tayspru
TS Member
Presumably if they have a genuine need for the pass they would only join the shortest queues anyway
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Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)
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pluk
TS Member
...if...
There lies one of the problems, and that problem pretty much cannot be very solved. There has to be a mechnaism that precludes someone 'queueing' using RAP from queueing elsewhere at the same time. Remove the advantage, remove the desirability, remove the demand.
imanautie
TS Member
Yes but I can't imagine such a setup that in itself isn't an accessibility issue, it's pretty much just a waiting area which is problematic
tayspru
TS Member
Or more practically remove the “if”
In my opinion a Blue Badge , DLA or PIP should not alone be enough to qualify for RAP , as many conditions that qualify someone for those don’t automatically mean that person can’t queue.
It should be case by case, based on the needs of the guest as described by the guardian / carer to a dedicated and trained guest relations host, possibly supplemented by a letter from a medical professional .
This works perfectly at Disney and Universal as it becomes very clear those who are , for want of a better term, “blagging” it
imanautie
TS Member
*or the guest themselfs!
I think merlin might be considering NOT issuing rap locally and instead like carers passes doing it centrally which should help a fair bit
pluk
TS Member
Removing the if is not at all practical. As soon as you start having Merlin staff making medical assessments on individuals you will have papers full of compo faces and the negative press they are so scared of.
Removing the advantage is well within their control, and should have the effect of removing any demand on the system by those who don't actually need it.
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imanautie
TS Member
How would you remove the advantage if you had control over merlin accessibility?
pluk
TS Member
The easiest way is to control queueline access by park ticket. You have a normal ticket? Join the queue. You have a RAP ticket? Join the RAP virtual queue. One ticket doesn't work in the other queue, or at least doesnt work while you are already in a RAP virtual queue. Then you just have to ensure the RAP wait times are properly reflective of the normal queue.
Sounds like a bit of cost and effort, but would be well worth it to reclaim RAP for those who truly need it and stop regular guests being disadvantaged.
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tayspru
TS Member
Or even easier, they make a press release promoting the specially trained staff and how changes are being made to make the system work and provide an even better guest experience.
As has been mentioned above , this could also be completely centralised and carried out online. It could be promoted as a dedicated additional needs platform, providing everything that is needed to make your day as good as it can be before arriving at the park - also removing the need to queue up at guest services at the start of the day !
Benzin
TS Member
Yikes.
You know how hard it is for those who are actually disabled to get benefits right? My Mrs has MS and her recent PIP application got 0s across the board because of some really questionable reasons (our personal favourite being that as she didn't apply for a wheelchair through the NHS and purchased one herself because the NHS ones aren't suitable for her needs).
The hoops requiring jumping through for these things on a personal level do not require extra scrunity from anyone. These are not given out easily, regardless of what the external view of the benefit system is. Indeed the change to Universal Credit resulted in a number of disabled people losing their benefits because the system in of itself is flawed. But apparently Tories think those with amputated limbs are completely fit to work.
I digress. The easiest thing for Towers and Merlin to do is to actually implement the system properly. Write down the times and enforce the associated rules. No band? No ride? More than 3 carers? Well only 3 can ride. When we visited last year there were a number of times where the card wasn't signed or time shortened (and we wonder why it gets abused?).
They could implement that tomorrow with zero effort bar providing staff on exit some pens or ability to check queue times (or do what I did and actually check with the ride op).
If there are still problems then they could do one of two things to become far more stringent. And these are done at Blackpool and Paultons.
Blackpool have a maximum one carer rule.
Paultons only allow disabled access once per ride in the park, but up to 3 carers.
Neither of these parks have a time card system. Indeed Merlin are about the only one in my experience that do.
They could also follow Walibi and make the RAP user wait at the exit for the queue time. However without appropriate waiting areas this system is very flawed. Efteling probably have the best waiting areas (Joris aside) but they do have the space for them.
Majority of parks accept a doctor's note. Not qualifying for a Blue Badge or benefits does not mean you are capable of queuing. Given the time process it can often take (3 years from her original diagnosis to Blue Badge and we're only just on the benefits table now, meaning a full 5 years!) to get to these positions I think it's very poor judgement to not allow these as proof. What else do you put into practice if those are not enough? An inability to queue could encompass many reasons after all, some of which wouldn't necessarily qualify you for these things.
Merlin have a good system in place. However when they don't use it properly (and the term "free Fastrack" gets bandied about online) it affects everyone moreso. But other UK parks don't seem to have the same problems, nor do the European parks I've experienced them in. So is it cultural? It is just the UK is full of arseholes willing to abuse a system designed for those who require it so they don't have to wait? Yes.
tayspru
TS Member
“Not qualifying for a Blue Badge or benefits does not mean you are capable of queuing“
My point is completely the opposite. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be used - but they shouldn’t be an automatic RAP either. I have friends who have blue badges, and for various reasons have been through the benefit process with them. These people however do NOT have disabilities that mean they can’t queue. I’m well aware how difficult it can be to access those, but they shouldn’t be used as a catch all to allow RAP use.
Anyone with a genuine need for RAP I expect would have no issue with explaining to a qualified team why they need it for their day. It’s there to help after all.
My point is completely the opposite. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be used - but they shouldn’t be an automatic RAP either. I have friends who have blue badges, and for various reasons have been through the benefit process with them. These people however do NOT have disabilities that mean they can’t queue. I’m well aware how difficult it can be to access those, but they shouldn’t be used as a catch all to allow RAP use.
Anyone with a genuine need for RAP I expect would have no issue with explaining to a qualified team why they need it for their day. It’s there to help after all.
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jon81uk
TS Member
Yep I think Disney asking "how can we best accommodate you needs?" is a better system, it looks at what is needed so you can enjoy the day, not what conditions you do have.
If someone says "I can't stand for very long" then they are offered a wheelchair or scooter rental NOT an access pass. Many queues at Disney are level access and for those that aren't the ride host will see the wheelchair and sort out the accommodations there and then, again no pass needed.
For those who can't wait in a queue for other reasons then there is an access pass, but its now all in their app and linked to the fastpass system, so it automatically gives a return time of the current wait less 10 minutes. Yes guests can then join another queue with a short wait as well, but it cut down on the abuse as no instant rides are possible using the access pass.
If AT just managed to enforce the wait prior to riding it would probably help a lot.
tayspru
TS Member
They really should consider using the queue measuring system Disney has in place too.
The entrance host gives one party a card/keychain every 10 minutes or so at the standard entrance, which are numbered, and the guest returns this to the staff member at the merge point or station.
The RAP host would use the time from the most recently returned keychain to give an accurate estimation of how long they would have waited.
This could be used to update the queue times app more accurately too. The only real change would be you would need a host at the end of the RAP queue to make sure guests aren’t joining that early
The entrance host gives one party a card/keychain every 10 minutes or so at the standard entrance, which are numbered, and the guest returns this to the staff member at the merge point or station.
The RAP host would use the time from the most recently returned keychain to give an accurate estimation of how long they would have waited.
This could be used to update the queue times app more accurately too. The only real change would be you would need a host at the end of the RAP queue to make sure guests aren’t joining that early
jon81uk
TS Member
Its a little more sophisticated than just numbered card. They tap the cards on a reader at the entrance and then tap them at the boarding point, the system then works out how long that person waited and updates the queue time board.
However I think I read Disney have moved away from this and now just use the Bluetooth in MagicBands to track people in the queue and get an average queue length. I think AT were trying this using the app and Bluetooth but I'm not sure how successful it was for them.
tayspru
TS Member
The concept would work with or without any tech though. And it probably wouldn’t be that hard to implement a two touch system that could be used if they wished to. Obviously the guesses of queue length based on where the queue ends isn’t working right now (or arguably ever)!
Blackpool have a one carer rule, but you can bung two random tykes on your band as a fiver speedypass each, or you could last year, so that is four people on a basic speedypass for a tenner, not great, or fair to the majority.
Blackpools new system I haven't tried yet, but it was apparently down on the first day.
Blackpools new system I haven't tried yet, but it was apparently down on the first day.
Alsty
TS Member
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A barrier for any new system will always the cost to introduce it. It also needs to be simple and tamperproof. It got me thinking, almost everybody has got a smartphone these days and that's probably where the answer lies.
Why don't they add RAP and Fastrack to the Alton Towers app? Choose the ride and it generates a one time QR code. At the merge point, the host can scan it to validate it. This would also then be able to enforce the delay, e.g. the app could prevent generating a new code until the timeout period has elapsed.
No paper tickets, no cards... simple. It's not possible for the staff to forget or not be bothered to update them as it just happens automatically as part of scanning the code.
I guess the park could loan cheap devices to those who for whatever reason don't have a smartphone.
Why don't they add RAP and Fastrack to the Alton Towers app? Choose the ride and it generates a one time QR code. At the merge point, the host can scan it to validate it. This would also then be able to enforce the delay, e.g. the app could prevent generating a new code until the timeout period has elapsed.
No paper tickets, no cards... simple. It's not possible for the staff to forget or not be bothered to update them as it just happens automatically as part of scanning the code.
I guess the park could loan cheap devices to those who for whatever reason don't have a smartphone.
pluk
TS Member
I cannot see a way that the removal of entitlement from those who currently successfully claim it would not result in pitchforks, compo faces and media backlash all round. That is what Merlin are currently running scared from rather than tackling the problem, and they are probably right to do so. It has to be another way, where demand is managed rather than entitlement declined.
pluk
TS Member
Electronic management would certainly be an improvement in terms of getting the wait time right, but any system which allows those using it to utilise another queue or ride while waiting. It could look even more like free fastrack!
One way around that could be a tight geolocation to the ride in question once the virtual queue is entered. If you wander off and do something else you lose your place. That really could work, and negate any necessity to manage the entrance to non-RAP queuelines.
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