Ride Access Pass and Disabled Access - 2024 Discussion

[Ash]

Do you believe discrimination doesn't exist at all?

Like, there's definitely a lot of shouting and stomping their feet over this and it has been poorly implemented from the park (like RAP has been for years), but there absolutely is discrimination in day to day life. Usually indirectly and more in terms of lack of consideration towards those that need the help. Just taking a wheelchair around to Asda can be an utter pain.

Then you also have people who don't think autism exists even when their own kids are displaying ALL the signs of it.


This is certainly reminisce of when Lego introduced Q-Bot, and the parks need to stay strong in terms of enforcing these restrictions. Otherwise why bother changing things?

I'd imagine majority of complainants will still visit. But if they don't like it (like with anything) they need to vote with their feet (or remaining extremities) and not visit at peak times or at all.

No, you’ve misunderstood what I wrote.

I mean, there are people on social media that appear to be calling for, supporting, organising positive discrimination.

And I’m calling that out as wrong too.

 

[Squiggs]

@Bowser, have you still not received an official communication about this from Merlin?

 

[Bowser]

@Bowser, have you still not received an official communication about this from Merlin?

Nope. I would be completely unaware if i hadn't joined this forum and rolling up to AT in a few weeks expecting business as usual. I don't use FB. I have Twitter and Instagram but didn't see anything on either of those.

Was at Legoland last week and it was still the old process with no signage or mention of the incoming change (that i noticed) nor anything when i logged in to activate our RAP.

 

[RIPCorky]

I'd tend to align with a harsh view of the entitlement; however, the fact people could book entry before RAP is a little poor on Alton Towers'/Merlin's part.

Ultimately it has reached capacity, people need to get used to that reality rather than the stupidity of recent years where the Wicker Man RAP queue looks like a promenade of people congregated to stand watching the ride.

Indeed and that is mostly where any bitterness towards it from non RAP users come from. They're doing the right thing and by doing this, and they'll hopefully filter out some of the people who don't really need to use it, whilst in the process improve it drastically for people who do.

Most of the argument for this will come from people who have booked the opening day or weekend, which quite obviously will be tremendously busy and very crowded anyway....

They need to stick to their guns on this one and not cave

 

[pluk]

The second part of this is if we end up with minimal physical RAP queues the return times have got to be robust. We could get to the point the percieved advantages of using RAP are massively reduced so the demand from those who don't truly need drops away.

 

[Bowser]

The second part of this is if we end up with minimal physical RAP queues the return times have got to be robust. We could get to the point the percieved advantages of using RAP are massively reduced so the demand from those who don't truly need drops away.

The perceived advantage will always exist unless you stop RAP users accessing any rides during their time out which is obviously impossible.

 

[BarryZola]

And there will always be an advantage with a large park like Towers as you can spend a lot of your 'Time Out' travelling to another area of the park.

 

[Matt.GC]

It's those that genuinely need RAP and have booked in good faith with the understanding that their needs would be met that I feel sorry for. They'll have no option but to cave in to some degree I feel as they won't be able to properly compensate people who have booked third party hotels for example.

But it's important they sort the booking system out and stay strong with this policy of limiting numbers. If there's one good thing that will come of this, it's that the "Free Fast track" brigade that have haunted the Facebook pages for years, advising others of how to get their snouts in the trough too, have become unstuck. The game is partially up. They can't just exploit the system and turn up whenever they want to get a reduced queue time.

The problem I fear with this though is that the RAP abusers will just hog all the pre-books for busy days. I'm no longer on odious social media channels, but I'm willing to bet this year that they'll be tonnes of system gamers encouraging others to do this. Imagine a situation where a disabled person wants to go to Scarefest and they have a particular day in mind around outside commitments, but they can't get a RAP because the MAP Mafia ganged up and took all the slots.

 

[BarryZola]

That'll definitely happen. As soon as those Scarefest dates come up everyone will max out their RAP bookings, and then decide if they definitely want to go a few months later.

 

[pluk]

The perceived advantage will always exist unless you stop RAP users accessing any rides during their time out which is obviously impossible.

Not imposible, there could easily be different entry tickets sold to access the different queues and prevent anyone from being in two places at once, but I can't see them going for that much of a change.

 

[Matt.GC]

That'll definitely happen. As soon as those Scarefest dates come up everyone will max out their RAP bookings, and then decide if they definitely want to go a few months later.

It's an inevitablity. They'll learn from this, gang up together, and just find another way to game the system. They've been advising people on how to swindle doctor's letters, and the advantages of using 9 year old little Timmy as a human Fast Track ticket for Aunt Fanny, Dave down the pub, and Sarah from next door for years.

They'll adapt to this change at some point, and the misery for everyone else, especially those that genuinely need RAP will resume. I bet if you compare a RAP queue on a busy day with a quieter day, you'll see far more MAP lanyards in it on the busy day.

 

[Ash]

(Having never needed RAP or been with anyone who has please excuse some of my ignorance)

I’m not sure what it was, but as the “loophole” around people having multiple cards from multiple guest services locations been resolved?

I don’t understand why this isn’t all done through the app in some form or another.

There’s lots of things Merlin could do to improve the situation:

Reduce the allowance to 1+1
Create a full app system whereby the times are entered somehow at the ride and a timer started
Keep the cap prohibitively low, making the experience for those who manage to get one great
Introduce a booking fee/deposit for RAP bookings, once they’re used the money is returned. Thereby preventing hoarding bookings

From what I’ve seen/read the system was not working last year for a variety of reasons. It will take a long time to turn the ship around and a lot of backlash. I read “ombudsman” being involved earlier.

I find it odd this level of systemic abuse doesn’t seem to happen at DLP/Efteling/Europa/Phantasialand so why do people feel more wanting/able to abuse the system here?

 

[Benzin]

The perceived advantage will always exist unless you stop RAP users accessing any rides during their time out which is obviously impossible.

App at Chessie prevents you booking ANY other attraction during the timeout.

Problem solved, but for some reason Merlin haven't rolled it out to Towers and Thorpe (?).

I find it odd this level of systemic abuse doesn’t seem to happen at DLP/Efteling/Europa/Phantasialand so why do people feel more wanting/able to abuse the system here?

British people are selfish?

I do perceive it far more as a culture thing though not experienced the DLP equivalent. Most of the continental parks don't even have time outs beyond maybe a token "can't use on same ride within 15 minutes" and yet are rarely suffering from the ridiculous queues seen at Merlin (Joris is probably the worst offender at Efteling, though I put that down to low height restrictions plus low throughput). Hell Liseberg offered for us to go round twice on their attractions and let her use it on their scaremazes (even unaccompanied because I DESPISE them and the wheelchair friendly one wasn't particularly wheelchair friendly).

Last time went to Phantasialand they barely had a RAP system due to German law being a bit weird (TÜV being a bit old fashioned view of disabled people can't possibly go on rides) but from my conversations with Europa I think this has changed. It's also quite possible that as these systems aren't as widely advertised or as known there aren't as many trying to game the system or there's more respect towards the disabled community within the country.

And there will always be an advantage with a large park like Towers as you can spend a lot of your 'Time Out' travelling to another area of the park.

Will take disabled guests far longer to travel around any park for a variety of reasons. Especially if in a wheelchair as you have to avoid people being people. It's not that big an advantage as often made out.

 

[BarryZola]

Yeah, but most RAP users at Towers aren't wheelchair bound. They're mostly able bodied but just are not able to stand in queues for long periods. More of a mental than physical impairment. Most that you see have no problem walking to and from one attraction/area to another within a normal-ish timeframe. All anecdotal evidence of course, I accept.

 

[Bowser]

App at Chessie prevents you booking ANY other attraction during the timeout.

Problem solved, but for some reason Merlin haven't rolled it out to Towers and Thorpe (?).

As a regular CWOA visitor, whilst it theoretically solves the problem stated, it has little real life impact. The Vampire queue is notoriously atrocious. There's a stated point where the RAP queue is estimated at 30 minutes and i've seen it doubling back multiple times beyond that point (though i think part of that is also the poor operations). In fact it often gets to the point the RAP queue is digitally closed.

In fairness that's probably the only ride that gets particularly bad and the system is otherwise better than the old card one. Legoland is also digital and again only SkyLion gets particularly long queues (and that's with a 1 ride per RAP limit).

Edit: Actually i forgot the Jumanji debacle, where slots open every 20 minutes and instantly disappear meaning you generally have to spend the entire day glued to your phone hammering refresh in the hope of getting one.

Will take disabled guests far longer to travel around any park for a variety of reasons. Especially if in a wheelchair as you have to avoid people being people. It's not that big an advantage as often made out.

I think the point here was that it's an advantage for people who are gaming the system. 90 minutes till your next ride? Can run around the park and get on a few more in that time potentially.

I find it odd this level of systemic abuse doesn’t seem to happen at DLP/Efteling/Europa/Phantasialand so why do people feel more wanting/able to abuse the system here?

I haven't been to any of these parks to comment firsthand but my observation from investigating is that they have/had stricter requirements to access their systems in the first place (particularly DLP) as opposed to the wade up with grandmas blue badge brigade. As mentioned i also agree with the suspicion they have a slightly different attitude to taking advantage of a system aimed at the disabled community.

But to be honest i think this issue is very much a Merlin specific one. When i visit Paulton's and we use RAP, it is very obvious that everyone using it needs it (also the RAP holder is identified with a wristband and written description to ensure the pass isn’t shared).

Edit: I'm wary of even putting this out there but looking at the new RAP tickets they look VERY easy to use fraudulently.

 

[Benzin]

As a regular CWOA visitor, whilst it theoretically solves the problem stated, it has little real life impact. The Vampire queue is notoriously atrocious. There's a stated point where the RAP queue is estimated at 30 minutes and i've seen it doubling back multiple times beyond that point (though i think part of that is also the poor operations). In fact it often gets to the point the RAP queue is digitally closed.

In fairness that's probably the only ride that gets particularly bad and the system is otherwise better than the old card one. Legoland is also digital and again only SkyLion gets particularly long queues (and that's with a 1 ride per RAP limit).

Edit: Actually i forgot the Jumanji debacle, where slots open every 20 minutes and instantly disappear meaning you generally have to spend the entire day glued to your phone hammering refresh in the hope of getting one.

I haven't been to any of these parks to comment firsthand but my observation from investigating is that they have/had stricter requirements to access their systems in the first place (particularly DLP) as opposed to the wade up with grandmas blue badge brigade. As mentioned i also agree with the suspicion they have a slightly different attitude to taking advantage of a system aimed at the disabled community.

But to be honest i think this issue is very much a Merlin specific one. When i visit Paulton's and we use RAP, it is very obvious that everyone using it needs it.

Edit: I'm wary of even putting this out there but looking at the new RAP tickets they look VERY easy to use fraudulently.

The Vampire issue sounds similar to the issues we see at Towers with the cards anyway. Certainly linked to the high number of RAP users. Visited off-peak so unsurprisingly we had few issues using it, though that is interlinked with seeing the absolute mess the system is on weekends and not wanting to deal with it whilst we still can.

The stricter requirement comment just reminded me of getting the disabled pass at Toverland. They must get no one (especially Brits) asking for it as they didn't even ask for the proof and the mrs was in the loo whilst I sorted it. Given that there weren't many using it there either it must be nice for them to be far more trustworthy of guests.

 

[rob666]

The perceived advantage will always exist unless you stop RAP users accessing any rides during their time out which is obviously impossible.

Not impossible.
Put all ride access to all punters on a decent smart app, providing all luddite non phone owners with a small tamagotchi device.
All the technology is there.

 

[Skyscraper]

Not impossible.
Put all ride access to all punters on a decent smart app, providing all luddite non phone owners with a small tamagotchi device.
All the technology is there.

Still not going to stop them from joining shorter main queues during their timeout. Would be kind of impossible in my opinion to be honest.

 

[rob666]

Not if you need your timed access to get in any and every queue.
You turn up at oblivion when already timed into the smiler queue...no access.
"Put all ride access to all punters"...

 

[Blackhole_Sun]

Still not going to stop them from joining shorter main queues during their timeout. Would be kind of impossible in my opinion to be honest.

You would end up having to implement a blackpool type scanning system in this case where you scan to get on every ride.

I think the reason they don’t have the app is because of the issues with signal they have had at the park historically. I think it has improved over the last season.