Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
A general virtual queueing system was actually explored by Towers a while back, but they settled in bringing in the Retrosquad rides instead.
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Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)
- Thread starter Skyscraper
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Nick🎢
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Spinball Whizzer
It's an interesting concept that will become the norm at some point. It just makes sense from a business pov. People will be spending money while waiting and very likely having a better time than stood in a queue which feeds into reviews, word of mouth etc.
To do it on a full scale though will require some really thoughtful solution engineering to take into account throughput, breakdowns etc. Groups on one device, splitting them for different rides at the same time etc. Lots of edge cases. If Merlin want some consultancy I would be game
BarryZola
TS Member
It would be far from the first time that Alton/Merlin had acted on things floated on this forum.If Merlin want some consultancy I would be game
Lol - which we don't go on cos they are all horrible in their own ways - the technology is there though through Chessington and Legoland apps, I think it makes it fairer for all RAP and non RAP as the system is automated
Plastic Person
TS Member
Given that the spectrum of guests who qualify for RAP passes is naturally expanding as society adjusts to accommodate hidden disabilities, its obvious Merlin, with a sizeable MAP base who utilise RAP, need to think carefully about designing their rides to be as accessible as possible in the near future. Then again, they are about to install a 28 passenger launched coaster as the biggest investment at Chessington in twenty years, so I can't report that it seems to be a priority so far.
I keep thinking about the figures that @Matt N reported after having queued for Spinball Whizzer last month. As I recall, he claimed that the ride cycled through 600 guests in an hour: 200 from the standby queue, 200 from Fastrack and 200 from the RAP queue. Obviously not everyone in that RAP queue are themselves going to be unable to wait, they may be an accompanying party, but that seems like an unsustainable amount of guests to process (and there's nobody I trust more on this forum with dispatch figures than @Matt N )
I am going to risk my right-on reputation here with an anecdote of my own inspired by @NickB and his 'lizard brain' observation. I do my best to avoid waiting in lengthy theme park queues, although luckily for me, I can. One such recent occasion for an hour-plus drain on a day was at Walibi Belgium, for Pulsar, the Mack launched water coaster. Clocking that it was operating just one boat (with the front four seats roped off to boot!), we just had to swallow a very slow, hot line, although the ride was new to me and fortunately well worth it.
As I rounded the top half of the queue building looking down on the station, I noticed that the park were forced to load just eight people from the standard line each dispatch, four from Fastrack and four from RAP, or whatever the Walibi equivalent is. I'd estimate the RAP line itself was around ten minutes, in comparison to the eighty I waited. I spotted one young guy and a person I presume was his father had managed to have two rides in that time in as long as it'd taken myself and two-hundred very bored French school kids to move about fifteen feet.
Now obviously, I am not someone without empathy and am aware of just how demonised those with disabilities are, especially in the UK throughout a decade of crippling austerity. I am able to think, "Hey, it's a bit annoying that these two able-bodied men are basically 'whoring' this ride while I shuffle along, sweating like a chump, but I have no idea what their interior lives consist of, nor how difficult their day-to-day existence is dealing with a complex disorder. As such, just let them have another go on this big Log Flume!"
But frankly, in the moment, I just found it really bloody annoying, and I know I wouldn't have done the same in their situation. There are some tone-deaf posts in this thread, no doubt, but that old adage that fresh-faced park workers are taught that "people turn their brains off when they enter a theme park" could, I think, also be applied to ideas of ethics and fairness. And for better or worse, I'm cynical enough to reckon that applies to many individuals regardless of their background or daily lived situation.
I regularly frequent a large, infamous nightclub in Berlin that proudly acts as a refuge for outsiders: queer, trans, POC, neurodivergent, punks, goths or just general proud weirdos. There's a stringent door policy to ensure that these people are rightly prioritised. Of course, you have to queue to get to that door, and almost everyone there seems to have a reason that they should quickly skip it with a quick slip under the barrier.
I keep thinking about the figures that @Matt N reported after having queued for Spinball Whizzer last month. As I recall, he claimed that the ride cycled through 600 guests in an hour: 200 from the standby queue, 200 from Fastrack and 200 from the RAP queue. Obviously not everyone in that RAP queue are themselves going to be unable to wait, they may be an accompanying party, but that seems like an unsustainable amount of guests to process (and there's nobody I trust more on this forum with dispatch figures than @Matt N )
I am going to risk my right-on reputation here with an anecdote of my own inspired by @NickB and his 'lizard brain' observation. I do my best to avoid waiting in lengthy theme park queues, although luckily for me, I can. One such recent occasion for an hour-plus drain on a day was at Walibi Belgium, for Pulsar, the Mack launched water coaster. Clocking that it was operating just one boat (with the front four seats roped off to boot!), we just had to swallow a very slow, hot line, although the ride was new to me and fortunately well worth it.
As I rounded the top half of the queue building looking down on the station, I noticed that the park were forced to load just eight people from the standard line each dispatch, four from Fastrack and four from RAP, or whatever the Walibi equivalent is. I'd estimate the RAP line itself was around ten minutes, in comparison to the eighty I waited. I spotted one young guy and a person I presume was his father had managed to have two rides in that time in as long as it'd taken myself and two-hundred very bored French school kids to move about fifteen feet.
Now obviously, I am not someone without empathy and am aware of just how demonised those with disabilities are, especially in the UK throughout a decade of crippling austerity. I am able to think, "Hey, it's a bit annoying that these two able-bodied men are basically 'whoring' this ride while I shuffle along, sweating like a chump, but I have no idea what their interior lives consist of, nor how difficult their day-to-day existence is dealing with a complex disorder. As such, just let them have another go on this big Log Flume!"
But frankly, in the moment, I just found it really bloody annoying, and I know I wouldn't have done the same in their situation. There are some tone-deaf posts in this thread, no doubt, but that old adage that fresh-faced park workers are taught that "people turn their brains off when they enter a theme park" could, I think, also be applied to ideas of ethics and fairness. And for better or worse, I'm cynical enough to reckon that applies to many individuals regardless of their background or daily lived situation.
I regularly frequent a large, infamous nightclub in Berlin that proudly acts as a refuge for outsiders: queer, trans, POC, neurodivergent, punks, goths or just general proud weirdos. There's a stringent door policy to ensure that these people are rightly prioritised. Of course, you have to queue to get to that door, and almost everyone there seems to have a reason that they should quickly skip it with a quick slip under the barrier.
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Nick🎢
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Spinball Whizzer
I do agree - it's where the automated system mostly solves the issue. As you likely guessed I have a child with a hidden disability. And indeed... When using RAP it isn't just the child, it's 3 of us as well! We have some rules for using it though to be reasonable to others but to also teach the child in question that life won't always make it this easy.
- never back to back the same ride.
- if a queue is 15m or less we do it "normally" (her limiting factors are ability to stand for long periods and sensory). So we push it as far as we reasonably can to prepare her for adulthood.
I do really suffer from RAP guilt though
I don't believe that RAP scenario mentioned would happen at Legoland. IIRC and it's been a while it even stops "bookings" after a while to prevent oversubscription.
- never back to back the same ride.
- if a queue is 15m or less we do it "normally" (her limiting factors are ability to stand for long periods and sensory). So we push it as far as we reasonably can to prepare her for adulthood.
I do really suffer from RAP guilt though
I don't believe that RAP scenario mentioned would happen at Legoland. IIRC and it's been a while it even stops "bookings" after a while to prevent oversubscription.
Here is my anecdote - we (me and my RAP son) waited for over 30 min in the baking hot sun to even get to the front of the RAP queue while the main queue was on a 20 minute wait - there were about 8 groups in front of us in RAP - they were letting one group from RAP on to about 10 groups of "normals"
This was Spinball Whizzer about 2 weeks ago
Plastic Person
TS Member
That sounds distressing and frustrating and I'm sorry your son had to go through it. Seems increasingly clear to me from those much more experienced with the system that the automated system is the way forward for parks.
As this is a sensitive subject and given you are directly responding to an admittedly long, dense post of mine that other users might not bother to read in detail, I just need to clarify here that at no point did I (or would I) use the term "normals".
Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Remember that Spinball seats 4 per car, and most coasters only allow one RAP group per car/row due to evacuation reasons.
Yes I get that but it's not all fantastic, brilliant benefits cos you're disabled that some make out on this thread
Nick🎢
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Spinball Whizzer
I think that is the crux of the debate on this.
Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes and all that.
To be totally fair if I hadn't spent 13 years walking in those shoes I would likely be the one minimising need - you don't know what you don't know, so I don't like to be too harsh.
Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
When the wristbands were still used I always hid mine up my sleave and only got it out to show it at a ride, as I was worried that people might call me out on the fact that I don't "look" disabled (I have hidden (learning) disabilities myself, you'd only know if I struggled with something or had a meltdown).
I use the main queue if my arthritis is within reasonable limits, but I would never like to be linked with the "normals", whatever queue I am in.
Nick🎢
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Spinball Whizzer
It's something I am familiar with mate. What people don't see for instance, is we were at FL on Wednesday and there was some sick in the Sik exit line ( don't get me started on the irony) and that was enough that from 11.30 until we left my daughter wouldn't go on another ride.
It's this sort of stuff people don't see.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
One thing that I imagine could allay the RAP issue is by building higher capacity rides. From what I noticed on my last Alton Towers visit, the higher capacity rides were affected less by RAP and had shorter RAP queues.
I did take a look at the rough allocation of RAP on some of the rides I went on during my trip, and it appeared as though lower capacity rides were having a greater percentage of capacity allocated towards RAP.
I couldn’t observe on every ride, as some like Smiler and Wicker Man merge RAP into the queue prior to boarding and I wasn’t really paying much attention on most of the others, but I did observe a couple. From what I could see:
I did take a look at the rough allocation of RAP on some of the rides I went on during my trip, and it appeared as though lower capacity rides were having a greater percentage of capacity allocated towards RAP.
I couldn’t observe on every ride, as some like Smiler and Wicker Man merge RAP into the queue prior to boarding and I wasn’t really paying much attention on most of the others, but I did observe a couple. From what I could see:
- As @Plastic Person said, Spinball Whizzer was operating an equal 3-way split between RAP, FT and the main queue. I don’t know if it was like this all day, but when I was up near the station and able to watch what was going on, it certainly appeared this way. The ride was attaining a throughput average of 623pph for the 10 readings I timed, so with approximately 1/3 of the capacity going towards the main queue, the main queue throughput was approximately 208pph. For some idea, it took around 45-50 minutes to negotiate the u-turn by the ride’s final bend and the small stretch of queue heading up towards the station; I’ve never really analysed Spinball’s queue moving speed that closely, but it felt like one of the slowest moving Alton queues I’ve ever stood in. I should also note that the constantly moving loading system was not operating at all; instead of having 2 cars in the station constantly moving through like I’ve seen on the ride in the past, there were 3 cars sat stationary in there, and at points (where I wasn’t timing, I should add), there were hold ups where all 6 cars on the ride were sat stacking on the brake run Oblivion-style. From having asked around, the omnimover loading system being turned off is apparently a typical indicator of lots of RAP.
- Runaway Mine Train, on the one dispatch that me and my mum could see, had 9 RAP riders per train out of 46 in total, so roughly 20% of capacity being allocated towards RAP. Assuming that FT allocation was broadly similar to RAP allocation as it was on Spinball, roughly 60% of capacity was being allocated towards the main queue. The ride was attaining a throughput average of 597pph for the 4 readings I timed, so the main queue throughput was approximately 358pph. For some idea, the queue was spilling slightly past the ride entrance sign, and with the whole queue open, this wait took around 45 minutes.
- Nemesis appeared to be allocating RAP onto the back row; when a man tried to ride in row 8, I saw him get moved onto row 7 by the ride staff due to row 8 being the RAP row. With this in mind, Nemesis had 4 RAP riders per train out of 32 in total, so 1/8 of capacity was going towards RAP. Assuming equal FT allocation, roughly 75%, or 3/4, of the capacity was going towards the main queue. The ride was attaining a throughput average of 1,172pph for the 7 readings I timed, so the main queue throughput was approximately 879pph. For some idea, the queue took 45 minutes, but was well into the extensions; the queue honestly wasn’t far off bursting out of the allocated queue line and onto the path, as I remember waiting not long after going up the steps into the extension queue.
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MattyH
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- GIIBBB
To play devils advocate if I may.
If you were able to queue the 30 minutes, what was it that prevented you joining the 20 minute main queue?
From reading this thread, it's clearly a sensative issue with no particular solution.
John
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
The capacity of Spinball is simply too low to allow immediate (or near immediate) access for RAP users on all but the quietest of days. The same is true on a number of popular and/or low capacity rides. This places ride staff in a difficult position where they have to deal with multiple slow-moving queues of angry guests.
There is no easy solution to this but ideally I'd like to see it taken out of the hands of ride staff and an automated system implemented that would regulate the arrival of RAP guests at each ride. This would allow users to wait virtually then get near-immediate boarding on arrival, as the system was always supposed to work.
There is no easy solution to this but ideally I'd like to see it taken out of the hands of ride staff and an automated system implemented that would regulate the arrival of RAP guests at each ride. This would allow users to wait virtually then get near-immediate boarding on arrival, as the system was always supposed to work.
pluk
TS Member
No one in this thread has said that as far as I can tell?
In fact my point is wanting it to work properly for users, which it currently patently doesn't with extended waits at return times, just as much as it is managing the impact on the main queue which I would usually be in.
Benzin
TS Member
For Towers especially, a lot of the queues aren't accessible. Nemesis being a prime example of being awful for anyone with mobility problems. Can't speak for those with sensory and other disabilities but again it can be said the standard queues could be overwhelming and cause some issues there.
It's very much a problem throughout. And always a bit of a weird argument given that most RAP users need to use the respective RAP queueline.
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