subject.
People like different forms of comedy, I like the odd 'roast' and in the UK we do a lot of self-deprecating humour so someone else saying someone you might take the mick out of yourself for should be fine. I think in the US they have a completely different humour pallet and comedy roasts have to be very careful.
Making a joke that people know is a joke. whether they find it personally funny or not, just not have consequences as it's simply meant as a joke. This especially applies when a 'comedian' is doing a 'comedy' performance. Everyone likes different types of humour and that's fine but they should be able to respect the different sense of humour.

@Matt N you having different comedy tastes doesn't make you overly-sensitive and there is no need to apologise. I used to struggle with these sorts of jokes, but we all have different comedy tastes that also definitely change with age too. You have a different sense of humour and that's fine. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning but @Thameslink Rail for example has a completely different sense of humour, which is based on crap jokes that are funny because they shouldn't be funny. Some people like 'dirty' jokes some don't, it's perfectly normal to have different senses of humour and it makes the world of comedy more interesting for it.

I think there's a big cultural difference in countries and even area's. Here where I live in the midlands self-deprecation and taking the mick out of your mates is perfectly normal and usually the preferred form of humour. Everybody knows its a joke and that nobody is being serious. I sometimes struggle to get people are joking but once I know it's a joke and a comment wasn't meant to hurt me I'm fine with it, because I recognise that it was simply meant to be humorous. Does that mean that some insults have been hidden in 'humour'? yes. I've experienced it before, when I was at school when I had a group of people I considered friends who were actually bullying me but blaming it on 'banter' which eventually ended with me being in bad state. I just didn't know what was humour and what was an insult anymore. After a few years of thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that what they were doing was simply bullying. They were laughing at the misery they were causing me rather than a joke aimed at my way. I find it hard to open up about this sort of thing but I thought this subject is so important that my own personal experiences were needed for this discussion.

Is there a line? Yes, however it's impossible to define. I'd say that if you are continually making jokes that somebody finds offensive and they've asked you to stop they you should not direct them jokes at said person or make them in that's persons company. The issue stand-up comedians have is that they don't know every person in the audiences backgrounds, so when you are watching a comedy performance you should know and be prepared for jokes that might make you feel uncomfortable. I went to a comedy show once where I became the but of the jokes, at only 14. The comedian made plenty of jokes at my expense asking me questions. Did I feel comfortable with all the jokes? Probably not, but I knew it was a comedy performance and I laughed along.


In terms of what actually happened I have feelings on both sides, the joke Chris Rock made was insensitive and perhaps rude, especially if we knew Will Smith's wife had alopecia, if he didn't it wasn't. Do I think Rock meant to be mean? No, he was doing a comedy roast and that's perfectly normal, he didn't even make jokes that were that bad. Rickey Gervais made far worse jokes when he hosted one of these award shows and it was hilarious. Do I understand why Smith got upset? yes, it's his wife, a person he loves, after all. Do I think he should've responded with violence? Absolutely not! Do I think his oscar should be revoked? No, then they'd be opening a can of worms that I really don't think need to be let out. There are plenty of celebrities who've done awful things who still have there oscars. They'd have to form some sort of oscar court and decide what actions were bad enough to revoke said oscars. They are better staying well out of it.

 

[rob666]

In my eyes, Rock was a nasty bully, and deserved (never condone violence you bad man) the slap.
The one time somebody was rude about my wife in a similar style, my wife insisted I didn't give him a slap.
I regret doing what I was told.

 

[jon81uk]

What happened at the Oscars and a roast are incredibly different things.
At a roast the roastee and the roasters know that they are there to be ridiculed, the jokes are often scripted and people know the sort of thing to expect. Although someones personal circumstances and lifestyle might get joked about or their attributes (camp, butch, fat, skinny, good-looking, ginger) roasts don't normally joke about medical conditions or disabilities.
Whereas Chris Rock joked about someone who has shaved their head to deal with a medical condition (not simply old age baldness). He was also there to present an award, he wasn't hosting or there to roast anyone.
Ricky Gervais has often used roast-style jokes when hosting the golden globes, but again being host is different and he didn't joke about disability or medical condition.

Also if your taste in comedy is you don't like roasts, you can choose not to watch a roast, or with the Ricky Gervais example you may choose not to watch the Golden Globes to avoid him. Whereas if you tune in for the Oscars you may not expect to see Chris Rock joke about Alopecia.

 

[JAperson]

What happened at the Oscars and a roast are incredibly different things.
At a roast the roastee and the roasters know that they are there to be ridiculed, the jokes are often scripted and people know the sort of thing to expect. Although someones personal circumstances and lifestyle might get joked about or their attributes (camp, butch, fat, skinny, good-looking, ginger) roasts don't normally joke about medical conditions or disabilities.
Whereas Chris Rock joked about someone who has shaved their head to deal with a medical condition (not simply old age baldness). He was also there to present an award, he wasn't hosting or there to roast anyone.
Ricky Gervais has often used roast-style jokes when hosting the golden globes, but again being host is different and he didn't joke about disability or medical condition.

Exactly this! This is what I was trying to get across, with my dreadful literacy skills. There;s a difference between the event at the oscars and most comedy roasts.

 

[Matt.GC]

That might be because I’m what most would consider very weird and have had insults directed my way under the guise of comedy in the past (and plain, undisguised insults as well)

But Matt, what you're describing there with what you've been through isn't roasting or jokes. It's bullying. As has already been said, a major difference is if the participants are willing or not.

In true i newspaper style, where they often add 2 and 2 together to make 5 so they can go on some sort of goodie goodie crusade/tangent, that article also misses the point. What Rock wasn't doing is participating in a roast, he was taking a cheap shot at Jayda's appearance, unprovoked unsophisticated. Of course attendees of the Oscars know they'll be in for some sort of a piss taking, but this was just silly. If you compare this to what Ricky Gervais did with his controversial stand the last time he hosted, he made very dark jokes that had an actual serious kind of meaning behind them that I think actually embarrassed the whole auditorium.

But Gervais was going after behaviours and actions to tell risky jokes that offended the rich and famous (fully guilty of much of what he was saying). What Chris Rock did was "someone looks different to the rest of us, isn't that funny? LOL".

 

[JAperson]

But Matt, what you're describing there with what you've been through isn't roasting or jokes. It's bullying. As has already been said, a major difference is if the participants are willing or not.

This is completely right, I shared some of my own experiences above to try and explain this. Some people use comedy as cover so to speak, what they were doing to me and from what you've said you too, is bullying, when they are flying insults around and everybody's laughing but you then it's not comedy. When they are laughing at you and not with you it's not comedy and when you've asked them to stop and they don't it's not comedy.

I thought it was banter, I'd convinced myself that these people were my friends, because I had nobody else, nobody to turn to. They weren't, they were bullies, it wasn't banter it was being cruel. It was upsetting me but I did nothing because I'd convinced myself it was banter and that's what everyone would pass it off as. I also was stuck in the trap myself, because I thought it was banter I'd say things back, things that if I told someone they could've used against me. The one time I threatened to go and tell someone they reminded me of things I'd said (things I regret saying but we all make mistakes) I couldn't tell, I couldn't do nothing.
Don't let these people use comedy as a shield. There can be humour that's directed at people that's funny, I enjoy that sort of humour but only when you are laughing too.

 

[JAperson]

Sorry for the double post:
Just wanted to apologise if my last post is a bit deep, not really sure it was necessary for the discussion.

 

[Matt N]

Sorry for the double post:
Just wanted to apologise if my last post is a bit deep, not really sure it was necessary for the discussion.

No need to apologise; I think it does build into the wider discussion, and there’s nothing wrong with sharing your own experiences, in my opinion.

 

[shakey]

In my eyes, Rock was a nasty bully, and deserved (never condone violence you bad man) the slap.

Well I don't often disagree with you my Lankastrian friend, but Will Smiths reaction was at best - over the top. And at worst - a physical assault that he should have been arrested for.

I would actually applaud Chris Rock for his restraint after being attacked.

The joke was in bad taste and I suppose the individual nature of the joke makes it worse but you cannot react the way Will Smith did.

If it was a female actor that made a similar remark would Will Smith have done the same? And if he did would he have received any sympathy whatsoever? Absolutely not and it would have ended his career on the spot.






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[pluk]

If it was a female actor that made a similar remark would Will Smith have done the same? And if he did would he have received any sympathy whatsoever? Absolutely not and it would have ended his career on the spot.

Not to condone the violence but along a similar hypothetical vein, if it was Jada herself who went and slapped him would she be getting half the heat Will is?

 

[shakey]

Not to condone the violence but along a similar hypothetical vein, if it was Jada herself who went and slapped him would she be getting half the heat Will is?

I am guessing in that particular scenario it would have been little more than a minor news item and maybe even looked upon as funny.

Mainly because it is still seen as socially acceptable for a woman to assault a man, especially after an insult. But that's a whole different argument.

Going back to the actual incident I think you have to distinguish between a deliberate attempt to cause hurt and distress, and an attempt at humour (even if it is in bad taste).

In Chris Rocks case I don't think he was deliberately trying to cause any distress. Unless there is something between the two actors we are unaware of.

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[RicketyCricket]

No problem with Will Smith slapping him tbh. If you're going to humiliate someone due to an illness that is out of their control, in front of millions of people then it should be accepted that there may be consequences.

 

[rob666]

Chris "The Bully" Rock deliberately caused hurt and distress though shakey!
Picking on peoples personal health issues from on stage, with no prospect of a right to reply, he got what he deserved, and summary justice was publicly served on the night.
Notice...no police involvement unless a complaint is made by the "victim"...despite the evidence provided to half a billion people in clear tv images.
And they have previous shakey...from earlier comments, both on and off stage.
He got a deserved slap, and he will revel in the publicity from it...he already is.
Be embarrassingly rude to a lady publicly, for no valid reason, expect a slap from the partner.
Simple.
No vicious prolonged assault with weapons, just a deserved slap for rudeness.
"That was the greatest night in the history of television"...What an egotistic tosser...more important than man stepping foot on the moon?
Only in your own sad eyes mate.

 

[delta79]

I think @pluk has explained it best
There is a time and a place, with consent.

Personally I think Will should of verbally called Chris out for Roasting Jade and the damage comedy of that vain can cause when used incorrectly. Then got Chris to apologise to Jade.



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[shakey]

Personally I think Will should of verbally called Chris out for Roasting Jade and the damage comedy of that vain can cause when used incorrectly. Then got Chris to apologise to Jade.

I don't know anything about the people concenerd so just looking at it in isolation, but I think the verbal option would have been a far better response in hindsight.

It wouldn't be an awards ceromany without controversy though, in a room full of overpaid ego's.

Think I will leave it there.

Don't want to be chased out of Madam Crevettes by @rob666 . Who's round is it by the way ?

 

[rob666]

Going out to the coast shortly shakey, and there is nothing I would love more than to argue the toss with you in Crevettes, instead of crawling round the arcades looking for a decent pinball machine!
And I can't remember my breakfast, let alone whose round it is.
And on a personal level, via pet hates, you don't half look like your dad!

 

[shakey]

Going out to the coast shortly shakey, and there is nothing I would love more than to argue the toss with you in Crevettes, instead of crawling round the arcades looking for a decent pinball machine!
And I can't remember my breakfast, let alone whose round it is.
And on a personal level, via pet hates, you don't half look like your dad!

Always better to look more like your dad than looking more like the milkman

Definitely need to get back to pleasure beach soon, recovery is going well so don't see why I can't hit the rides again. May have to give Nash, Infusion and Revolution a wide birth though.