Higher education in the UK; is a bleak future ahead?

[BSwiss]

To echo some of the points made on here about uni being sold as a golden ticket to employment, last month I was invited to a local university to consult on a new degree.

I am far from an academic (I hold a degree but was of the Tony Blair Babies generation heavily encouraged to attend), but I was attractive to the course leader/designer as someone who employs in the new course field.

There were about 10 of us invited to consult and all from my background, and all our inputs were to increase student employability. The first concrete outcome I’ve learned of the course is moving the first intake date from September ‘25 to April ‘26 to align the finishing date with a big local employers’ typical annual recruitment drive.

Reading this thread and the differing views on HE has put that experience in a new light for me.

I was somewhat dismayed at the consultation at how out of touch with current industry standards the course leaders were, but perhaps their role should be more concerned with the greater theoretical background rather than practical application.

Also a side point here - I learned that a big challenge the university in question faces is a growing proclivity for school leavers to believe they can self-educate, then enter the remote workforce and stay in their bedrooms for the foreseeable. That felt a million miles from when I was of the age to leave school, get as far from my folks as possible and hammer the 3for1 VK deals.

 

[James]

I'm on my second degree now. When I went from GCSE to A-Level, I studied creative subjects and then went to university at 18 to study photography. I genuinely enjoy the arts and was quite talented as a teen. In hindsight, I only went that route because I was good at it and didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I was the first person in my family to undertake a degree, and throughout my whole school education, you were brought up with the belief that doing a degree meant better career prospects. Long story short: I completed my degree and realised that hands-on experience is what I needed. I applied for a few jobs with no success, did some freelance (realised how difficult the industry was) and gave up after so long. Positive: It’s a nice (expensive!) hobby I've carried.

Jumping to the age of 22, I joined the NHS as an admin, went into a clinical role after a few years, and then realised through hands-on experience that nursing was my calling! Ironic as my parents were nurses and put me off the profession as a teen. I'm now 32 and nearing the end of my second degree, studying adult nursing.

Now the nursing degree is hard, it’s probably one of the hardest things I've gone through in life. The degree is split 50:50, with half the course being ‘on placement’ (working in hospitals and various clinical environments) and the other half studying in university, all the academic stuff. The most difficult part of this course? All the academia. Nursing as a profession is very practical and very hands-on. There's, of course, underlying theory to be aware of, and the care we provide is based heavily on research. However, a lot of the academic work I've done I've found very unnecessary, my peers agree with me, nurses and clinicians I've spoken to agree with me. Many moons ago, you went to ‘nursing school’, and there was more of a focus on practical training. There's a common saying in nursing that you don't learn how to be a nurse until you are a nurse. I feel a large part of that is due to the disparity between what universities teach vs reality.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for universities to scale back courses and make university something for the few, not the masses. In my personal experience, I've learnt more through actually working and gaining that life experience. I found university useful as a teen and I have learnt a lot through my current degree, but in both cases they poorly prepare you for the actual career paths you take afterwards. The concept of university needs to change.

 

[Itgoeshowhigh]

However, a lot of the academic work I've done I've found very unnecessary, my peers agree with me, nurses and clinicians I've spoken to agree with me.

Completely agree with this. I personally found the clinical placements valuable but the academic assignments I did as part of my nursing degree were a complete and utter waste of time. Too vague, too fluffy, no clinical basis, nothing useful for day to day nursing.

I do feel nurses should be educated to degree level but there really needs to be a rethink into what content is included in the academic portion.

At present the quality of the education that nurses receive seems to be very much “luck of the draw” depending on which placements they get allocated.

 

[Matt.GC]

Interestingly, I wonder if generative AI, while clearly a gamechanger, is perhaps overhyped in terms of job losses it will supposedly cause among white-collar professions.

In my field of specialism, for example (data science/analytics), the broad consensus from having read around a bit and listened to experts appears to be that AI will compliment data scientists rather than replace them entirely. It might remove some of the laborious grunt work from the job and potentially alter the skillset that the role requires somewhat, but a lot of the skills and decisions will still need a human.

And besides, the AI needs people to code and develop it to progress! We may eventually reach a point where AI can code and control itself for all I know, but I think that's years away if it ever happens, and if that ever happens (that's a very big if, in my opinion), I think we have far worse things to fear than data scientists being displaced from jobs!

Perhaps I'm just desperately trying to convince myself that I haven't made a terrible mistake specialising in data science and that I won't be rendered redundant by AI within a few short years and need to retrain, but from everything I've read, a common consensus among many experts seems to be that AI will complement many jobs rather than replace them entirely.

I don't know if this is at all helpful Matt, but we had a professional data analyst as a lecturer last year. Despite achieving my second highest grade for that module (I got 85% for it) I absolutely despised it, but understood it was wholly necessary for the course.

He's a post graduate as well and looked like he was in his late 30's I'd say. Absolutely loved what he did for a living and we discussed the changes to his profession at length over the years. He did say that a lot of the stuff he enjoyed about the job had already gone and will continue to do so. He was quite frank about that, and a little saddened. However qualitative data analytics is such a broad profession, he felt there will always be a high demand for skilled data analysts. AI and tech is taking a lot of the leg work out of crunching numbers, and tech pretty much has quantitative analysis wrapped up for the future. But organisations need information about people, wants, needs, desires, feelings etc.

He started the module by asking what we all thought data analysts did? I was honest and said that "I always assumed they were these people with made-up jobs who spoil everyone else's creativity and decisions by fostering a culture of centralised autocracy". He smiled and said that's a very common perception and expected us to say something along those lines. But what he was doing was trying to get us to understand why there's such an importance for skilled data analysts, and how much the role is changing.

As business managers, we're the people either making those decisions, or dealing with having them imposed upon us. I understand now how interconnected it all it all is. The data analyst is only as good as the decision maker, the decision maker is only as good as the data analyst.

He explained that he's worked with numerous organisations, public and private, and excellent strategies have been formed when all these processes and skill sets are fully integrated. He also said however that he worked with a particular organisation where the strategy was already formed and he was tasked with finding them what they felt were "the right answers", and when his profession and skills are dismissed in such a way, poor decisions are made. He felt they may as well have just used a machine if that's what they wanted.

Hence why, as he put it, "a data guy that hardly anyone ever sees is involved with a business management degree". Data analysts are an integral part of organisational strategy.

Very interesting and skilled guy, and definitely opened my eyes. Not just "the numbers guys" as he put it, there's far more to it than that. AI and ML can take out the donkey work, but can't replace what he has. Worth his weight in gold I'd say.

 

[Matt N]

To the point of @James and @Itgoeshowhigh, who both seem to have had experience of nursing degrees; perhaps nursing and similar vocational subjects shouldn’t be taught as degrees? Maybe they should be taught as vocational qualifications at the level of a degree, but focusing more on the practical side? Correct me if I’m wrong here, but in subjects like nursing, I imagine the skill set is not particularly rooted in having learned much specific theory, so I can see why you would think nursing is not a particularly degree-suited subject.

I think a university education perhaps best suits subjects where the skill set is rooted in having learned specific theory, such as my degree subject of Computer Science or things like Maths, Engineering and the pure sciences. Perhaps something like Law is similar, as well, as you do have to be very well read on the law and all its specific clauses and eccentricities to be a lawyer.

Vocational subjects like nursing don’t really rely on such specific theory being taught, nor do the social sciences or the arts.

I don't know if this is at all helpful Matt, but we had a professional data analyst as a lecturer last year. Despite achieving my second highest grade for that module (I got 85% for it) I absolutely despised it, but understood it was wholly necessary for the course.

He's a post graduate as well and looked like he was in his late 30's I'd say. Absolutely loved what he did for a living and we discussed the changes to his profession at length over the years. He did say that a lot of the stuff he enjoyed about the job had already gone and will continue to do so. He was quite frank about that, and a little saddened. However qualitative data analytics is such a broad profession, he felt there will always be a high demand for skilled data analysts. AI and tech is taking a lot of the leg work out of crunching numbers, and tech pretty much has quantitative analysis wrapped up for the future. But organisations need information about people, wants, needs, desires, feelings etc.

He started the module by asking what we all thought data analysts did? I was honest and said that "I always assumed they were these people with made-up jobs who spoil everyone else's creativity and decisions by fostering a culture of centralised autocracy". He smiled and said that's a very common perception and expected us to say something along those lines. But what he was doing was trying to get us to understand why there's such an importance for skilled data analysts, and how much the role is changing.

As business managers, we're the people either making those decisions, or dealing with having them imposed upon us. I understand now how interconnected it all it all is. The data analyst is only as good as the decision maker, the decision maker is only as good as the data analyst.

He explained that he's worked with numerous organisations, public and private, and excellent strategies have been formed when all these processes and skill sets are fully integrated. He also said however that he worked with a particular organisation where the strategy was already formed and he was tasked with finding them what they felt were "the right answers", and when his profession and skills are dismissed in such a way, poor decisions are made. He felt they may as well have just used a machine if that's what they wanted.

Hence why, as he put it, "a data guy that hardly anyone ever sees is involved with a business management degree". Data analysts are an integral part of organisational strategy.

Very interesting and skilled guy, and definitely opened my eyes. Not just "the numbers guys" as he put it, there's far more to it than that. AI and ML can take out the donkey work, but can't replace what he has. Worth his weight in gold I'd say.

That’s very helpful @Matt.GC, and would seem to confirm my feeling that maths/coding is only a very small part of what a data scientist/analyst actually does!

One thing I’ve often been told about data analytics in university and learned through some of my own experiences is that the main coding or otherwise practical part of a data science/analytics project actually takes up a surprisingly small percentage of the overall project time span. The bits that take the time are the parts where you’re doing data collection/preprocessing as well as actually consulting with stakeholders and figuring out what your MO is and what main questions you want to answer. AI may be able to do the menial grunt work, but it’s this stuff that AI will never be able to do.

Not to mention that another key part of a data analyst’s role is being a storyteller and delivering business insights. As you rightly say, data analysts are vital for offering insights from information, and they are the bridge between corporate decision makers such as yourself and that information. A good analyst should tell a convincing story, with data and statistics simply being the words they use to tell it. Data science/analytics doesn’t explicitly require hard maths or code; they’re simply a means to an end.

Also, using ChatGPT to code is not really all that different to how Google and StackOverflow have been around for years, or how calculators have been around to mean that we don’t have to do mental maths for descriptive statistics anymore. Someone once said to me that “Sourcing the actual code is the easy part, because ChatGPT and/or Google can just do that for you these days. The hard part that needs expert data analysts and domain knowledge is determining what to ask it for in the first place and deriving insight from what it gives you”.

 

[Bert2theSpark]

To the point of @James and @Itgoeshowhigh, who both seem to have had experience of nursing degrees; perhaps nursing and similar vocational subjects shouldn’t be taught as degrees? Maybe they should be taught as vocational qualifications at the level of a degree, but focusing more on the practical side? Correct me if I’m wrong here, but in subjects like nursing, I imagine the skill set is not particularly rooted in having learned much specific theory, so I can see why you would think nursing is not a particularly degree-suited subject.

Subjects like Paramedic Science and Nursing have only recently become compulsory to have degrees, back in the day you'd only have to complete a series of placements, but evidence has shown that patient outcomes are significantly better when they are cared for by degree holders, as they have a better understanding behind the theoretical side of healthcare. This is only a recent change (I think it was introduced under the May government?), and subsequently these courses have really high dropout rates (the Paramedic course at my Uni has an over 65% dropout rate), it's because 18 year olds are not prepared for the lifestyle and workload that comes with undertaking these degrees. You have the essays and exams of a Uni student paired with 12 hour placements. It's a monumental step up from A-Levels, especially compared with non-healthcare related degrees.

 

[Ash]

I’ll put it another way, I work for a large turnkey MEICA (Mechanical, Electrical, Instrumentation, Control and Automation) organisation, and I bet 10% of the CVs I currently see for roles are from applicants in the UK. And that’s being generous.

We employ people from all levels, apprentices/graduates through to principal engineers and management in a range of fields and skill sets.

Granted we are competing against industries (big tech/finance) after similar types of candidates, but recruitment is a major hamper to growth. We cannot get the people with the relevant skills despite working with many education institutions etc.

Experienced hires are extremely difficult to find (and this is before any salary expectations are set out) The UK education/skills system has failed to meet the needs of industry and this will be across the UK. Combine this with stagnant white collar wages, the lure of perceived easy money elsewhere (crypto/drop shipping/youtube) along with cost of living and it’s a toxic mix.

 

[Matt.GC]

That’s very helpful @Matt.GC, and would seem to confirm my feeling that maths/coding is only a very small part of what a data scientist/analyst actually does!

One thing I’ve often been told about data analytics in university and learned through some of my own experiences is that the main coding or otherwise practical part of a data science/analytics project actually takes up a surprisingly small percentage of the overall project time span. The bits that take the time are the parts where you’re doing data collection/preprocessing as well as actually consulting with stakeholders and figuring out what your MO is and what main questions you want to answer. AI may be able to do the menial grunt work, but it’s this stuff that AI will never be able to do.

Not to mention that another key part of a data analyst’s role is being a storyteller and delivering business insights. As you rightly say, data analysts are vital for offering insights from information, and they are the bridge between corporate decision makers such as yourself and that information. A good analyst should tell a convincing story, with data and statistics simply being the words they use to tell it. Data science/analytics doesn’t explicitly require hard maths or code; they’re simply a means to an end.

Also, using ChatGPT to code is not really all that different to how Google and StackOverflow have been around for years, or how calculators have been around to mean that we don’t have to do mental maths for descriptive statistics anymore. Someone once said to me that “Sourcing the actual code is the easy part, because ChatGPT and/or Google can just do that for you these days. The hard part that needs expert data analysts and domain knowledge is determining what to ask it for in the first place and deriving insight from what it gives you”.

Basically Matt, that's pretty much exactly what he said to us!

There was a bit where he was getting side tracked getting excited over programmes, maths talk, technical talk etc. I was bored stiff and didn't have a clue what he was talking about, but another lady on my cohort was loving every minute of it.

But he challenged my perceptions in the first hour. I needed to understand different types of data, collection methods, preprocessing, analysis methods, the design of an MIS, ethics, etc so that I can work with analysts. Same with the analyst, they need to be able to engage and understand what insights they are developing. It's actually quite a large crossover.

He said he loves the technical bit, whereas I'd rather pull my eyeballs out with cocktail sticks. But love deep diving into the insights with the pretty colours to make an informed decision. That only happens with stakeholder engagement and strong collaboration.

The example of the business that decided on their strategy to save £x amount already, and wanted him to find something in the poor quality and drip fed datasets they provided him with to get "the right answer" was a breakdown in that.

You did quite a thorough job the other day Matt of examining queue times in Merlin parks. It didn't look like most of it was written in English to me. But I found the topic very interesting, I read your summary, and then was able to understand some of your methods and the data you were using when I had digested the headlines and went back in. Same interest, same need, same goal. You went in one side, I went in the other. If we commissioned that together, we'd need to engage with each other and understand the overlap. I could be sitting on some golden data that I didn't know was useful and was not able to make head nor tail of, but by understanding my problem and the insights I need, you'd be able to consult.

Subjects like Paramedic Science and Nursing have only recently become compulsory to have degrees, back in the day you'd only have to complete a series of placements, but evidence has shown that patient outcomes are significantly better when they are cared for by degree holders, as they have a better understanding behind the theoretical side of healthcare. This is only a recent change (I think it was introduced under the May government?), and subsequently these courses have really high dropout rates (the Paramedic course at my Uni has an over 65% dropout rate), it's because 18 year olds are not prepared for the lifestyle and workload that comes with undertaking these degrees. You have the essays and exams of a Uni student paired with 12 hour placements. It's a monumental step up from A-Levels, especially compared with non-healthcare related degrees.

My mother qualified as a nurse in the 80's. Very hands on, and very long placements in various functions. She did it with a good set of A-levels, and although still technically qualified as a nurse, she needed to do some extra training to get back in decades later and does not have a degree. My sister in-law on the other hand is also a nurse, and spent years studying for her degree and believes it has been very useful with the way modern nursing is. But at the same time, she didn't feel her training was hands-on enough.

I’ll put it another way, I work for a large turnkey MEICA (Mechanical, Electrical, Instrumentation, Control and Automation) organisation, and I bet 10% of the CVs I currently see for roles are from applicants in the UK. And that’s being generous.

We employ people from all levels, apprentices/graduates through to principal engineers and management in a range of fields and skill sets.

Granted we are competing against industries (big tech/finance) after similar types of candidates, but recruitment is a major hamper to growth. We cannot get the people with the relevant skills despite working with many education institutions etc.

Experienced hires are extremely difficult to find (and this is before any salary expectations are set out) The UK education/skills system has failed to meet the needs of industry and this will be across the UK. Combine this with stagnant white collar wages, the lure of perceived easy money elsewhere (crypto/drop shipping/youtube) along with cost of living and it’s a toxic mix.

Someone on my cohort also works in that industry and told us a similar tail. Massive recruitment and retention struggles, and now finding it harder to get from abroad.

Blair's urge to get everyone into university may have been well intended, and I remember the stigma and snobbery very well that used to be attached to more vocational qualifications, even if at the same level as purely academic qualifications. This almost feels like a hangover of trying to correct the 11+, Secondary Modern Vs Grammar Schools, CSE Vs O-Level situation. There were snobby parents as near ago as the 1990's who still referred to my secondary school as the "grammar school" due to it's former status, a level 3 NVQ or GNVQ as "a fake A-Level", and a teacher once told me I would be better off getting an apprenticeship because they are for "manual labourers".

Surely there has be a solution where we can maintain well funded and internationally acclaimed universities whilst also having a system that can award undergraduate degrees for skills and knowledge that students and industry need? I can't see how the current situation is sustainable and is any good for the universities, students, industry, the taxpayer, and the economy.