Pope Benedict XVI to resign.

[TheMan]

Some sensible considered points being made here.

Just to add though, speaking as someone not religious, but have a very deep interest in human behaviour - there is a lot of truth in Biblical texts.

You may not wish to believe in the theosophical connotations or meanings behind them, which is fair enough, that is a matter for ones own conscience - but to disregard the Bible as a work of pure fiction, is really not true, and arguably disrespectful to our own ancestry.

As we move on, and get a greater understand for example of environmental issues and patterns, many extreme events in Biblical times actually have meaning. Also, there are very clear and obvious references and descriptions of places/temples/peoples/historical wars & events that are depicted.

Attributing meaning around God to these events is one thing, but suggesting the Bible is a total work of fiction is rather far from reality.

EDIT: It is also a complete fallacy to think that it does not contain any useful advice! Indeed, religious or not, I have found many wise words still relevant today from this book. I don't treat the Bible with any less respect that I would, for example, the Tao Te Ching.

Religion sometimes clouds our judgement, and prevents us from actually seeing the good that these books do contain - a rather unfortunate irony.

 

[Meat Pie]

Nick - Seriously? So the fact that the bible is definitely, demonstrably, scientifically wrong in many, many, many places doesn't mean that you can distrust it as a source of information?

Anyway, that's beside the point as you are ignoring the most basic and fundamental principles of critical thinking. Yes, the Bible makes a lot of claims, but it never provides any evidence to verify, demonstrate or explain those claims. Baseless claims is not evidence; claims backed by verifiable data or information is evidence.

The Bible is but evidence that a book detailing the Christian religion exists, not that any of the contents are true. No more, no less.

Your second point is a more interesting one, but its still invalid in this argument, as science is the explanation of the perceivable universe that we experience, and is therefore bound to what can be perceived or reasoned. Yes, beyond what is perceivable there could be anything... Our universe could be a marble being played with by octopus children in bigger universe. Since the possibilities are infinite, it is illogical to make any kind of assumption that any answer we can imagine is true. We can only begin to think about that if we have evidence to construct a theory.

But one thing is absolutely true, and that is that the Bible has massive flaws in relation to the perceivable universe consistently throughout and that makes it an unreliable source, unless of course it can provide any evidence beyond wild unsubstantiated claims.

Dave - It wasn't just religion I was really citing as the problem, it's much wider than that. It's irrational thinking. The ability to come to conclusion without the use of evidence. That creates legitimate irrationality which is a danger, and in the hands of the wrong people, a tool to manipulate and control millions of people. It's a tool make people into a danger, but of course if you got rid of religion, all of society's ills would not cease to exist, but people would be better set to make independent judgements based on evidence provided to them.

Edit: Oh and I forgot to add. Nick - What separates us from animals is our ability to use evidence to recognise which patterns are true, and which patterns are luck. Believing in something irrational is demonstrable by creating false patterns. I'm sure you've seen the videos of pigeons walking in circles because they think that that behaviour means they will be supplied with food, when in reality the food supply was random.

 

[Sam]

A 'war' that is entirely to do with religion and not at all about money or land is the global jihadi terrorist movement most strongly associated with al-Qaeda. That is a conflict that is almost entirely a religious one. I'm sure Osama and his chums would all still be insane psychopaths without religion, but it is tempting to believe that that is probably a conflict (9/11, and subsequently the 'War in Afghanistan') that would not be taking place in the absence of faith.

 

[Nick]

Nick - Seriously? So the fact that the bible is definitely, demonstrably, scientifically wrong in many, many, many places doesn't mean that you can distrust it as a source of information?

Yep.

To give a light hearted example, a five year old child may read a story book about an owl that helped a worm, and the owl felt good about himself.

Purely impossible, an owl would surely eat the worm, and could not feel good about saving the worm.

The book is clear fiction, and a load of rubbish.

However, the five year old child reading would think that if he helped someone in need, that they would also feel good, and so would do it.

This is a very basic interpretation of the Bible, which is much more complex.

For example, everything in the Bible could be completely made up, although some of the morals contained inside may be absolutely right, to the mind of the reader, in which case, they will start to believe in the principals of the book.

The first followers of Christianity, for example, probably believed in the message that Jesus put across, and therefore, decided to pass it along. It's unlikely that he was the son of God, a part of the Trinity or performed any of his miracles, but if his message that he provided was good, then people would listen.

I believed I've made it clear enough now.

 

[Sam]

Even if the Bible is complete fiction, if it inspires someone to do a good thing, then that good thing is real. The contents of the Bible may be fictional, but actions carried out in its influence, good or bad, form our reality over the last 2000 years. That should be obvious.

On a lighter note, anyone interesting in this job posting on Craigslist?

 

[Meat Pie]

Nick - You could have saved me a whole lot of ranting time if you had made it clear that you were arguing that there is moral value in the Bible, rather than that the Bible is a reliable non-fiction document.

I think there is some moral value in pockets of the Bible, providing you cherry pick all the bits that correspond with modern day secularly accepted morals, but if you took the Bible in it's entirety you would have to believe in all sorts of heinous and awful ideas. Although, I don't think anyone can take the Bible in it's entirety since it is a text so riddled with moral contradictions that it would be impossible.

There is still a problem however with accepting the Bible as a moral absolute, since unquestioningly accepting of anything's moral content is a road to irrationality. People need to be questioning and unfortunately there are millions across the world who simply don't question the morality of religious texts and accept them as an absolute. If anything, I think that religion is a unhelpful distraction to achieving a compassionate morality. We should discuss, reason and argue morality, not accept it from a book like an impressionable child.

Not questioning and not thinking critically is a danger to everyone.

 

[Dave]

A 'war' that is entirely to do with religion and not at all about money or land is the global jihadi terrorist movement most strongly associated with al-Qaeda. That is a conflict that is almost entirely a religious one. I'm sure Osama and his chums would all still be insane psychopaths without religion, but it is tempting to believe that that is probably a conflict (9/11, and subsequently the 'War in Afghanistan') that would not be taking place in the absence of faith.

The jihadi terrorist movement came out of the manipulation of the east by Russia and America during the Cold War (and some further historic colonial influence).

Every war will come down to one or more of three things.... Money, land and power. Religion is just the grease you move the pawns with and there is plenty of other grease to replace it.

 

[Meat Pie]

Dave - I entirely agree with your last post. (Surprising, I know )

The problem isn't religion. Religion is just a strand of irrationality, as is patriotism. Irrationality and making conclusions not based on verifiable, reasonable evidence is the problem. Irrationality in all it's guises is the enemy.

Tackling all the 'greases' is what we need to do, and tackling religion is just part of that.