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Electric Cars - The Future?

Electric cars certainly ain't the future. Rishi Sunak might think so, but the experts don't. Why?

To start, Space:

Electric cars offer no solution to creating additional capacity on our roads. They're an innovation that's somewhat more environmentally friendly (notice the caveat) but the M6 will only ever have so many lanes. Why not add more lanes you ask? Because adding more lanes creates "induced demand" over time, which takes you back to square one. "Just one more lane and I'll fix traffic!" - said every US highway engineer, yet look at the problems they face. Not only this, but by and large electric cars are bigger than their petrol/diesel counterparts, attributed to the additional space required to house the battery, and the added weight, which brings me onto point no. 2:

Road Maintenance:

With bigger, heavier cars guess what that means for the roadway? That's right, more of those dreaded potholes! You can already see this today, particularly in inner-city areas where maintenance budgets are lower than that of motorways/dual carriageways. The sheer weight of the vehicles which can be attributed to the battery, puts extra pressure on the road surface. Okay so the fix is we spend more on road upkeep? Alright sure, but we're now adding more to our carbon emissions output to a)produce the materials, b)transport them and c)install them.

Energy Source & Charging Infrastructure

Your car is powered by electricity, great! That's definitely better than the diesel/petrol alternative, but that energy has yo be generated somewhere. We're in the paradoxical situation of wanting to electrify everything, but not yet living up to our responsibilities to produce electricity sustainably. If we want to provide electricity for all these vehicles, we're going to have to accept out views being disturbed by wind turbines, or local fields being turned into solar farms. Or we invest in nuclear, but that's a whole new can of worms!

Better Alternatives:

Cars are inherently a very poor use of space. More often than not a 5 seater car only has one person in it. Compare this to a bus where most seats are filled. An even better use of space is cycling. Now I accept this isn't for everyone and is most definitely limited to shorter trips, but nevertheless for short journeys is far more efficient. I love to use this graphic below when describing this usage of space:

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This isn't to say cars don't have their place. If you live rurally then chances are your local area is never going to have the critical mass to support a public transport system and you're probably not going to want to cycle 10 miles to your nearest town centre!

That said, in most part this country is densely populated, and with the right investment in sustainable transport infrastructure: cycling lanes, buses, car-sharing clubs, and crucially trains for long-distance travel, we can move a far greater amount of people using far less energy, far less space and reach net-zero targets.

Take HS2. Terribly marketed, as if speed is all people care about. In fact it was designed to take the fast trains of our (very extensive) existing railway network giving them their own pair of tracks, thereby freeing up space on the busiest mainlines for for local services so people can actually rely on sustainable alternatives to cars travel, and actually find a seat! Not only this, but it was to also free up space to move freight by rail, which again is far more efficient than by road (and creates more road space without the need for expansion which is no solution anyway) Obviously our car and helicopter obsessed prime minister ditched it in an act of short-sighted thinking and failed to acknowledge advice from experts. In a great many cases people drive because they have to, not because they want to. Give them a more attractive, reliable, sustainable alternative and more often than not they'll switch!

So all in it's less a question of "are electric cars the future?" and more "what role should electric cars have in our future?"

We have mountains of evidence to show car travel is the most inefficient and environmentally damaging method of travel (including electric cars) and we have options to invest in sustainable, efficient alternatives where applicable. Doing so is nothing more than a political choice. For large infrastructure projects like HS2, funding comes from a "grant in aid" to the government, which essentially means we borrow from ourselves (The Bank of England) against national debt, on the basis of seeing economic returns on the project that money is borrowed for. Contrary to what this government has been pumping out, you cannot "reallocate" those funds to spend on other things.

To sign off, with this being within an Alton Towers geared forum, it'd be criminal for me not to mention what alternatives here might be:

"People drive to the park because it's easy and there's no alternative" - mostly true, with the exception of a few coach services and those brave enough to risk missing a bus connection at Stoke station!

Guess what though? The park sits on a disused railway line that if reopened, would not only benefit visitors to the park (from built-up areas of the North West and East Midlands) but also the wider network, by creating extra capacity between two major urban agglomerations and making things more reliable on existing lines (similar to HS2's role)

If reopened, huge swathes of urban Britain would be able to reach the park by rail (perhaps with a change of trains) and it might be very wise to create "Park & Ride" facilities at nearby nodes of the motorway network (Meaning visitors that have no choice but to drive need not navigate the extensive country roads to access the park, but perhaps park in a multi-storey and take a free, regular shuttle bus from there to the park) By investing in both these options, not only are we making things more sustainable environmentally, but actually our favourite Alton Towers would stand to gain by opening up room for park expansion onto areas currently covered in surface car parking, which is an incredibly poor utilisation of space.

It's all about getting out of the car brain mindset we've been so used to, and thinking about the bigger picture long-term.

Marshy.

As an EV owner and someone who’s banged the drum for Alton station for a long time seems like a great point to jump in.

Agree with EVs don’t resolve the capacity issue, and absolutely id like to see the UK move to a “your home is your power station” model or community solar farms and turbines.

Nevertheless in terms of Alton Station your absolutely right, it should be in the long term plans of the park, council and area to take traffic off the road. If local residents want less traffic then this should be the solution. It benefits them, it benefits Alton as it opens them up to more visitors and allows them potentially use more space, and it would be completely unique and charming.

Practicalities wise, needless to say it’s complicated. There are already alleged plans afoot to reopen the “Stoke to Leek” line, this would be a WCML connection from Stoke station to Leekbrook Junction. This is a significant undertaking, will more than likely never happen and is 5 years away minimum.

At Leekbrook junction the track heads in 3 directions
1) Towards Caldon Lowe, past peak wildlife park and to Caldon Quarry where it has to terminate
2) Towards Leek where an expansion/station is already due to open this year
3 Towards the Churnet Valley where the line currently stops at Froghall but could continue on through Oakamoor tunnel, Oakamoor and onto Alton. The trackbed continues on to Denstone where it terminates just after Denstone station as a house was built on the line.

The complications:
1) The track from Stoke to Leekbrook is owned by Network rail and it is meant to be a line of national interest due to access to the aforementioned Caldon Quarry in times of war. It is meant to be “openable” in 48 hours. Anyone who knows this line knows this is not the case
2) The trackbed south of Froghall to Alton is owned by Staffordshire county council, and sadly the track was lifted not that long ago. There are some very wealthy, old residents in Oakamoor/Alton who strangely would fight tooth and nail to oppose any expansion.
3) Alton station building is owned by the national trust, but the Alton bridge building just after it (black boarded up windows) is actually owned by Alton Towers themselves and IMO would make a great TTC.

The options:
1) When leek station opens this year, look at options for expanding the line from Froghall to Alton, and use Leek as a park and ride location
2) Expand past Froghall to Alton and on to Denstone and use that as a park and ride location too (serving A50 traffic)
3) Do the above and wait for the eventual link back up with the mainline at Stoke, but that is years and years away.

As normal austerity, the politicians, vested interest and the elderly have failed to grasp and incredible and unique opportunity. The chance for serious, sustainable growth in a unique setting that only the UK can offer.

The thought of getting off a train, in a crisp October morning seeing Alton castle on the hill sells tickets alone for me. Nowhere else in the world can offer that history.

But alas, despite wishing this into existence for over a decade, common sense won’t prevail
 
Getting guests from Alton Station to Alton Towers will still be a pain in the neck unless the park gets permission to widen or relocate the main road from the station to the entrance. The hill is too steep for most transport as well.
 
As an EV owner and someone who’s banged the drum for Alton station for a long time seems like a great point to jump in.

Agree with EVs don’t resolve the capacity issue, and absolutely id like to see the UK move to a “your home is your power station” model or community solar farms and turbines.

Nevertheless in terms of Alton Station your absolutely right, it should be in the long term plans of the park, council and area to take traffic off the road. If local residents want less traffic then this should be the solution. It benefits them, it benefits Alton as it opens them up to more visitors and allows them potentially use more space, and it would be completely unique and charming.

Practicalities wise, needless to say it’s complicated. There are already alleged plans afoot to reopen the “Stoke to Leek” line, this would be a WCML connection from Stoke station to Leekbrook Junction. This is a significant undertaking, will more than likely never happen and is 5 years away minimum.

At Leekbrook junction the track heads in 3 directions
1) Towards Caldon Lowe, past peak wildlife park and to Caldon Quarry where it has to terminate
2) Towards Leek where an expansion/station is already due to open this year
3 Towards the Churnet Valley where the line currently stops at Froghall but could continue on through Oakamoor tunnel, Oakamoor and onto Alton. The trackbed continues on to Denstone where it terminates just after Denstone station as a house was built on the line.

The complications:
1) The track from Stoke to Leekbrook is owned by Network rail and it is meant to be a line of national interest due to access to the aforementioned Caldon Quarry in times of war. It is meant to be “openable” in 48 hours. Anyone who knows this line knows this is not the case
2) The trackbed south of Froghall to Alton is owned by Staffordshire county council, and sadly the track was lifted not that long ago. There are some very wealthy, old residents in Oakamoor/Alton who strangely would fight tooth and nail to oppose any expansion.
3) Alton station building is owned by the national trust, but the Alton bridge building just after it (black boarded up windows) is actually owned by Alton Towers themselves and IMO would make a great TTC.

The options:
1) When leek station opens this year, look at options for expanding the line from Froghall to Alton, and use Leek as a park and ride location
2) Expand past Froghall to Alton and on to Denstone and use that as a park and ride location too (serving A50 traffic)
3) Do the above and wait for the eventual link back up with the mainline at Stoke, but that is years and years away.

As normal austerity, the politicians, vested interest and the elderly have failed to grasp and incredible and unique opportunity. The chance for serious, sustainable growth in a unique setting that only the UK can offer.

The thought of getting off a train, in a crisp October morning seeing Alton castle on the hill sells tickets alone for me. Nowhere else in the world can offer that history.

But alas, despite wishing this into existence for over a decade, common sense won’t prevail

Absolutely on the money Ash, shouldn't have said it better! Common sense is lacking, and yet as you've demonstrated, in the case of AT alone there are an array of sustainable alternatives that benefit all parties we really should be looking into.

Maybe to make a start (re AT) it'd be sensible to focus on Park & Rides at strategic locations to limit the traffic through the local area (and prevent people getting lost on country roads!) and prove that in fact people will still travel to the park, even if it means taking a bus transfer. Should help kick network rail into gear and complete the full line restoration with AT acting as part of the business case.

Re Alton Station and its distance from the park itself, again I'd lay on shuttle buses direct to the entrance. It's a short trip (3 minutes) so shouldn't require too many buses to move the volume of people. Alright it's not the monorail in terms of escapism, but it's eminently sensible to save a 30min walk up a steep hill. It would of course require infrastructure interventions to get the buses down to platform level, along with a design and access statement, but in respect to reducing traffic through Alton, you'd hope most residents would be pro rather than anti helping it get through planning.
 
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In terms of access it seems reasonably straight forward.

You’ve got to get people from the Alton station to the gatehouse the other side of the road…

You either walk people underneath the Farley Lane bridge so they are on the “Alton” side of the road, then send them back to enter the grounds via the gatehouse. (The internal road heads towards the flag tower and x sector) or build another platform after the Farley lane bridge and so the same.

The building to the bottom if the picture is owned by Alton as is the surrounding land so would make a great ticketing/guest services area.
 
Essentially what we need is long term investment in alternative transport, which has been lacking for decades under successive governments.

We had a comprehensive rail network that connected parts of the country that not many people haven't even heard of by the time it was nationalised after the second world war.

It all kind of mirrors the journey this failing country has been on since 1945 - sticking plasters, turmoil, and generally pretending to be Billy Big Bollocks, even though the latter is no longer true in any way shape or form.

The promise of a "New Jerusalem" saw free healthcare at the point of use from cradle to grave, comprehensive school education, state pensions, council houses, and the general welfare state. All of these have limped from crisis to crisis in recent decades, as we struggle to forge an identity of what kind of a country we want to live in.

Germany and Japan, the most prominent "losers" of the second world war, used copious amounts of cash and support from the allies to rebuild their countries afterwards. We borrowed off of the economically booming Americans to rebuild our shattered country afterwards, and we've struggled to crack on with a coherent direction ever since.

Upon nationalisation, British rail inherited a comprehensive, but broken and old fashioned Victorian rail network. One of the best in the world by design, but aging, in need of modernisation, and significant investment. The decision was made to spend the money on catching up with the Americans and Europeans by embracing the car and updating our ancient roads by building the motorway network. The motorway network was well designed and engineered, but ultimately never finished, and outdated once the Beeching Axe fell.

If you read some of Dr Beechings report, it actually makes perfect sense for the time. Public transport was the past. The "American dream" of "freedom" that car ownerships gave you was the future. In a more sparsely populated country, who wouldn't want to get into their own transport device and travel wherever they want, whenever they want?

Like everything else in this country, it's all half baked, ignorant of reality, and vulnerable to change in the game of political football. Some railway lines and stations closed during Beeching were re-opened just 20-30 years later, and this carries on to this day. This is despite having a government in the 80's and 90's who were very pro car and anti public transport. Most of the road building was either scrapped or downgraded, and there was much more of a public focus on environmental damage. Nevertheless, projects like the M25 and M3 were cut back, compromised, and forced through regardless, and rail services were privatised.

New Labour tried to counteract this by pretending that everyone in the country was able to enjoy the level of public transport provision that London enjoyed, and embarked on a campaign of bullying and pricing motorists off the road, whilst failing to offer a substantial alternative.

Now we have a prime minister who is the political equivalent of erectile disfunction, cancelling public transport investment and talking about pot holes to try and appease knuckle dragger voters and back benchers to avoid an absolute drubbing at the next election. They've bet the house on EV's for years, and the short termism is staggeringly incompetent. Meanwhile, the Viagra being prescribed in the form of the leader of the opposition, can't currently provide is with any answers either.

The way I see it, we'll be left with Aramark style public transport - or choked up roads with broken down, heavy, unsustainably built, inefficient EV's, that don't have a realistic infrastructure behind them and are mostly charged with fossil fuel generated electricity.

The easy answer in the 1950's -1990's was to just build more roads. The answer through the 2000's was to demonise motorists and build bus lanes. The answer now appears to be to pretend that everyone can just go out and buy an EV, go to the Winchester, have a pint, and wait for this whole thing to blow over.
 
I'm still not sold on EVs or Thier environment credentials. I still feel like there a better solution thanks what's being offered and have too many drawbacks which include:

Crushing depreciation
The weight of EVs ruining the roads
Estimated range Vs actual range
Variable charging issues depending on brand, model and availability
Unless your charging from home they are not even that cheap to run
Cost of maintenance can be expensive
 
I don't understand the weight thing. I have a Model Y with a curb weight of 1930kg and my next door neighbour has a thirsty petrol BMW X3 whose curb weight is somewhere between 1900-2100kg ie essentially exactly the same. So why is my car destroying the road and his isn't?

Plus, you know, the absolute glut of delivery vans, buses, HGVs etc all of which weigh way more than my supposedly road-destroying EV.
 
Perhaps they are referring to “cars” rather than SUVs. I don’t know but perhaps an ice car is lighter compared to an electric car maybe?
 
Perhaps they are referring to “cars” rather than SUVs. I don’t know but perhaps an ice car is lighter compared to an electric car maybe?
It's one of those things that people see and just regurgitate without 5 minutes of research I think. Nissan Leaf and Vauxhall Astra are pretty much the same for example. And depending on how many people you have in the car the differences become even more marginal.

Same as the maintenance thing, other than a puncture in 6 years of owning two of the things my car has been to Tesla for maintenance issues exactly 0 times. My old Ford Focus conversely was in and out of Ford for things like it was going out of fashion. Your mileage may vary of course; none disputes that the HV battery will cost a fortune if it goes but the same could be said about replacing an engine.
 
I did read that EVs can last much longer mileages due to less moving parts. I read somewhere a Tesla had hit 300k on the same battery with no breakdowns.
This is probably true but there are questions as to what happens when the battery is out of warranty.


I'll be sticking with petrol for the foreseeable I'm still not convinced this is the technology of the future
 
Electric motors are the future. But until they perfect hydrogen fuel cells (and the refueling infrastructure to back them up) battery powered cars will never compete with the old suck-squeeze-bang-blow for practicality.
 
Perhaps they are referring to “cars” rather than SUVs. I don’t know but perhaps an ice car is lighter compared to an electric car maybe?

Like for like electric cars do weigh more than their petrol equivalent, that's indisputable. Equally cars have generally become much bigger (see the plethora os SUV's) so i think it's more the overall move towards heavier vehicles that is an issue rather than one fuel type being to blame.
 
Like for like electric cars do weigh more than their petrol equivalent, that's indisputable. Equally cars have generally become much bigger (see the plethora os SUV's) so i think it's more the overall move towards heavier vehicles that is an issue rather than one fuel type being to blame.

Pretty much this.

Cars have increased dramatically in size over recent years, namely due to safety requirements around “crumple zones” which theoretically makes you safer should you be in an accident.

However it’s also very useful for manufacturers, as they can claim they have to charge more because the car is bigger, and the oil/gas lobby who produce the fuel. A bigger car means a bigger tank/battery.

Electric cars are sort of an exacerbation of an existing problem. They’re definitely better for the environment no question, but they aren’t the future. Instead, sustainable public/private transportation is, whether that be a bike, car shares, buses, trams or trains.

Cars will always have a place, since realistically, you can’t expect everyone to live within walking distance of public transport (especially in rural areas) or expect people to cycle 30 miles. What we can do though is promote increased public transport and cycling lanes in existing urban areas (where the majority of the population is) Take as many cars off the road as possible.
 

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Funny you say about size. When I was buying mine last month I was in the Toyota showroom having a look around. They had the usual cars in there, the CRV suv, the RAV4 4x4 and then the new BZ4 EV suv. I’m not joking but compared to the other vehicles this thing was huge!

Parking spaces are too small, as are some roads particular rural ones so the weight of these must be greater than a petrol equivalent surely?

Then of course there is the risk of fire. This article I found was interesting particular where they suggest having more space between vehicles in car parks. Can you imagine how much lower the capacity of public car parks would be if they did this?

 
Parking spaces aren't "too small", country roads aren't too narrow, it is just the latest fashion, needlessly large vehicles that have grown a couple of inches every year...for years.
There is no need for large 4*4 sized vehicles...it is just an old game reissued...mine is bigger than yours.
Smaller vehicles are more efficient... sadly, not as much money in them for the makers.
 
There are fewer EV fires than petrol ones, it's a hugely overblown "risk".


I don't like how that BBC article tries to shoehorn EVs in as in a huge fire like that any cars parked together are going to combust no matter what.
 
The move towards SUVs is depressing. I owned an Ateca for about a year and got rid because it felt too big. I've recently seen the new Kia Electric SUV that is absolutely huge, like a Land rover Disco on steroids. I don't see the appeal tbh but many car manufacturers are stopping production of what you would class as traditional cars like the Ford Focus.
 
The move towards SUVs is depressing. I owned an Ateca for about a year and got rid because it felt too big. I've recently seen the new Kia Electric SUV that is absolutely huge, like a Land rover Disco on steroids. I don't see the appeal tbh but many car manufacturers are stopping production of what you would class as traditional cars like the Ford Focus.

Yep, it's ridiculous where i live. Always do the school run and local trips in our FIat500, the amount of times i nip through and leave a pair of SUV's unable to pass honking at one another :cool:
 
There are fewer EV fires than petrol ones, it's a hugely overblown "risk".


I don't like how that BBC article tries to shoehorn EVs in as in a huge fire like that any cars parked together are going to combust no matter what.

I believe the point they are making is that a traditional car fire can be extinguished in any 30 minutes. For an EV it can be up to four hours or just let them burn themselves out. As the article states, the fire service then needs specialist equipment to move the vehicle away from the scene whereas a traditional car fire can be moved relatively easily once extinguished.
 
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