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Ride Access Pass and Disabled Access - 2024 Discussion

Booking accessible tickets at gigs and football can be a right arse too. Some venues require you to ring up, need to ring up Palace everytime we want to get the wheelchair ticket. And those only have a set amount of spaces so yeah.
 
Just to play devil's advocate. It's not really the same situation. At Towers, the amount of RAP riders you can get onto a ride is pretty much unlimited as long as they're willing to stand in a big enough queue. At gigs or at the footy there is an actual limited number of physical seats for each event.
 
BarryZola said:
Just to play devil's advocate. It's not really the same situation. At Towers, the amount of RAP riders you can get onto a ride is pretty much unlimited as long as they're willing to stand in a big enough queue. At gigs or at the footy there is an actual limited number of physical seats for each event.
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There is a still a limit to how many people can physically be cycled through a ride on any day, the same as a stadium has a maximum number of people that can be let in.

The discussion here is how much of that capacity is given to RAP users, just as a stadium would decide how much of their capacity would be given to accessible areas. In both scenarios there is a cap.
 
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It's way too boring to get into any further, but again, it's not the same. The RAP system used to be uncapped and although the queues got way too long sometimes, people were still able to queue on the day and eventually get on the ride in 98% of scenarios. In a football stadium there may be 50 seats allocated for disabled use. As soon as those are booked/filled it's physically impossible for anyone else to use them. That's an unavoidable cap. I wasn't really commenting on the wider issue, only the comparisons with football and gigs. My point stands that they are not the same. It's fact.
 
BarryZola said:
It's way too boring to get into any further, but again, it's not the same. The RAP system used to be uncapped and although the queues got way too long sometimes, people were still able to queue on the day and eventually get on the ride in 98% of scenarios. In a football stadium there may be 50 seats allocated for disabled use. As soon as those are booked/filled it's physically impossible for anyone else to use them. That's an unavoidable cap. I wasn't really commenting on the wider issue, only the comparisons with football and gigs. My point stands that they are not the same. It's fact.
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there is a limit though, not a physical limit (although you could argue that for instance having e.g 1 disabled seat is too little and sue)

I haven't used RAP, but from what I saw once you hit like June / July till November, RAP was extremely long for people who struggle to queue (I have also seen it where it was longer than the main queue) that cap means that RAP remains usable for people who require short queue times (which is its job)

the problem is there is a limit to capacity of a ride, and then that can be extended to the capacity of RAP, you can't dedicate 90% of the capacity of a ride to RAP because that isn't practical so where is the line, once that is decided that will naturally require a cap on RAP to prevent RAP from having to queue.

thinking about it there is also a practical limit, the time cards of RAP require someone to fill them out this takes a reasonable amount of time, directly limiting the capacity

I recall before the cap the wicker man RAP queue would stretch to the main entrance regularly, this year I haven't even seen more than 2 groups queueing for RAP
 
Actually there is an argument that aligns with stadium and theatres etc, rides are mostly seated. In many cases it could be justified to only have so many RAP guests on each cycle as too many could slow down evacuation in the event of an emergency. This is the same reason stadiums put limits on. You could argue all stadiums should make all seats 100% accessible, but they have two arguments against this:

1) Commercial impact.
2) Evacuation times.

Theme parks can make the same arguments.

So although in theory the limit is the rides capacity (so long as you say a big FU to every other guest on park), I suspect theme parks would argue that for safe operation there is a limit.

Discrimination law expects “reasonable adjustment”, the court would have to decide what is reasonable but I doubt a court would say “at the exclusion of all others and with risk of delayed evacuation” to be considered reasonable.

This persons case will almost certainly fail, but let’s see.
 
Dave said:
Discrimination law expects “reasonable adjustment”, the court would have to decide what is reasonable but I doubt a court would say “at the exclusion of all others and with risk of delayed evacuation” to be considered reasonable.
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Yes, this

it is a very easy path to go down:

The rides have a limited capacity, it is reasonable that only a part of this capacity is dedicated to RAP users (otherwise no one else could ride the ride).

due to the limited throughput of guests on queues, a limited number of RAP guests can be allowed in, as adding too many would mean they need to queue, defeating the reason of RAP. thus a reasonable adjustment is to limit RAP guests as to prevent long RAP queues from forming.
Even if 100% of the capacity was dedicated to RAP they would still need to limit numbers of RAP as they would end out forming a queue.

2 very reasonable (I would argue) changes
 
I actually got a Merlin RAP email!

Main piece of news is:

Thanks to your valuable feedback on the Ride Access Pass (RAP), we’re working on some exciting improvements. We're designing new tools that will make the RAP journey smoother and smarter – simplifying the way guests’ access, book, and manage their visit (including the ability to cancel). We’re currently putting the final touches on this and can’t wait to share more soon.

We’ll be piloting the updates shortly and will be reaching out to you for your input – your feedback will again be essential in shaping if and how this rolls out.
 
Benzin said:
Meanwhile at Europa Park all you need to do is show an Access Card and they let you on the respective queue.

And barely seen anyone using it. The UK problem continues.
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It's a tough one because whilst it is very much a UK centric (and presumably US though for slightly different reasons) issue at theme parks, it is also a symptom of the UK arguably having some of, if not the best accessibility in the world, particularly in relation to neurodiversity.

On the flip side i personally think we have a greater culture of people "gaming the system" in this regard so those two things combined are problematic.

And of course the frequently discussed matter of this being a Merlin specific issue. You can do the same as what you described at Drayton Manor for example and Paultons typically has high availability (2 days currently booked up for the rest of the year versus the Merlin debacle). Europa falls into the same category of excellent ride availability and throughput meaning people who might otherwise require RAP can enjoy a day without it or only use it for a handful of rides.

Are there any parks in Europe that require pre-booking for RAP? I can only think of Disneyland Paris and that's more of a technicality as i'd be surprised if they ever actually reach capacity.
 
Bowser said:
It's a tough one because whilst it is very much a UK centric (and presumably US though for slightly different reasons) issue at theme parks, it is also a symptom of the UK arguably having some of, if not the best accessibility in the world, particularly in relation to neurodiversity.

On the flip side i personally think we have a greater culture of people "gaming the system" in this regard so those two things combined are problematic.

And of course the frequently discussed matter of this being a Merlin specific issue. You can do the same as what you described at Drayton Manor for example and Paultons typically has high availability (2 days currently booked up for the rest of the year versus the Merlin debacle). Europa falls into the same category of excellent ride availability and throughput meaning people who might otherwise require RAP can enjoy a day without it or only use it for a handful of rides.

Are there any parks in Europe that require pre-booking for RAP? I can only think of Disneyland Paris and that's more of a technicality as i'd be surprised if they ever actually reach capacity.
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I believe there is possibly bit of a culture in the UK of some people trying to fast track any way possible for free whether that is taking advantage of single rider (SR) queues or using RAP when they may not need it (or be eligible).

From a SR perspective, there's more families using the SRQ without fully knowing how it works and at times, arguing when they're split up. There's also groups of kids using it and some are even pushing in to join their friends.

It's also likely a product of years of poor ride availability, slow operations, high queues and a push to sell fast track within Merlin as totally agree, this is a Merlin specific issue.

I wonder if some sort of culture shift might be needed and how that could happen 🤔 I think it's really tighter RAP rules, clearer guidance for Single Rider, making fast track a more premium product, improved operations/availability, more engaging queue experience and stronger enforcement on queue jumping with the aim of making it easier to queue and to once again, make it more of the norm.
 
To swerve from the current topic of discussion, as part of the meet to Drayton Manor, I decided to check out what they had accessibility wise:
  • Unlike Merlin parks and Paultons Park, and like Europa-Park's, Drayton Manor has no pre-book system. As long as you have an Access Card or Drayton's free equivalent, you just rock up to Guest Services by The Bounty. I was thoroughly entertained at standing at a tall counter even 5"2 me struggled to look over, the lady giving the briefest glimpse at my Access Card, telling me "These aren't Fast Passes, you know!" all the while giving me a blue Easy Access +2 wristband without a time card or an accessibility guide. They did have wheelchairs and scooters for hire but I elected not to hire one as I had taken along my telescopic seat. The scooters looked very similar to what Paultons and Towers offer, at least.

  • Much like Wodan at Europa-Park, The Wave, a roller coaster with a queue and an exit with arduous staircases, asks YOU- Yes, YOU, a person who may be ambulant disabled or have very limited to no mobility to... climb the exit's arduous staircase that you have to ascend whilst fighting the current of exiting riders. Once you get to the station, you have to awkwardly stand aside in a roped section that may be packed with fellow Easy Access or Fast Pass users and awkwardly squish against the staircase to let riders exit if the queue is too long. You will also be blessed, much like Wodan at Europa-Park, with loud roller coaster sounds that you should absolutely wear ear plugs/phones/defenders for (Wodan has the sounds of the train dispatching from the lift hill and speeding above you, The Wave has the teeth grittingly painful break run squeal). At least, unlike Shockwave where you had to get into a high seat and uncomfortably sit standing up, The Wave is now a sit down coaster with a lap restraint and is generally comfortable.

  • Gold Rush, too, also involves climbing a flight of stairs to get in and out of the station. As Cheese and I stayed on resort, we read and were told the allegations that Gold Rush would be open from 10am for ERT alongside select Thomas Land attractions. We went there first prior to Guest Services and The Wave, so I was willing to walk through the main queue. It is ostensibly step free up to the staircase itself, albeit with a hilly incline, and does offer a lovely view of the Apocalypse tombstone (RIP). The staircase, unlike The Wave, was wider and easier to walk up. But, as Gold Rush was so 'eh', I elected not to re-ride it.

  • And the accessibility option was the same for most coasters and attractions, you just go to the exit and wait. Accelerator had the decency to offer wheelchair access alongside an ambulant stepped queue. The Haunting had no option whatsoever.

  • I've come to appreciate Thomas Land far more now than I did on my last visit nearly a decade ago. The Thomas Land gift shop had a window poster offering 'Thomas' Quiet Quest', a symbol led trail done in partnership with the National Autistic Society, which was nice to see. I honestly would've done it had I the time. We did go and see the model exhibition at the top of the gift shop too and were it not sharing a space with a ride exit, it would make for a fantastic quiet break space.

  • For the daytime fireworks, there was a roped off platforms for disabled guests with the wristband. I did get offered entry by the attractions host but as I was surrounded by about 15-20 meet attendees, I decided not to. I normally hate attending fireworks displays because of how busy and noisy they are however I was willing to make an exception to see this and just popped my ear buds in, blasting Alton Towers' own fireworks music and EP's What a Feeling to mask the noise and mish-mashed music playlist.
Overall, Drayton Manor has room for improvement in accessibility. Most notably lifts for those unable to use stairs and/or creating dedicated access queues for those who find the idea of swimming through crowds of exiting riders very stressful. The Guest Services counter also needs to be lowered and, no, the little gate the attendants use to get in/out does not count. At least, as @Cheese pointed out to me yesterday, they'll always win points with autistic guests endeared to Thomas the Tank Engine.
 
TBH I don't think it is a UK problem I think the main problem for merlin is the popularity of the merlin, MAP and RAP,

I was in galacticas SRQ (I am a single rider, and it almost always is walk on or a 5 min queue) and whilst waiting in the fast track bit, I overheard an RAP group next to me talking:
Person 1: "What ride do you want to do next"
Person 2: "I want to do ___ ride" (can't remember the ride specifically)
Person 1: "That has a 30 min queue"
Person 2: "Perfect, we can queue for that, then use RAP for something else"

That is an anecdote, how ever it shows the problem which is IMO that merlin have quite a few UK parks, and have the MAP system which is accessible to quite a few people.

This means the "cost" of getting RAP for merlin parks can be lessened by going multiple times, by cost I mean the time taken to get tested, approved, and sort out all required paper work.

this sounds strange, let me explain it, if you were going to AT once, then would you want to spend hours handling documents, etc for a "fast pass", it would likely be cheaper interims of £/h to just buy a fast pass.

however if you were getting / have a MAP and plan on going every couple of weeks, in addition as the RAP pass works across all merlin parks in the UK, it gets further usefulness,
This means it now makes a lot of sense to spend a few hours to sort out essentially a free "fast pass" for a lot of theme park trips.

The thing is though, it also probably doesn't take that many MAP users to take advantage over it, given they likely go reasonably often (to justify the time of acquiring an RAP pass) depending on the RAP capacity of each ride, it probably doesn't take long before a ride is full.

I think a good partial fix could be slowly releasing availibility (so initially releasing 10%, then 20% etc as the day gets closer preventing stupidly early booking) and adding a mandate of a max of 3 bookings (didn't MAP also have this?) to also prevent block booking
 
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We are attempting Thorpe Park for the first time! I expect it's going to be grotesquely busy but we'll see. Couple of questions:

- Hyperia no longer has a one ride restriction correct?
- Where is the best place to collect your timecard from? Especially in light of: Please note that, due to high volumes of school trips, the Accessibility Kiosk will be closed until July 22nd. Instead, a Timecard station will be operating from underneath the park's Welcome Arch from 9:15am. Ride Access Pass collection is also available from Guest Services in the lower dome as normal.
 
Either their little pop up thing (no idea where the welcome sign means) or a trip to Guest Services The Ride.

Probably GS if there's a bottleneck at entrance.
 
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