Ride Access Pass and Disabled Access - 2024 Discussion

[Alphe86]

I do remember being asked in an AT survey about if I’d prefer the system to change to digital.

It is nice not being glued to your phone all day but don’t think that outweighs the other benefits at this point.

It’s not all day though as the lock out will be substantial.
Choose a ride - walk to and can QR. Note lock out and forget about it for 50 mins.

 

[Bowser]

It’s not all day though as the lock out will be substantial.
Choose a ride - walk to and can QR. Note lock out and forget about it for 50 mins.

Well I guess I’m thinking of experiences at CWOA and Lego where you’re having to check VQ slots every 20 minutes too and cross reference with your time outs, checking queue times, checking which rides are down, all in battery draining bright light/low signal conditions.

 

[rob666]

Again, the little qbots at Blackpool functioned fine, and were absolutely great, even for cave dwellers with no mobile phone or debit card.
We sat in the bars and got noisily hammered while waiting in the queue.
We entered an extra entrance at the right time, in the right place.
Make all have one, or a mobile as an alternative, tie it to every ride entry, gets rid of "double ride" cheating.
Simple, and cost effective.
But not cheap, so Merlin.

 

[Bowser]

Again, the little qbots at Blackpool functioned fine, and were absolutely great, even for cave dwellers with no mobile phone or debit card.
We sat in the bars and got noisily hammered while waiting in the queue.
We entered an extra entrance at the right time, in the right place.
Make all have one, or a mobile as an alternative, tie it to every ride entry, gets rid of "double ride" cheating.
Simple, and cost effective.
But not cheap, so Merlin.

Correct me if I’m wrong but Qbot still requires signal at the point of scanning, it’s purely for people who don’t have a mobile phone with data and only existed before the widespread use of smartphones no?

In which case it offers nothing the existing digital system doesn’t do a better job of already.

 

[ScottishChris]

Again, the little qbots at Blackpool functioned fine, and were absolutely great, even for cave dwellers with no mobile phone or debit card.
We sat in the bars and got noisily hammered while waiting in the queue.
We entered an extra entrance at the right time, in the right place.
Make all have one, or a mobile as an alternative, tie it to every ride entry, gets rid of "double ride" cheating.
Simple, and cost effective.
But not cheap, so Merlin.

There are lots of ways a RAP system could be implemented in a much better and efficient way - the problem is that Towers don't seem to care.

Remember these from the good old days at Disney World...

A very simple way (and technology free for the rider) to do this would be to give out 10 min return slots for RAP (you could work out the number of spaces as a percentage of capacity or a ratio of RAP guests to standard guests). Scan your ticket, get a print out with a time. Miss your slot, and you loose it. If there are no slots.... there are no slots.

Of course, we know that Towers will continue with the manual and ineffectual system the currently have.

 

[Bowser]

A very simple way (and technology free for the rider) to do this would be to give out 10 min return slots for RAP (you could work out the number of spaces as a percentage of capacity or a ratio of RAP guests to standard guests). Scan your ticket, get a print out with a time. Miss your slot, and you loose it. If there are no slots.... there are no slots.

Isn’t this just an antiquated version of the VQ system?

 

[rob666]

Correct me if I’m wrong but Qbot still requires signal at the point of scanning, it’s purely for people who don’t have a mobile phone with data and only existed before the widespread use of smartphones no?

In which case it offers nothing the existing digital system doesn’t do a better job of already.

Not sure of the inner workings, but it wasn't just for the "mobileless"...they had at least a couple of thousand of the things behind the screens in guest services...better known to some of you as Embertons...for speedypass, and it could be combined with their form of rap..."eve" if I recall correctly as an old git.
They managed this about a decade ago.

 

[Bowser]

Not sure of the inner workings, but it wasn't just for the "mobileless"...they had at least a couple of thousand of the things behind the screens in guest services...better known to some of you as Embertons...for speedypass, and it could be combined with their form of rap..."eve" if I recall correctly as an old git.
They managed this about a decade ago.

It seems like this was implemented in 2011, which whilst 3g was fairly well established in the UK, i wouldn't say it was ubiquitous at that point and i certainly can't imagine BPB would have been capable of implementing an app to run alongside that in 2011.

I can't see any reason for the existence of Qbot beyond the lack of universal technology. It's not a boast that they managed this 10 years ago, it's more likely poor management and foresight that they invested in something that whilst functional was obviously going to become quickly outdated.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

it's more likely poor management and foresight that they invested in something that whilst functional was obviously going to become quickly outdated.

If it works don't fix it. There's nothing wrong with functional technology that gets outdated, as long as it's still reliable and works. The system Rob's referring to is basically a beeper, many restaurants still use them to let you know your order or table is ready, even Apple still use them when in one of their stores and waiting for a Genius appointment. It isn't reliant on an ever present internet connection and addresses some of the other concerns you posted earlier; namely battery anxiety, screen brightness and being attached to a phone, which takes the fun out of your day. Think of the radios that you see around the park; these are business critical devices, you don't see staff walking around with smartphones trying to get in touch with each other, they use specialist equipment which is reliable and based on old tech.

Well I guess I’m thinking of experiences at CWOA and Lego where you’re having to check VQ slots every 20 minutes too and cross reference with your time outs, checking queue times, checking which rides are down, all in battery draining bright light/low signal conditions.

We rely too much on our smartphones, which have too many variables and too many potential points of failure for a system which only works with reliability.

I can't see any reason for the existence of Qbot beyond the lack of universal technology.

Reliability, accessibility and cost. This is a buy once system and it will always work, apps need constant maintenance, updates to work with the latest devices and bug fixing. On top of that you've also got running costs with the cloud / server aspect of it, which isn't cheap to run.

 

[rob666]

The system worked, well, combined well with other access systems, and was easy to use, more than a decade ago...that is the clear point I am making.
If technology has moved on, why have they still not sorted the issue???
Alton seem to be at least a decade behind the times with the matter of rap access.

 

[jon81uk]

This really.

Dividing between physical and mental makes no sense in terms of accessibility. A physical disability is often more about queue access than an inability to wait, just as a mental disability can be ambulant but unable to understand or tolerate various elements of lengthy queuing. And of course there is plenty of crossover.

Exactly, going back to the way Disney do it, they just ask what accommodation you need (as don't need to give evidence under US law) and if the access need is that you can't stand for long periods they suggest you rent a wheelchair as most Disneyworld queues are level so no need to get return times. Then for those who can't wait in the actual queue for other reasons the return times are properly enforced electronically.

I think those are two big things Merlin need to fix, fully enforce return times for ambulant people and make more main queues level for wheelchair access and where they aren't also enforce return times.

A very simple way (and technology free for the rider) to do this would be to give out 10 min return slots for RAP (you could work out the number of spaces as a percentage of capacity or a ratio of RAP guests to standard guests). Scan your ticket, get a print out with a time. Miss your slot, and you loose it. If there are no slots.... there are no slots.

That doesn't provide equal access though, as you are limiting the number of slots for access users but not everyone else. Just need to enforce that everyone waits the standard queue time.

 

[Alsty]

The problem is you actually do need to impose a capacity limit for RAP users, on a per ride and per hour basis. There is no capacity limit for non-RAP users because they can choose to wait in a queue that is hours long if they so wish, which RAP users cannot. Since the rides have finite throughput you need to rate limit the RAP queue to ensure at the return time, there is not a long physical wait as well.

I gave an example of how this could work earlier in the thread. In short, allocate x% of each rides throughput to RAP per hour.

 

[jon81uk]

The problem is you actually do need to impose a capacity limit for RAP users, on a per ride and per hour basis. There is no capacity limit for non-RAP users because they can choose to wait in a queue that is hours long if they so wish, which RAP users cannot. Since the rides have finite throughput you need to rate limit the RAP queue to ensure at the return time, there is not a long physical wait as well.

I gave an example of how this could work earlier in the thread. In short, allocate x% of each rides throughput to RAP per hour.

Or (again as Disney do) you alter the merge ratio and take 80-90% from the fastpass/RAP queues to get those down and slow the main queue down to just 20% of the rides capacity. That also increases the wait time so RAP users getting a new return time come back even later.

 

[Bowser]

If it works don't fix it. There's nothing wrong with functional technology that gets outdated, as long as it's still reliable and works. The system Rob's referring to is basically a beeper, many restaurants still use them to let you know your order or table is ready, even Apple still use them when in one of their stores and waiting for a Genius appointment. It isn't reliant on an ever present internet connection and addresses some of the other concerns you posted earlier; namely battery anxiety, screen brightness and being attached to a phone, which takes the fun out of your day. Think of the radios that you see around the park; these are business critical devices, you don't see staff walking around with smartphones trying to get in touch with each other, they use specialist equipment which is reliable and based on old tech.

We rely too much on our smartphones, which have too many variables and too many potential points of failure for a system which only works with reliability.

Reliability, accessibility and cost. This is a buy once system and it will always work, apps need constant maintenance, updates to work with the latest devices and bug fixing. On top of that you've also got running costs with the cloud / server aspect of it, which isn't cheap to run.

The system worked, well, combined well with other access systems, and was easy to use, more than a decade ago...that is the clear point I am making.
If technology has moved on, why have they still not sorted the issue???
Alton seem to be at least a decade behind the times with the matter of rap access.

Ok, we seem to be working under the premise that AT and TP don't have enough reliable phone or internet coverage compared to CWOA or Legoland, of which i don't believe there is any evidence?

Even if we assume that to be true, the suggestion then seems to be of creating a bespoke system where RAP users who struggle with queues not only have to queue to collect a custom device from a set location but then queue again to return it?

The issue isn't with the digital system at CWOA/Legoland, which by all accounts functions more than adequately so surely the better solution would be to accommodate that at the other parks, especially as the existing infrastructure is in place and can be easily shared by users. Been to a Merlin park and used RAP before? Great, a few clicks and you're logged in and ready to go at your convenience with no guest service queues at any point.

The issue is with the capacity of users, which a bespoke system doesn't address as far as i can see.

Gripes like excessive phone usage are a downside but as i said, they're preferable to the existing card system and the flaws it brings.

 

[John]

Or (again as Disney do) you alter the merge ratio and take 80-90% from the fastpass/RAP queues to get those down and slow the main queue down to just 20% of the rides capacity. That also increases the wait time so RAP users getting a new return time come back even later.

No. No no no no no. Main queues are depressing enough as it is.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Ok, we seem to be working under the premise that AT and TP don't have enough reliable phone or internet coverage compared to CWOA or Legoland, of which i don't believe there is any evidence?

No, not at all. The premise I was working from was your own frustrations with using a phone based system.

Alton Towers and Thorpe Park do have good coverage, you can get 5G/4G services in both places (3G is being switched off, so we'll park that). What they do suffer from though is cell access. If you've ever been during an event, especially Fireworks, you'll notice that although you've got full reception, you can't load anything. This is because the infrastructure (which they don't control) can't cope. You're all connected to the same tower, but it can only give access to so many devices at the same time. It's only a few occasions throughout the year, but cell access isn't reliable, as any Glastonbury / festival veteran will tell you. Then there are those with limited data plans too.

WiFi is entirely possible, but you do have to sign in and grant permission for your email address to be used for marketing purposes. Given we're talking about accessibility here, and making accommodations for everyone, this isn't the way forward either. There will be some people who feel uncomfortable with giving over their information, or may just not want to, why should they face this trade off for something which is supposed to ease accessibility?

Not everyone has a smartphone. Children under 13 are not allowed to use the park's WiFi, for GDPR consent reasons. There will be children who qualify for RAP who either visit without their parents (on a school trip) or go around on their own. Not every child has a smart phone, and certainly not one which could allow the kids to install apps unchecked without permission. Given that RAP is about making sure that everyone has the same level of access, this is problematic too.

The paper system is terribly implemented, but theoretically it should work very well. The problem you've got is staff at the beginning of the ride, as we all know, that kind of screws up the system.

In an ideal world, if you REALLY wanted to go down the smartphone route, Apple would be forced to open up RFID access on the iPhone. Every modern smart phone has an RFID/NFC chip in it, used for Apple Pay / Google Wallet, these (on Android) can be utilised to share information between devices, wirelessly, and without the internet. You waddle on up to the end of a RAP entrance, hold your phone to an RFID contact point, the Alton Towers app will then give you a time to come back at (like the old VQ system). Your phone can go buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz when you need to return and you'll get straight on. The benefit of this system is that your phone does not need an active/persistent internet connection to be able to validate your pass and inform you of your place in the queue (the processing is done locally on the device). The downside is that you need a phone, and as discussed before this isn't the most accessible.

Even if we assume that to be true, the suggestion then seems to be of creating a bespoke system where RAP users who struggle with queues not only have to queue to collect a custom device from a set location but then queue again to return it?

You presently have to queue for a piece of paper, so I'm not sure about the concern here, to return it you just drop it off (think 3D glasses) at a designated point. You could easily have a bank of beeper type devices at the entrance, or near guest services points, where you scan your RAP pre-book and a device gets released (no need to have a staff member, no need to have long queues).

The queues exist because there are humans to argue with, there are humans to manipulate and who don't have the initiative, or desire, to enforce the rules. If you give someone a two hour cool down on a RAP, you're going to get a lot of horrible abuse. If you're then the person to enforce that on another ride, you're going to get the abuse too. The system is corrupt, but not from nefarious staff, it's corrupted through ineptitude.

 

[jibbsie]

The issue isn't with the digital system at CWOA/Legoland, which by all accounts functions more than adequately so surely the better solution would be to accommodate that at the other parks, especially as the existing infrastructure is in place and can be easily shared by users. Been to a Merlin park and used RAP before? Great, a few clicks and you're logged in and ready to go at your convenience with no guest service queues at any point.

when was the digital service introduced? because the park uses phone/scanners for the fast track at merge, so the internet coverage dosn't seem to be a problem, to me it seems as though they want to trial the digital system or are working on it, from a point of managment it makes more sence and is cheaper to only run one service, so i suspect they may roll the digital system over all the parks.

 

[jon81uk]

No. No no no no no. Main queues are depressing enough as it is.

Oh I agree, I’ve been stuck on some of those Disney queues where 20 FastPass/RAP users are let through then four from standby and it is terrible, just that’s a solution to managing too many people all returning at the same time.

 

[jibbsie]

Oh I agree, I’ve been stuck on some of those Disney queues where 20 FastPass/RAP users are let through then four from standby and it is terrible, just that’s a solution to managing too many people all returning at the same time.

same, it is really anoying, they keep the ratio secret but i have heard they change depending on opps and it can go to 1 norm for 100 fast pass (although i doubt that) it is really bad, I recall queing for space mountain a probably 10 min queue was over 140 mins! (the fast pass queue was significantly longer than the normal queue)

 

[DiogoJ42]

I feel like the ultimate solution would be to make all queues fully wheelchair accessable, maybe with a lift at what would be the no-longer-needed "merge point" for elevated stations. Then actually run all rides at their full capacity. Problem solved: one queue for all that moves quickly!

... Though obviously this is not possible for pretty much all existing attractions, given the terrain (and let's be honest, budget) of the park. A guy can dream.