UK politics general discussion

[geo4chg]

Oh, so the Three Day Week was a Conservative policy? Interesting… maybe it’s the Winter of Discontent that my Nan remembers?

Interestingly, the Tories apparently had a £3bn economic crisis of their own under John Major in the form of Black Wednesday. I’m not entirely sure what made it such a big crisis, but it had something to do with the pound’s exchange rate being poor.

Another interesting thing to note is that I’ve heard some argue that we’re currently in a second Winter of Discontent, what with the cost of living crisis and the ever-present COVID situation. I don’t see this wiping out the Conservatives like the 1978/79 one did Labour, though… it’s not nearly as severe as the late 1970s situation was, from what I can gather, and I also think that Boris Johnson and the Conservatives are too popular to fall to something like this; the events in Downing Street and the cost of living crisis seem to have had a very negligible impact on his overall popularity so far.

I also think that Boris’ government could have done enough good by 2024 to make people forget about the events of 2021/22, what with his ambitious levelling up agenda and all. As much as I will almost definitely be voting for Keir Starmer’s Labour Party at the next election (unless something drastic happens to change my mind), I think Boris does seem to be landing some blows against Starmer that are making him very popular and far more worthy of leadership than Starmer in the public’s eyes; he always gets far louder cheers in the Commons than Starmer does.

Boris Johnson gets bigger cheers in the Commons because he has more MPs to cheer him.

On the contrary, Boris Johnson's popularity has plummeted in the opinion polls, the Partygate scandal is destroying his electability. There is no way the Conservatives go into the next election with Boris Johnson as leader, they may get a hung parliament due to Starmer's lack of charisma (and apparent lack of policy) but a majority is totally out of the question with Boris still leader. 2 years is a long time in politics but the fall out from these parties is such that people will still remember when the next election comes around, and this time he won't have Brexit to carry him.

 

[WillPS]

You know the commons is populated by MPs, so there's about 50% more of them to make noise for Johnson than there is to make noise for Starmer, right?

Seriously what goes on at PMQs really means diddly squat to your average floating voter.

 

[Matt N]

I have an interesting question; if any of you watch PMQs, do you think Johnson or Starmer currently gives off the stronger impression, based purely on PMQs?

 

[WillPS]

I have an interesting question; if any of you watch PMQs, do you think Johnson or Starmer currently gives off the stronger impression, based purely on PMQs?

As with your Nan and her claim that Labour caused power cuts in the 70s, you can take whatever you want from it.

I'm enjoying watching Johnson squirm and that should probably tell you what my answer would be, but I don't think Kier Starmer is a fabulous leader or delivers particularly well at the dispatch box.

 

[Matt N]

As with your Nan and her claim that Labour caused power cuts in the 70s, you can take whatever you want from it.

I'm enjoying watching Johnson squirm and that should probably tell you what my answer would be, but I don't think Kier Starmer is a fabulous leader or delivers particularly well at the dispatch box.

Interesting; thanks for your thoughts!

I’ll admit that I personally think Jeremy Corbyn made more of an impression on me as a Labour leader than Starmer does, because as I said, I liked many of Corbyn’s policies, but admittedly that might be down to Starmer not yet having had a chance to flaunt his party’s policy and the extent of how he can perform properly (e.g. in an election context).

Speaking of Keir Starmer, his supposed lockdown breach in May 2021 was apparently cleared by the police today and will not be investigated further: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-of-breaking-lockdown-rules-over-office-beer

So clearly whatever Boris is being accused of doing at 12 different events was seen as worse than this by the police, for what it’s worth.

 

[rob666]

Check out the recent big papers for a correct assessment of Boris's popularity Matt.
The last few weeks events have made his own popularity level with voters, and that of his party, absolutely nosedive.
Two weeks ago, a poll showed his popularity level with all voters was less than May's at her lowest...according to the Guardian.

 

[JAperson]

I have an interesting question; if any of you watch PMQs, do you think Johnson or Starmer currently gives off the stronger impression, based purely on PMQs?

Well I suppose Johnson as he is a natural performer however Starmer often gives very good, well strucutred and planned questions. Boris is great at getting around them which gets cheers from his MP's.
Starmer is clearly fairly competent but does lack charisma also a sizeable chunk of the media has it out for him, he clearly hasn't done anything wrong and inherited the most divided labour party ever.

In terms of this country being right wing, I think I'd disagree and say this country is very much centrist and likes stability. We don't want big change or radical swings left and right we simply want something in-between. Blair offered it so he won, Cameron offered it so he won. There are exceptions to this but I think this is on the whole the way most people in the country are. Some may argue brexit disproved what I've just said but I'd disagree. Speaking to people who voted brexit (quite a few members of my family) they seemed to think it would have a much smaller impact then it did. I'm not going to be the one to say people didn't know what they were voting for because I think people knew to an extend but didn't get the whole picture. The whole campaign on both sides was very messy and confusing for the averadge person. For me at the time I didn't completely get what it meant and I thought it would mean strict Visa rules to visit european countries (it could well have done, we are lucky it didn't).

Britain hasn't had a truly left wing government in a long long time. Although I wasn't around my understanding of Harold Wilson (leader of labour in most of the 60's and early 70's) was that he was fairly centrist and attempting to keep a good balance between both ends of the Labour party. He apparently deemed to unity of the party more important than anything and that was his key leadership cornerstone. Perhaps someone who knows more could enlighten me?

Back on the subject of Starmer, he's clearly not a very good campaigner but I have a feeling that he would be a competent and decent PM. He wouldn't do anything to radical (although some radical changes might well be needed). He'd certainly be a lot better than anyone I can think of in the Tory party. Is he an ideal leader for Labour? No probably not. Can I think of anyone much better who'd be centrist and also be competent? Not at the moment but I'm willing to learn of such a person.

For right of for wrong Labour cannot win with someone the public perceive as a Corbynite or anyone who was a big supporter of his. People view Corbyn very badly indeed and don't trust anyone around him. Speaking to people many think that Starmer isn't very good due to the media's smear campaign. Many think he has had a major involvement in the Jimmy Savle case which has been proven untrue. I really hope he can pull it out of the bag in the next election though because the Tories have been in power far too long now.

 

[Matt N]

I know it sounds stupid, but I’ll admit that as much as I find politics fascinating, the current situation is also worrying me somewhat in equal measure. The cost of living crisis is really stressing me out, and it feels as though both sides of the political spectrum are getting pretty angry and heated. I swear I don’t remember politics being this heated a few years back (I’m talking before the Brexit drama properly began)…

On that subject; in your opinion, who would you say was the most well-liked and respected prime minister Britain has had in recent history? I’ll admit I’m genuinely struggling to think of a genuinely well liked and universally respected British PM we’ve had in recent history… Johnson has grown unpopular, May was unpopular, Cameron was quite popular but I think the Brexit referendum tarnished his reputation for many, Brown was unpopular, Blair was pretty popular but Iraq tarnished his reputation for many… when did we last have a universally respected PM?

I know politicians will naturally be somewhat divisive by the nature of politics, but all of the recent PMs seem to either have been generally unpopular (e.g. May, Brown) or have had some sort of drama during their time in office that made them unpopular (e.g. Johnson, Cameron, Blair).

 

[geo4chg]

I know it sounds stupid, but I’ll admit that as much as I find politics fascinating, the current situation is also worrying me somewhat in equal measure. The cost of living crisis is really stressing me out, and it feels as though both sides of the political spectrum are getting pretty angry and heated. I swear I don’t remember politics being this heated a few years back (I’m talking before the Brexit drama properly began)…

On that subject; in your opinion, who would you say was the most well-liked and respected prime minister Britain has had in recent history? I’ll admit I’m genuinely struggling to think of a genuinely well liked and universally respected British PM we’ve had in recent history… Johnson has grown unpopular, May was unpopular, Cameron was quite popular but I think the Brexit referendum tarnished his reputation for many, Brown was unpopular, Blair was pretty popular but Iraq tarnished his reputation for many… when did we last have a universally respected PM?

I know politicians will naturally be somewhat divisive by the nature of politics, but all of the recent PMs seem to either have been generally unpopular or have had some sort of drama during their time in office that made them unpopular.

Generally PMs will grow less and less popular as their time in office goes on and history does not tend to look kindly on them (people focus on failings rather than successes), but there are also two broad types of PM -those that are good politicians but not necessarily good leaders (May, Brown, possibly Major, fall into this category), and those that are charismatic, good leaders but are let down by their politics (Cameron, Blair (though without Iraq I think he would be okay)) - it is rare to have a PM that is both. Had it not been for Iraq, I think Tony Blair would be pretty fondly remembered, but compared to what we've got now, where our leader completely disregards the institutions and traditions of what the Office of Prime Minister means, pretty much anyone would look pretty competent.

 

[JAperson]

I know it sounds stupid, but I’ll admit that as much as I find politics fascinating, the current situation is also worrying me somewhat in equal measure. The cost of living crisis is really stressing me out, and it feels as though both sides of the political spectrum are getting pretty angry and heated. I swear I don’t remember politics being this heated a few years back (I’m talking before the Brexit drama properly began)…

Matt as we are a similar age I hope you don't mind me saying but perhaps before Brexit we were that little bit too young to fully understand and or watch politics. It think it's always been divided and it's meant to be a struggle for both sides of the spectrum to gain power. As for the cost of living crisis it's worrying definitely, especially as the governmnet clearly has zero idea what to do about it. Well that or they've decided to do nothing. We've had many similar situations in the past. Including in 2008 and 09 which perhaps resulted in Gordon Brown's unpopularity (Personally I think he was very competent and did very well as a chancellor, I don't think he had time to prove himself as PM).

On that subject; in your opinion, who would you say was the most well-liked and respected prime minister Britain has had in recent history? I’ll admit I’m genuinely struggling to think of a genuinely well liked British PM we’ve had in recent history… Johnson has grown unpopular, May was unpopular, Cameron was quite popular but I think the Brexit referendum tarnished his reputation for many, Brown was unpopular, Blair was pretty popular but Iraq tarnished his reputation for many… when did we last have a truly universally respected PM?

That depends what you consider recent, pretty much all PM's in the last three decades have ended up disliked to an extent and perhaps that's the nature of the job. If you are want to talk about all PM's since the second world war Clement Attlee has always remained fairly popular (well those who know who he is anyway as there seems to be a quite large chunk of people who have no idea), he rebuilt the country after the horrors of World War two and established the NHS.
Looking at the list of previous PM's its a pretty sorry bunch, https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers
there are a few that were quite popular at the time. I think Harold Wilson at the time was quite popular as was his succesor James Callaghan. Sir Anthony Eden (Churchills successor) was popular until the Suez crisis. Churchill was obviously popular for what he did in the war however was eventually resented during his later term in office as his health wasn't good enough to leave as his domestic and foreign policy was failing.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

The last six years have certainly been more tumultuous and scandalous than the last few decades. Before Brexit, scandals generally only affected one or a few people rather than the entire government, the few further reaching scandals like expenses didn't last as long as our current fiasco. 2015-2019 was the first time three elections have taken place in the space of less than five years since the early 1970s.

 

[Alsty]

Maybe it was just my naivety but when I was younger it felt like there were compromises. Since Brexit it feels like everybody is entrenched and nobody is prepared to try and find middle ground, not even soften the edges on the most controversial parts. "My way or the highway"

 

[WillPS]

Matt as we are a similar age I hope you don't mind me saying but perhaps before Brexit we were that little bit too young to fully understand and or watch politics. It think it's always been divided and it's meant to be a struggle for both sides of the spectrum to gain power. As for the cost of living crisis it's worrying definitely, especially as the governmnet clearly has zero idea what to do about it. Well that or they've decided to do nothing. We've had many similar situations in the past. Including in 2008 and 09 which perhaps resulted in Gordon Brown's unpopularity (Personally I think he was very competent and did very well as a chancellor, I don't think he had time to prove himself as PM).

That depends what you consider recent, pretty much all PM's in the last three decades have ended up disliked to an extent and perhaps that's the nature of the job. If you are want to talk about all PM's since the second world war Clement Attlee has always remained fairly popular (well those who know who he is anyway as there seems to be a quite large chunk of people who have no idea), he rebuilt the country after the horrors of World War two and established the NHS.
Looking at the list of previous PM's its a pretty sorry bunch, https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers
there are a few that were quite popular at the time. I think Harold Wilson at the time was quite popular as was his succesor James Callaghan. Sir Anthony Eden (Churchills successor) was popular until the Suez crisis. Churchill was obviously popular for what he did in the war however was eventually resented during his later term in office as his health wasn't good enough to leave as his domestic and foreign policy was failing.

Jim Callaghan was not a popular prime minister.

He is famously misquoted as denying there was a crisis amidst the Winter of Discontent in 78/79.

 

[JAperson]

Jim Callaghan was not a popular prime minister.

He is famously misquoted as denying there was a crisis amidst the Winter of Discontent in 78/79.

Thanks for the info, I was unaware. I was under the impression, not sure where I got it from, that we has well liked although didn't actually do much.

 

[rob666]

Jim Callaghan was not a popular prime minister.

He is famously misquoted as denying there was a crisis amidst the Winter of Discontent in 78/79.

Supertramp album...
"Crisis, what crisis?"

 

[MattyH]

The best prime minister was clearly either Pitt the Elder or Lord Palmerston... I won't state which one as I don't wish to start a fight

 

[rob666]

I can only say back in the days of Wilson and Heath, there was less hatred, more intelligent discussion.
Time Boris went.
Bringing ridicule on the country to a whole new level.
Standing by his pack of lies regarding Savile, which was deliberate and pre planned lies.

 

[shakey]

I can only say back in the days of Wilson and Heath, there was less hatred, more intelligent discussion.
Time Boris went.
Bringing ridicule on the country to a whole new level.
Standing by his pack of lies regarding Savile, which was deliberate and pre planned lies.

The current amount of distain and outright hatred of one political party or another (depending on which camp you are in) seems rather bizare considering the political differences between the two major parties are much less than they were during the Wilson / Heath era.

Boris is adding fule to the fire and he really needs to step down. Personally I don't have a problem with these so called parties at number 10 , it's the way that the revelations have been handled that is the issue for me and shows a leader that is prepared to say anything at any given time whether it is truthful or not. Very much like Trump in that sense.

 

[rob666]

Had an amazing chat with an elderly gentleman punter this morning over this very topic.
He was a "senior captain in heavy industry" through the three day week and the winter of discontent.
The divisions between left, right and centre were much clearer.
There were always divisions within all the parties, but the infighting did not get the media coverage it does now...it made the political pages, but rarely the front pages.
The political leaders were not the media celebrities they are now, they thought before they spoke, were more polite, and all accepted and expected a high standard of public behaviour.
The old standards all went with Thatcher, Thatcherism, and the collapse of Labour after the miners strike.
He thought that the politicians back then were more decent and honest than a number of more recent career politicians.

 

[JAperson]

The old standards all went with Thatcher, Thatcherism, and the collapse of Labour after the miners strike.
He thought that the politicians back then were more decent and honest than a number of more recent career politicians.

I think there is a clear different when you look at history of british politics as before Thatcher and after.

The political leaders were not the media celebrities they are now, they thought before they spoke, were more polite, and all accepted and expected a high standard of public behaviour.

It's clear that as I believe Gordon Brown has said once or twice we need some form of standards set which have to be met for politicians. It's not good that they are allowed to act in the way that they do, they are not meant to be celebrities and the House of Commons is not Love Island or Big Brother.