Is it over for MMM?

[Ash]

Nothing has changed here though, Alton Towers and Merlin / Tussauds have always relied on external complainies to compliment the work MMM do. There are many things that are beyond the capabilities of MMM so they need to outsource to more specialised companies. Things like the fire and screens on Wickerman being two major, recent examples from long before the changes at MMM we see today.

Even going back to the days of Tussauds and The Haunted House, many many theming companies were involved in creating The Haunted House besides Sparks and Tussauds. Farmer Studios built props for the ride, Rex Studios painted most of the ride and set pieces, and even a dedicated engineering firm was used for the mechanics of the moving props. The point is, outsourcing to many companies is nothing new and has been used since day one.

I think Sparks went under due to mis management, they went under at a time when the themed entertainment market was growing and had not even reached its peak in the UK. They were also used extensively in Europe. The Haunted House at Alton Towers is what sent Sparks under, building over ambitious and expensive props, some of which did not work out. It should have been the opposite, being one of their largest projects to date.

The demand for themed entertainment companies is certainly here in the UK, seemingly growing again too.

Indeed, and now they have nothing.

Good luck to them.

Time will tell I suppose, when the effects/props in TCAAM start failing. Or when items need replacing for Pirate Takeover. Or Scarefest rolls around. Or the lights fail in hex again.

Most of us will know within one ride on Hex, TCAAM and GG whether Alton are actually capable of maintaining AV and scenic items anymore. And I look forward to being proved wrong…

We won’t tell straight away but within 2-3 years it will be glaring.

The place is getting extracted, day in, day out and it’s only a matter of time till more cracks show. (If the closures haven’t already shown that)

Wait till the “best year ever” comes back around with just scarefest and fireworks. No shows and only CBeebies as entertainment. Although I begrudge calling Alton’s staged attempts entertainment.

 

[DistortAMG]

Indeed, and now they have nothing.

Good luck to them.

Time will tell I suppose, when the effects/props in TCAAM start failing. Or when items need replacing for Pirate Takeover. Or Scarefest rolls around. Or the lights fail in hex again.

Most of us will know within one ride on Hex, TCAAM and GG whether Alton are actually capable of maintaining AV and scenic items anymore. And I look forward to being proved wrong…

We won’t tell straight away but within 2-3 years it will be glaring.

The place is getting extracted, day in, day out and it’s only a matter of time till more cracks show. (If the closures haven’t already shown that)

Wait till the “best year ever” comes back around with just scarefest and fireworks. No shows and only CBeebies as entertainment. Although I begrudge calling Alton’s staged attempts entertainment.

I'm not sure I agree with this fully doom and gloom outlook because Studios North is gone.

MMM indeed had partial capability on site, they certainly did not have the full suit of skill sets and disciplines on site, and especially in AV and everything else, in order to maintain the parks themed elements. I think their main strengths on site, at Alton Towers, were limited to small and medium prop making only. Anything else and even prop making to some extent had to come from off site and or external companies. So straight away, nothing changes there for the majority of maintenance requirements needed by the park for their themed elements. Studios North never were part of the parks maintenance, they made props and that's it. So loosing this studio in itself won't have a detrimental impact on the parks themed elements maintenance.

Plus, even though under the same umbrella, Studios North was part of a different company altogether than Alton Towers. So the same purchase orders and everything else need to go through for work, infact, from what I hear, PO's were usually highly inflated between the two, a common thing when companies under the same umbrella deal with each other.

Other parks seem to manage just fine, Studios North had a minimal impact on the parks maintenance schedule due to their very limited skill sets on site. So nothing changes there.

Time will tell I guess, but they didn't actually do that much at Studios North, much less than you think.

 

[Dave]

Indeed, and now they have nothing.

Good luck to them.

Time will tell I suppose, when the effects/props in TCAAM start failing. Or when items need replacing for Pirate Takeover. Or Scarefest rolls around. Or the lights fail in hex again.

Most of us will know within one ride on Hex, TCAAM and GG whether Alton are actually capable of maintaining AV and scenic items anymore. And I look forward to being proved wrong…

We won’t tell straight away but within 2-3 years it will be glaring.

The place is getting extracted, day in, day out and it’s only a matter of time till more cracks show. (If the closures haven’t already shown that)

Wait till the “best year ever” comes back around with just scarefest and fireworks. No shows and only CBeebies as entertainment. Although I begrudge calling Alton’s staged attempts entertainment.

Studios rarely did maintenance work unless the parks paid for it. That was usually left to tech services already. AV maintenance was historically left to tech services as well but moved to Ents about 10 years ago, with that being outsourced as well there could be an impact there.

 

[Quantum]

Merlin have overextended themselves with the Lego parks. New parks in New York and Korea have had very low attendance, it feels like UK parks in particular are paying the price for Merlin's greed

 

[owenstreet7]

Merlin have overextended themselves with the Lego parks. New parks in New York and Korea have had very low attendance, it feels like UK parks in particular are paying the price for Merlin's greed

Too many Legolands - it's like Disneyland from Wish in my opinion

 

[Quantum]

Some rumours floating around that Merlin may look to sell some of its Sealife sites.

If there is any truth in this then Merlin has been awfully managed. I'm not sure why hammering UK entertainment offering is a good idea when it's not the cause of those problems and you have Universal UK on the horizon.

 

[AT86]

Some rumours floating around that Merlin may look to sell some of its Sealife sites.

If there is any truth in this then Merlin has been awfully managed. I'm not sure why hammering UK entertainment offering is a good idea when it's not the cause of those problems and you have Universal UK on the horizon.

It’s not a rumour, it’s confirmed by Merlin.

Makes strategic sense really.

Post in thread 'Merlin Entertainments: General Discussion'
https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/merlin-entertainments-general-discussion.5101/post-500149

 

[Quantum]

It’s not a rumour, it’s confirmed by Merlin.

Makes strategic sense really.

Post in thread 'Merlin Entertainments: General Discussion'
https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/merlin-entertainments-general-discussion.5101/post-500149

It would make more strategic sense if they stopped building Lego parks where there's no demand for them.

 

[AT86]

It would make more strategic sense if they stopped building Lego parks where there's no demand for them.

Or perhaps it would make strategic sense to do both?

 

[Poisson]

I would imagine they'll bin off some Sea Life, then move onto other midways

 

[Augustus Pugin]

I'm not sure I agree with this fully doom and gloom outlook because Studios North is gone.

MMM indeed had partial capability on site, they certainly did not have the full suit of skill sets and disciplines on site, and especially in AV and everything else, in order to maintain the parks themed elements. I think their main strengths on site, at Alton Towers, were limited to small and medium prop making only. Anything else and even prop making to some extent had to come from off site and or external companies. So straight away, nothing changes there for the majority of maintenance requirements needed by the park for their themed elements. Studios North never were part of the parks maintenance, they made props and that's it. So loosing this studio in itself won't have a detrimental impact on the parks themed elements maintenance.

Plus, even though under the same umbrella, Studios North was part of a different company altogether than Alton Towers. So the same purchase orders and everything else need to go through for work, infact, from what I hear, PO's were usually highly inflated between the two, a common thing when companies under the same umbrella deal with each other.

Other parks seem to manage just fine, Studios North had a minimal impact on the parks maintenance schedule due to their very limited skill sets on site. So nothing changes there.

Time will tell I guess, but they didn't actually do that much at Studios North, much less than you think.

I had to reply to this after long periods of lurking. DistortAMG is wrong. I worked at MMM. MMM Alton actually made all of the new Nemesis legs inhouse and refurbished the building completely outside. Norse Sky just hung a few things internally. MMM have handled very large scale projects in the past. The whole corner of Alton Manor warehouse was removed to install the Emily face. Regarding park maintenance SN were key. Usually working full time over Winter at Alton continuously working on scenic jobs. MMM could only do what Alton requested for in an official PO so very restricted as you can imagine.

 

[DistortAMG]

I had to reply to this after long periods of lurking. DistortAMG is wrong. I worked at MMM. MMM Alton actually made all of the new Nemesis legs inhouse and refurbished the building completely outside. Norse Sky just hung a few things internally. MMM have handled very large scale projects in the past. The whole corner of Alton Manor warehouse was removed to install the Emily face. Regarding park maintenance SN were key. Usually working full time over Winter at Alton continuously working on scenic jobs. MMM could only do what Alton requested for in an official PO so very restricted as you can imagine.

Thanks for clarifying. I do have more questions now though.

With SN being key in park maintenance, without sounding too negative, the question gets raised about where exactly was this park maintenance carried out? As the majority of ride themeing across the resort is not just in a bad state, but outright falling apart. There are a few exceptions yes, but overall the state and presentation of the themed entertainment across the site has been in decline for many, many years now.

Is the Curse of Alton Manor now being classed as a major project? Really? The ride is great yes, but the majority of what makes it great was there before. The revamp added some nice things that pull the narrative in the same direction and there was alot of work involved no doubt. But it's kind of worrying and telling of the state of the company right now if MMM's benchmark of a major project is basically the plussing of an old attraction. This is a company who are a worldwide major attractions operator after all. This isn't to takeaway the fact of how good the ride is, it's great, but the majority of the theming of that attraction has been in place since 1992. You may have removed part of the building for Emilys face, but you didn't need to build the actual building, frontage, transit system, electrical, services and every other major infrastructure to the area, supporting buildings and shops, a large portion of the scenery....I could go on but I think you get the point I am trying to make.

I still stand by the fact that the real loss here is the people who have lost their jobs. It's not the fact that there was a studio on site. It appears that there was no work being carried out internally, that cannot be done by external companies. This could be down to mis management, almost certainly down to that fact, but the proof that this can be done off site is shown in many parks in the UK, who have built and are building right now, themed attractions from outsourced companies, that have and are exceeding the output quality of MMM, which is a sad fact, but an objectively measurable fact non the less. MMM have shown however, that when they are allowed to, they can do great things, those times seem to be getting rarer and rarer though. It's a shame, I think we can all agree on that. If Merlin had not been classic Merlin, this would be a huge loss for sure. But the decline of their product across their whole portfolio for many years, makes this not as big of a loss than it would have been years ago, in my view anyway.

 

[Matt N]

I don’t think that the closure of Merlin Studios North is necessarily the game changer for thematic output that some make out.

Plenty of parks outsource their theming manufacture; to provide a few UK examples alone, Paultons Park outsources its well regarded theming to what was Jora Vision, and much of Drayton Manor’s well regarded 90s and 2000s theming was outsourced. In mainland Europe, Phantasialand have outsourced theming to great success (Klugheim was at least partially outsourced to Universal Rocks, for example), amongst others, and over in the USA, I know many of the non-Disney and Universal parks outsource to companies like FORREC or PGAV Destinations.

Outside of the big duo of Disney and Universal, I honestly think it’s more common than not to outsource theming manufacture nowadays. Heck, Merlin have done it to a degree in the past; Universal Rocks worked on Wicker Man, Scruffy Dog worked on attractions like Derren Brown, and Holovis have also done work for Merlin. I ascertain that not much of the larger scale theming items in Merlin parks were actually done by Merlin Studios.

And if we’re casting our minds back, it’s worth remembering that many of John Wardley’s revered early 90s dark rides had outsourced theming from Keith Sparks in Colchester!

Merlin Magic Making, the design division that probably has a greater effect on thematic output in the parks, is unaffected here. Given the number of things Merlin have outsourced already theming manufacture-wise, I doubt the abolition of Studios North will have much effect on the thematic output at the parks.

 

[Augustus Pugin]

Thanks for clarifying. I do have more questions now though.

With SN being key in park maintenance, without sounding too negative, the question gets raised about where exactly was this park maintenance carried out? As the majority of ride themeing across the resort is not just in a bad state, but outright falling apart. There are a few exceptions yes, but overall the state and presentation of the themed entertainment across the site has been in decline for many, many years now.

Is the Curse of Alton Manor now being classed as a major project? Really? The ride is great yes, but the majority of what makes it great was there before. The revamp added some nice things that pull the narrative in the same direction and there was alot of work involved no doubt. But it's kind of worrying and telling of the state of the company right now if MMM's benchmark of a major project is basically the plussing of an old attraction. This is a company who are a worldwide major attractions operator after all. This isn't to takeaway the fact of how good the ride is, it's great, but the majority of the theming of that attraction has been in place since 1992. You may have removed part of the building for Emilys face, but you didn't need to build the actual building, frontage, transit system, electrical, services and every other major infrastructure to the area, supporting buildings and shops, a large portion of the scenery....I could go on but I think you get the point I am trying to make.

I still stand by the fact that the real loss here is the people who have lost their jobs. It's not the fact that there was a studio on site. It appears that there was no work being carried out internally, that cannot be done by external companies. This could be down to mis management, almost certainly down to that fact, but the proof that this can be done off site is shown in many parks in the UK, who have built and are building right now, themed attractions from outsourced companies, that have and are exceeding the output quality of MMM, which is a sad fact, but an objectively measurable fact non the less. MMM have shown however, that when they are allowed to, they can do great things, those times seem to be getting rarer and rarer though. It's a shame, I think we can all agree on that. If Merlin had not been classic Merlin, this would be a huge loss for sure. But the decline of their product across their whole portfolio for many years, makes this not as big of a loss than it would have been years ago, in my view

Thanks for clarifying. I do have more questions now though.

With SN being key in park maintenance, without sounding too negative, the question gets raised about where exactly was this park maintenance carried out? As the majority of ride themeing across the resort is not just in a bad state, but outright falling apart. There are a few exceptions yes, but overall the state and presentation of the themed entertainment across the site has been in decline for many, many years now.

Is the Curse of Alton Manor now being classed as a major project? Really? The ride is great yes, but the majority of what makes it great was there before. The revamp added some nice things that pull the narrative in the same direction and there was alot of work involved no doubt. But it's kind of worrying and telling of the state of the company right now if MMM's benchmark of a major project is basically the plussing of an old attraction. This is a company who are a worldwide major attractions operator after all. This isn't to takeaway the fact of how good the ride is, it's great, but the majority of the theming of that attraction has been in place since 1992. You may have removed part of the building for Emilys face, but you didn't need to build the actual building, frontage, transit system, electrical, services and every other major infrastructure to the area, supporting buildings and shops, a large portion of the scenery....I could go on but I think you get the point I am trying to make.

I still stand by the fact that the real loss here is the people who have lost their jobs. It's not the fact that there was a studio on site. It appears that there was no work being carried out internally, that cannot be done by external companies. This could be down to mis management, almost certainly down to that fact, but the proof that this can be done off site is shown in many parks in the UK, who have built and are building right now, themed attractions from outsourced companies, that have and are exceeding the output quality of MMM, which is a sad fact, but an objectively measurable fact non the less. MMM have shown however, that when they are allowed to, they can do great things, those times seem to be getting rarer and rarer though. It's a shame, I think we can all agree on that. If Merlin had not been classic Merlin, this would be a huge loss for sure. But the decline of their product across their whole portfolio for many years, makes this not as big of a loss than it would have been years ago, in my view anyway.

I'm not saying your views of Merlin, MMM are not valid, in fact I agree with most of them. I'd like to reply with the paragraphs you set.

First paragraph: Maintenance
The people who worked at SN were passionate, local or experts. I myself who has 14 industry years experience and worked there for over 10 years I completely agree the park was shabby, neglected and needed an overhaul. The system to raise scenic maintenance requests was non existent. At SN they could only act when Alton raised a Purchase order for the job. So if it was just painting a flower in cebeebies land it wouldn't be raised untill 40 flowers need tlc and guest complain about it/notice it. The 'canvas' sheets surrounding Thirteen had a last minute request by Alton that was completed by MMM but parts left shabby/incomplete and that was documented by MMM as Alton didn't budget for it. Alas Alton/Merlin have the budget to outsource now good look to them.