School closures

[Martin]

I'd guess schools, particularly primary schools, close because kids are possibly more likely to slip and hurt themselves on ice and snow than working adults, and the schools will be more liable due to diminished responsibility of the child and greater duty of care on the part of the school. Where I live, primary schools closed, but secondary schools, colleges stayed open and unis were still doing lectures and stuff.

That's just a guess at this point, but it seems to be the most likely reason to me.

 

[TheMan]

Some opinions on here are just bizarre.

This confirms common sense has evaporated in this Country and why it is in such a sorry state.

Teachers, are not as important as hospitals being open. How anyone can compare those is beyond my comprehension.

We are not prepared, as the whole of the UK is not blanketed in snow like this that often, and the more it happens, the more prepared and used to the conditions people will become.

People are not used to traveling in this weather or driving in it, and that is frankly dangerous and stupid. If you are argue against that, you really need to poke your head out of the window for some proof. Not even going to debate it.

The Country used to get weeks of snow, it was used to it, it is not now, there is more traffic, far less experience and if this becomes regular things will return to normal far quicker as people learn.

I still believe a SENSIBLE (yes, bold capitals!) solution is discretionary days, so that parents can send their kids in to a bare bones structure supported by more local teachers, for those that really need to use it. I am sure many will choose to keep their kids home that can.

Why is it, there is shut the schools its dangerous! or open the schools no matter what it is lazy and I'm missing out on dimes.

You know what, neither of those is accurate! Some people need them open, some people don't, schools shouldn't be held accountable by parents if those same parents send their kids into school, and they trip over!!

Common f-ing sense! One thing about it, it is most certainly not common anymore!

 

[BigT]

Thing is though TheMan, kids fall over when its not cold outside as well but nobody holds them responsible then, so why is it different when it's snowy.

And teachers and schools are important, that's where the next crop of doctors and nurses hopefully come from.
If you don't like the comparison with hospitals then how about councils and bin men then, both were at work today where I live and neither are exactly life or death.

I just think teachers play such an important role in society that they need to take more responsibility for there actions, and not hold the rest of us to ransom.

 

[AstroDan]

I teach, and my school was open today. What you are not taking into account is the fact that headteachers cannot win.

We had quite a significant number of parents/carers asking WHY we had opened today, saying that if other local schools were closed, then so we should have too.

Had we closed, it would have been the same - but the other way around.

We had around 60% attendance today. Our caretaker was in school from 4:30am clearing paths. Had we not had such a dedicated caretaker, we may have had to close - as we had a lot of thick snow over all grounds, including pathways. Access onto the site was dangerous. However, we managed it.

 

[Dar]

Again, I don't think the teachers just think "Hmm, I fancy the day off. Sod it, SNOW DAY!"

They have to think long and hard about it, weighing up the forecasts and current conditions. If it's forecast for blizzards around lunchtime until home time, it makes sense to close because the pupils won't be able to get home or their parents might not be able to get in to collect them.

The difference with the snow is that it is abnormal. Kids fall over and it's just part of playing but if they slide over on ice that could have been cleared then the school is at fault for not doing everything it can to minimise the risk to it's pupils. Good 'ol 'elf n' safety again.

I will agree, today it seems that some schools may have over-reacted and closed too soon. But last Friday was terrible, even my university closed.

And finally, the teachers don't just want a day off. Most of them still go in and do marking or other mark or look after the children that have to stay because their parents are unable to collect them.

 

[AstroDan]

Friday was totally different to today. We did not close, however. Instead - parents were invited to collect children and by 2:30pm we had less than 20 left. This allowed teaching staff to leave on a staggered basis.

It took me 4 hours to get home.

 

[IanB]

A good old teacher bashing thread. Got to love them :

I had to work today, I have to work during school holidays, yet it does not upset me some teachers and some schools were closed.

I disagree with what someone else said about Hospital Staff and School staff being different, they are not, both are vitally important, for different reasons.

All I know is, I would rather do my job, then be a teacher, and I am not going to moan about it because it is my choice. If you want to have snow days, and summer holidays off, study hard, and become a teacher.

Ian

 

[BigT]

Again, I don't think the teachers just think "Hmm, I fancy the day off. Sod it, SNOW DAY!"

They have to think long and hard about it, weighing up the forecasts and current conditions. If it's forecast for blizzards around lunchtime until home time, it makes sense to close because the pupils won't be able to get home or their parents might not be able to get in to collect them.

The difference with the snow is that it is abnormal. Kids fall over and it's just part of playing but if they slide over on ice that could have been cleared then the school is at fault for not doing everything it can to minimise the risk to it's pupils. Good 'ol 'elf n' safety again.

I will agree, today it seems that some schools may have over-reacted and closed too soon. But last Friday was terrible, even my university closed.

And finally, the teachers don't just want a day off. Most of them still go in and do marking or other mark or look after the children that have to stay because their parents are unable to collect them.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not picking out individual schools but 5000 closed today, I didn't even know there was that many schools.

No other organisation would be allowed to close like this and that's the point, teachers should not be even given the choice. School should always be open, end of discussion if they don't turn up without good reason then the same disciplinary procedures should apply that apply to everyone else.
Teachers are employees, not decision makers and its about time they started acting like it.

I'd be interested to know how many independent schools were shut today?

 

[Jonathan]

Again, I don't think the teachers just think "Hmm, I fancy the day off. Sod it, SNOW DAY!"

They have to think long and hard about it, weighing up the forecasts and current conditions. If it's forecast for blizzards around lunchtime until home time, it makes sense to close because the pupils won't be able to get home or their parents might not be able to get in to collect them.

The difference with the snow is that it is abnormal. Kids fall over and it's just part of playing but if they slide over on ice that could have been cleared then the school is at fault for not doing everything it can to minimise the risk to it's pupils. Good 'ol 'elf n' safety again.

I will agree, today it seems that some schools may have over-reacted and closed too soon. But last Friday was terrible, even my university closed.

And finally, the teachers don't just want a day off. Most of them still go in and do marking or other mark or look after the children that have to stay because their parents are unable to collect them.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not picking out individual schools but 5000 closed today, I didn't even know there was that many schools.

No other organisation would be allowed to close like this and that's the point, teachers should not be even given the choice. School should always be open, end of discussion if they don't turn up without good reason then the same disciplinary procedures should apply that apply to everyone else.
Teachers are employees, not decision makers and its about time they started acting like it.

I'd be interested to know how many independent schools were shut today?

Sorry to go to an extreme again, but your statement about schools always being open with no exception is rather ridiculous. If a school burnt to the ground, would you expect kids to still turn up and have lessons in ruined classrooms? I'm struggling to understand your logic here.

 

[Fredward]

This isn't a black and white argument. Not everyone can drive at the same level or confidence. Nor does everyone drive. Actually people who drive in these conditions and dismiss it as easy and everyone can do it, need to reassess their level of driving. Driving in these conditions is more dangerous then driving normally and not everyone is confident with that.

Then the case of Bus's, more mass, harder to stop... recipe for disaster in a certain circumstance.

It's a win/lose situation, and it depends on many different factors same time though.

So if one of your children got injured when walking to or from school because of snow and ice, you wouldn't care? That's a rather sad thing, if I'm honest.

Did he mention that? Did he even say anything to suggest that? Sorry to call you out in this occasion, but you are grossly twisting his point of view for no reason and I don't see how it was necessary. I'm sure he would care if his child got injured on the way to school.

 

[Dar]

Headteachers make the decision and should try to get the school open if at all possible. Unless the local council decides to close all the schools under it's control, then the teachers have no say at all.

Again, in my experience teachers still go to work when the school is closed, if they can, and do work. Marking, lesson planning or looking after kids that are stranded.

Again, I don't think it's teachers wanting a lazy day, the teachers I've met are very passionate about their jobs and don't like interruptions to the class routine. It's purely down to government advice and schools should remain open if they can.

 

[Jonathan]

So if one of your children got injured when walking to or from school because of snow and ice, you wouldn't care? That's a rather sad thing, if I'm honest.

Did he mention that? Did he even say anything to suggest that? Sorry to call you out in this occasion, but you are grossly twisting his point of view for no reason and I don't see how it was necessary. I'm sure he would care if his child got injured on the way to school.

That's a fair point, Matt, but I was getting the impression that money seemed more important than child welfare.

 

[BigT]

Again, I don't think the teachers just think "Hmm, I fancy the day off. Sod it, SNOW DAY!"

They have to think long and hard about it, weighing up the forecasts and current conditions. If it's forecast for blizzards around lunchtime until home time, it makes sense to close because the pupils won't be able to get home or their parents might not be able to get in to collect them.

The difference with the snow is that it is abnormal. Kids fall over and it's just part of playing but if they slide over on ice that could have been cleared then the school is at fault for not doing everything it can to minimise the risk to it's pupils. Good 'ol 'elf n' safety again.

I will agree, today it seems that some schools may have over-reacted and closed too soon. But last Friday was terrible, even my university closed.

And finally, the teachers don't just want a day off. Most of them still go in and do marking or other mark or look after the children that have to stay because their parents are unable to collect them.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not picking out individual schools but 5000 closed today, I didn't even know there was that many schools.

No other organisation would be allowed to close like this and that's the point, teachers should not be even given the choice. School should always be open, end of discussion if they don't turn up without good reason then the same disciplinary procedures should apply that apply to everyone else.
Teachers are employees, not decision makers and its about time they started acting like it.

I'd be interested to know how many independent schools were shut today?

Sorry to go to an extreme again, but your statement about schools always being open with no exception is rather ridiculous. If a school burnt to the ground, would you expect kids to still turn up and have lessons in ruined classrooms? I'm struggling to understand your logic here.

I think your being a bit silly now, we're not talking about one off disasters are we!

 

[BowMan]

I don't know about all this debate going on but I do know that half the people who were in school were miserable. And the teachers said they didn't want us to progress too much in lessons so the others wouldn't be behind. So we didn't even learn anything anyway.

 

[Fredward]

So if one of your children got injured when walking to or from school because of snow and ice, you wouldn't care? That's a rather sad thing, if I'm honest.

Did he mention that? Did he even say anything to suggest that? Sorry to call you out in this occasion, but you are grossly twisting his point of view for no reason and I don't see how it was necessary. I'm sure he would care if his child got injured on the way to school.

That's a fair point, Matt, but I was getting the impression that money seemed more important than child welfare.

Again I fail to see him saying or implied that either? He said he was grumpy for losing a days pay? Wouldn't you be, especially if you need every penny you can get looking after kids. He never said it was more important.

I'm not saying I fully agree with his point of view, but I can understand why some would think that way, if I can get into work can't the teachers? Frustration then caused from having to drive back in these conditions to look after children, would give the parent a sour taste on their opinion on snow days.

The thing is Jon, since you don't have kids, nor work a full time job. You can't fully understand where he is coming from. I remember when I was to young to look after myself and had snowdays, I had two choices, go round a friends house, or have to sit with my parents at work (they own their own business) especially January being a ridiculously busy time for accountants.

You make these assumptions and wild ideas with little or no knowledge of his point of view. (Neither do I, but i'm not making wild assumptions of him caring more for money then his kids and not caring about their safety)

Some people need to work... they can't afford a day off, so after going through all the effort to get to work, just to be forced to pick up their kid has to be a kick in the teeth.


Again, I don't have this point of view 100% but I can respect both sides of the argument, hence why I'm making this point.

 

[Jonathan]

So if one of your children got injured when walking to or from school because of snow and ice, you wouldn't care? That's a rather sad thing, if I'm honest.

Did he mention that? Did he even say anything to suggest that? Sorry to call you out in this occasion, but you are grossly twisting his point of view for no reason and I don't see how it was necessary. I'm sure he would care if his child got injured on the way to school.

That's a fair point, Matt, but I was getting the impression that money seemed more important than child welfare.

Again I fail to see him saying or implied that either? He said he was grumpy for losing a days pay? Wouldn't you be, especially if you need every penny you can get looking after kids. He never said it was more important.

I'm not saying I fully agree with his point of view, but I can understand why some would think that way, if I can get into work can't the teachers? Frustration then caused from having to drive back in these conditions to look after children, would give the parent a sour taste on their opinion on snow days.

The thing is Jon, since you don't have kids, nor work a full time job. You can't fully understand where he is coming from. I remember when I was to young to look after myself and had snowdays, I had two choices, go round a friends house, or have to sit with my parents at work (they own their own business) especially January being a ridiculously busy time for accountants.

You make these assumptions and wild ideas with little or no knowledge of his point of view. (Neither do I, but i'm not making wild assumptions of him caring more for money then his kids and not caring about their safety)

Some people need to work... they can't afford a day off, so after going through all the effort to get to work, just to be forced to pick up their kid has to be a kick in the teeth.


Again, I don't have this point of view 100% but I can respect both sides of the argument, hence why I'm making this point.

I can certainly understand what you're saying, and I do largely agree with you. Maybe I was wrong in what I said, and if so, then I accept that.

Anyway, it's probably best to move on, as otherwise, the topic could get a bit derailed.

 

[TheMan]

Thing is though TheMan, kids fall over when its not cold outside as well but nobody holds them responsible then, so why is it different when it's snowy.

And teachers and schools are important, that's where the next crop of doctors and nurses hopefully come from.
If you don't like the comparison with hospitals then how about councils and bin men then, both were at work today where I live and neither are exactly life or death.

I just think teachers play such an important role in society that they need to take more responsibility for there actions, and not hold the rest of us to ransom.

I agree with all of this except holding people to ransom, I know of many heads/teachers who do all they can to open, often it is not in their hands. Also remember hospitals have staff accommodation on site.

I teach, and my school was open today. What you are not taking into account is the fact that headteachers cannot win.

We had quite a significant number of parents/carers asking WHY we had opened today, saying that if other local schools were closed, then so we should have too.

Had we closed, it would have been the same - but the other way around.

We had around 60% attendance today. Our caretaker was in school from 4:30am clearing paths. Had we not had such a dedicated caretaker, we may have had to close - as we had a lot of thick snow over all grounds, including pathways. Access onto the site was dangerous. However, we managed it.

Astro, there needs to be common sense, it's commendable the School opened, what should be done is a discretionary service, where a school opens if possible with skeleton staff, local preferably, so that people who do work can continue as normal if they can or need to.

Then those who can keep their kids at home, should do, to take the burden off of Schools as they are human like everyone else and not super-humans with anti-weather power.

I don't get it. What is so hard about this?

Take the stress from schools and working couples/single parents. All with the knowledge we are working together to help each other out.

The fact our society is so ludicrously insular, has zero common sense, with an "us and them" attitude at every available turn fostered by Governments is so unbelievably stupid.

In fact, stupid is too kind a word. This didn't happen 50 years ago why? Because we lived in communities!

I feel for you Dan, you cannot win either way - the answer is, to not be either way - and land in the middle.

 

[Ben]

Just to add abit of interest,

I work in a hospital doing a pretty vital role, there was no-way I was driving into work today - the roads around the hospital were dire at 6am when I phoned (2 hours before I start my shift) and was told there would be no parking available.

There is 1 bus an hour that I could have got to work, sadly the bus company decided not to run any of their services today.

My other alternative would have been 4 busses or 3 busses and a train and taken close to 3 hours. Walking would have been about the same time.

I was advised to stay at home, stay safe and warm. The last thing the hospital wanted is a hospital full of staff who have had accidents on the way to work.

So, yeah, hospitals can run - there was a reduced capacity by accounts, but to parallel that there were less patients as many were either told to go out or to chose to stay home.
Hospitals do have contingency plans for if staff can't get there - stuff like this is predicted, but its logic that if staff cant get in, neither can patients.

I've had to use annual leave hours for today, which was fine by me - or I could have worked an extra shift to pick up the hours. Neither are of detriment to me, I was happy not to be worrying about the situation.

My kids didnt go to school, and Im glad - safety first in my eyes, one of the first things I was taught as a medical professional.

 

[Jem8472]

This is a tricky subject. But one thing that annoys me is some of the people on my facebook that are teachers often post updates saying things along the lines of "Hurry up snow I want a day off"
As someone that works and is expected to be in work that annoys me a lot as it just looks like they just want to skive.

I think the H&S thing is going a little far, as it seems to have got ott in all aspects of daily life.

I cleared the snow from the steps outside our flats as it was rather deep snow on top of compacted icy snow. I posted about it on faffbook and the first comment I got was you can be sued.
I had actually already checked and the council and met office websites and I found this:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/get-ready-for-winter/out-and-about/the-snow-code

It basically says that as long as you make a good effort to clear the snow its very unlikely you can be sued because people walking in snow have to take care.

But its a bit sad that I did not actually get one comment saying anything positive. Not knocking the person that did comment its just that it is seen as odd if you do something like that these days.

I think this is also part of the problem with why schools seem to close so often, no one want to take responsibility for anything. You hear people complaining that the gritters don't do their roads or that the paths are icy. How often do you see anyone using a grit bin and clearing the path or the road to make it easier and safer for traffic and pedestrians.

I think everyone needs to chip in when we have difficult weather like this not just rely on the council to do it. Its just laziness.

 

[DiogoJ42]

The only time my schools ever closed early and sent us home, was when the roof started falling to pieces due to the massive storm in '89. It was open again the next day, with a few classrooms out of action.

Snow just made PE twice as unpleasant. In fact, we had one PE teacher who, upon seeing 99% of the class (IE, everyone but me and one other person) having a snowball fight, declared he was going to "cure us of our snow obsession". He made us play rugby for 90mins in six inches of snow, wearing only T shirt and shorts. While he was wrapped up warm with a thermos of tea.
I was not impressed.