The Brexit Thread

[Tom]

Hahahahaha.

Businesses reducing their profit margin so us peasants don't have to suffer increased costs.

Zero chance of that happening in the near future.

You've misinterpreted the point I am making: Businesses (and British nationals) should be forced to fill these so-called labour/skills "shortages" from the UK domestic market, via whatever means are effective.

An alternative, and I suggest far more likely, option is to flood the labour markets with even cheaper (than EU) labour from Asia and other areas/countries the Conservative Party is absolutely desperate for trade deals with.

 

[pluk]

Right, so when the country is short of around 10,000 lorry drivers.

...according to the industry bodies representing those businesses who's financial interests depend on cheap driver labour.

I'm not saying there isn't workforce pressure on that industry, but be warrey of those figures from those groups. The supermarket shelves are still full. Buildings are still going up. On the whole, stuff is getting to where it needs to be.

It strikes me the government doesn't want to be seen to u-turn and "surrender" to those dreaded European folk out of principle.

Considering the substantially less skilled fruit picking labour market has been granted three times the visas than have been called for here that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Putting unnecessarily inflammatory language into the mouths of others doesn't actually help your point.

For those with any actual interest, the list of professionals eligible for visas, including fruit pickers, labourers and HGV driving instructors. Is it perfect? No, of course not. Does it broadly make sense? Yes.

 

[Rick]

I'm not saying there isn't workforce pressure on that industry, but be warrey of those figures from those groups. The supermarket shelves are still full. Buildings are still going up. Om the whole, stuff is getting to where it needs to be.

I think some supermarkets are doing better than others, Sainsbury's this evening was like something out of the Soviet era, Asda slightly better but a higher than usual number of items weren't there, huge gaps on some aisles.

 

[pluk]

I think some supermarkets are doing better than others, Sainsbury's this evening was like something out of the Soviet era, Asda slightly better but a higher than usual number of items weren't there, huge gaps on some aisles.

Same story here, Sainsburys looks worse than everyone else. I'm sure this isn't isolated from their recent decimation of management structure and staff packages that will have left them with no staff loyalty and in a weak position in this now competitive market. They deserve nothing less. I worked for them until 2008 and still have friends in that world, the way they've been treated is shocking.

But even in Sainsbury's, the only actually empty shelves I've found have been bottled water. Everything else might have a limited range, but if I've wanted it it's been there.

 

[Dave]

I think it’s great the government has turned the visa request down and told companies to invest in the local workforce. That’s exactly why I voted to leave, so we stop relying on cheap labour from the EU and start providing decent jobs and training in the U.K. If it means I pay £2-£3 more on my shopping then I’d be happy to pay that if it means a person can afford to get a home and have a decent standard of living.

It takes around a year to train someone to drive haulage, you are being incredibly short sighted of you think you can sort this problem out overnight by trying to train up British drivers and the cost impact has already added far more than £3 to a weekly shop.

Im also baffled by the idea that it was the EU’s fault we allowed a cheap labour problem in this country. You don’t see the same in Germany. People need to open their eyes and see that this government want cheap labour and they will continue to facilitate it. They haven’t turned the visa down because they want to build up the wage package for UK drivers, they have turned it down to stop the hard core brexit supporters frothing at the mouth at a time when their approval ratings are taking a nose dive.

And if you work in the NHS the loss of European staff on top of the pandemic pressures is causing huge staffing issues. Where I work we have so many vacancies we can’t operate all our services at full capacity, these are not low paid jobs so the great irony is we are having to recruit from India which all the brexit supporting people who work there are furious about.

We truely have reached the point where it doesn’t matter what lunacy is being caused by brexit it’s supporters will find any excuse to justify it. You only have to look at the Irish border problem to see that.

 

[GaryH]

Would you abandon your NHS pension & conditions and drive a lorry for £29k?

I’ve worked in the nhs since 1996 so why would I need to do that when there are plenty of people looking for jobs and younger people wanting to train? Don’t really see the pint of your question to be honest - however if I were on a lower salary then maybe yes it would be something I would consider.

Sorry but I find it worrying that some people seem to think thousands country cannot function without outside help from the EU. We shouldnt be in this situation. The world is a more dangerous place and getting to the stage where it will be everyone for themselves in the future so we need to be more self reliant.

Cheap labour , poor working conditions, no staff loyalty, that what we have had by employing cheap labour from the EU.

How can anyone think it’s right that people come over from the EU, with 5 or 6 people sharing one small house because they can’t afford anything else, being paid poorly in the U.K. to do a job, no sick pay, no pension, then discarded again afterwards when they are not needed.

Unfortunately it’s what we as consumers have got used to but heaven forbid any of us doing those jobs. We want cheap goods and we are lazy too in this country. We have to realise that you can’t have cheap products without affecting other peoples standards of living. We all see the poor working conditions of those making clothes in other countries, or the human rights abuses in China, yet we are still buy from these places because we want cheap.

It’s got to stop. We have a big enough work force here in the U.K. with people who want to train and have rewarding careers. Yes it will take some time and the first few years will be difficult but if we invest in our people, train them, pay them a decent wage and change our way of thinking them life can only get better for everyone who lives here.

 

[pluk]

And if you work in the NHS the loss of European staff on top of the pandemic pressures is causing huge staffing issues ... these are not low paid jobs so the great irony is we are having to recruit from India which all the brexit supporting people who work there are furious about.

If the job is open to international applications there is nothing preventing Europeans fulfilling those roles. As the visa system is now the same for the whole world its mot necessary to recruit from (or not from) anywhere in particular, European or otherwise.

 

[Dave]

If the job is open to international applications there is nothing preventing Europeans fulfilling those roles. As the visa system is now the same for the whole world its mot necessary to recruit from (or not from) anywhere in particular, European or otherwise.

That wasn’t the point, brexit has caused that staff group to leave, we now are chasing our tail trying to fill that gap. On top of that it is now costing around £8,000 per recruit to bring them over, a cost we didn’t have with European applicants.

The cheap labour argument really is a false flag, the government actively encouraged a cheap labour low regulation economy and it isn’t going to change that. In fact it will ramp up the processes now. It has already started deregulation the driving rules to compensate for the shortfall rather than tackle pay and conditions issues, it’s started quietly moving NHS services to the private sector at greater speed (the new much touted diagnostic hubs are all being awarded to private providers).

Still won’t change anyone’s minds, the country is obsessed with a virulent “anti-EU” sentiment despite the fact we haven’t achieved anything in the last 2 years that we couldn’t have done in the EU (one trade deal agreed outside that we already had and it has already upset UK farmers as they can’t compete with the Australians). Covid has been a convenient cover but the damage is occurring.

 

[pluk]

That wasn’t the point, brexit has caused that staff group to leave, we now are chasing our tail trying to fill that gap.

Undoubtedly true, I'm not arguing for Brexit, but anyone here legitimately working was allowed to stay and those in the recognised professions from your highly skilled ones to the lowest skilled and paid fruit pickers, are welcome to come and work. With brexit being a thing, which rightly or wrongly it is, what else realistically could be done?

 

[Dave]

Undoubtedly true, I'm not arguing for Brexit, but anyone here legitimately working was allowed to stay and those in the recognised professions from your highly skilled ones to the lowest skilled and paid fruit pickers, are welcome to come and work. With brexit being a thing, which rightly or wrongly it is, what else realistically could be done?

There are a number of things ideology is getting in the way of:

1) Offer fast track visa’s for European workers, they are closer to us and cheaper to bring over. Offer visas for haulage rather than stress about the anti-EU sentiment.

2) Agree to the EU minimum food standards to allow the Irish border problem to end, the government say it isn’t planning to deregulate food standards which currently meet or exceed EU standards so why is it an issue…. Unless they are lying.

3) Start working on easier travel for tourism, work and education between the UK and the EU.

Brexit is done, it was a pointless exercise, what’s really frustrating is the UK government now taking a hard line on anything that can be construed as working with the EU, yet capitulate to every demand the likes of Australia or America make (happy to enslave ourselves to anyone it seems to long as they are not next door).

Folk can cry about brexit means brexit until they are blue in their face but the fact remains we are European, we live on the continent of Europe and brexit has not changed geography. We need a good relationship with our closest neighbours.

 

[Rick]

Undoubtedly true, I'm not arguing for Brexit, but anyone here legitimately working was allowed to stay and those in the recognised professions from your highly skilled ones to the lowest skilled and paid fruit pickers, are welcome to come and work. With brexit being a thing, which rightly or wrongly it is, what else realistically could be done?

You are making the error of talking about Brexit as if it was something with a defined outcome or structure, when it was essentially a word. There was a version of Brexit that would nullify all the issues that have been highlighted in this thread, including the haulage industry headache.

The irony of Brexit, which is portrayed as this big exercise of democracy and the 'taking back of control' is that we as a nation allowed a tiny negotiation team, sponsored by a government with a proven liar at the helm to negotiate what Brexit actually was.

I’ve worked in the nhs since 1996 so why would I need to do that when there are plenty of people looking for jobs and younger people wanting to train? Don’t really see the pint of your question to be honest - however if I were on a lower salary then maybe yes it would be something I would consider.

Sorry but I find it worrying that some people seem to think thousands country cannot function without outside help from the EU. We shouldnt be in this situation. The world is a more dangerous place and getting to the stage where it will be everyone for themselves in the future so we need to be more self reliant.

Cheap labour , poor working conditions, no staff loyalty, that what we have had by employing cheap labour from the EU.

How can anyone think it’s right that people come over from the EU, with 5 or 6 people sharing one small house because they can’t afford anything else, being paid poorly in the U.K. to do a job, no sick pay, no pension, then discarded again afterwards when they are not needed.

Unfortunately it’s what we as consumers have got used to but heaven forbid any of us doing those jobs. We want cheap goods and we are lazy too in this country. We have to realise that you can’t have cheap products without affecting other peoples standards of living. We all see the poor working conditions of those making clothes in other countries, or the human rights abuses in China, yet we are still buy from these places because we want cheap.

It’s got to stop. We have a big enough work force here in the U.K. with people who want to train and have rewarding careers. Yes it will take some time and the first few years will be difficult but if we invest in our people, train them, pay them a decent wage and change our way of thinking them life can only get better for everyone who lives here.

We've had this debate three or four times now, to (re)summarise I agree with some of your observations but I disagree that Brexit will fix any of these things, in many cases I think 'Global Britain' will move things further in the direction you dislike.

 

[pluk]

You are making the error of talking about Brexit as if it was something with a defined outcome or structure, when it was essentially a word.

I'm not at all. I'm just always feeling like I have to defend myself as not a Brexiteer on here with my somewhat middle of the road position. The majority on the left/remain side of things want to lump anything other than complete derision of both the government and Brexit as inherently stupid and/or racist and descend into personal insults. It's boring, I rather try to head it off.

There are a number of things ideology is getting in the way of:

Again, that they have done exactly that for the much lower skilled and lower paid fruit pickers suggests that is not the driving factor, that goes much further against the grain if the decision making is ideology based.

Work visas take a couple of weeks processing from anywhere, it's hardly a convoluted process for anyone, Europe or otherwise ... giving preferable visa treatment to EU residents would just put potentially better candidates at a disadvantage completely unfairly ... simply 'accepting EU food standards' is a gross simplification of the issues of the boarder which is more to do with the recognition of their courts and being controlled by their decision making ... obviously we don't 'capitulate to every demand' in our own negotiations, we negotiate.

UK unemployment is currently about 3% lower than EU and falling, some workers are able to attract premium payment for in demand skills. Controls on migrant workers are having some positive effects on the labour market as well as negative. It seems we should be looking to offer visas to appropriately skilled drivers.

 

[Craig]

There's so many issues with the view of "just accept the price rises" and "just accept we need to train our own people and pay more". The whole problem is that every single thing that the UK needs to do has a chain reaction which is often not considered - it's not something you can change and everything is "fixed". There's so much to consider if you just chuck in random price rises across the board:

• What does someone who's low paid do now that they suddenly can't afford the essential items they need?
• What about the shops that sell those non-essential items that are suddenly not selling as much as they did before? The employees (and let's not forget they're usually the ones in the bullet point above) are suddenly on lower hours or finding themselves out of a job.
• Further up the chain, what about the manufacturers who are suddenly struggling to get the orders needed for their factories to continue employing workers?

I wholly agree we have an issue with low paid labour in this country, which absolutely needs fixing. However the complete lack of understanding of how it's not just a quick fix both pre referendum and post-brexit is why we're finding ourselves in the mess that we're in now. We simply cannot just flick a switch to pay more wages and not expect impacts across the whole supply chain.

And sure, it'd be great to just "train some UK HGV drivers", but along with reduced tests and lessons available due to Covid over the past year you've also got:

• Drivers tied up getting tested to drive onto the continent
• Drivers and goods being tied up dealing with customs check meaning their next jobs are delayed
• Staffing issues due to positive tests and self isolation

Extending driving hours is a dangerous and (not very) sticky plaster over the issue. What should have been considered post Brexit and especially once we were seeing where Covid was going is short, time limited visas would have been appropriate for the foreign workforce that we already had. That could have easily been clearly explained, but instead we're left with empty shelves and half arsed "train some drivers" statements from the government. They know that's not the fix in the short term, but they just hope that a bit of grandstanding will keep the voters happy and the problem will somehow magically disappear.

 

[Alsty]

simply 'accepting EU food standards' is a gross simplification of the issues of the boarder which is more to do with the recognition of their courts and being controlled by their decision making ... obviously we don't 'capitulate to every demand' in our own negotiations, we negotiate

Example, the proposed trade deal with Australia puts UK farmers at risk as they'll be competing against lower standards. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of protections, despite adding only an estimated 0.02% to the UKs GDP.

Farmers in Australia are allowed to use some hormone growth promoters, pesticides, and feed additives that are banned in the UK. According to the National Farmers Union (NFU), Australian farmers are able to produce beef at a lower cost of production, and could undercut farmers in the UK.

By comparison, it seems like it's unfashionable to even maintain the status quo with the EU.

It seems we should be looking to offer visas to appropriately skilled drivers.

At least we agree on something. So why don't the government do this, if it's the obvious answer?

 

[Tom]

Because they need to use visas and labour access as bargaining chips in trade negotiations with Asian countries who have workers desperate to come to the UK.

 

[Benzin]

Because they need to use visas and labour access as bargaining chips in trade negotiations with Asian countries who have workers desperate to come to the UK.

The irony of voting to end free movement of foreigners from one area leading to an increase of foreign immigration from outside the EU.

Having briefly dealt in the HGV industry from the engineering side of things it's an unbelievably complex industry to work in. When you then add in the extras that have come about as a result of leaving the EU (and the loss of labour, would you want to stay in a country that's made you public enemy number 1?) makes it incredibly difficult to fill in those roles and keep the wagons on the streets.

That combined with the pandemic has lead to these issues. But you have to drive recruitment towards these low end jobs by making them actually attractive to work these weird roles. But the concern from the government seems more towards pushing people back into the offices that they own.

 

[Alsty]

Not a parody, apparently.

 

[Funcone]

It sounds like Liz Truss has got it all under control.

 

[Tom]

The irony of voting to end free movement of foreigners from one area leading to an increase of foreign immigration from outside the EU.

That's the people who thought that's fault for being naïve and thinking the government was interested in driving up wages for British nationals by reducing immigration.

Brexit does however make it theoretically possible for a future government to do such a thing by appropriately controlling immigration numbers, but anyone that thought Boris Johnson and co. were the people to do it were unfortunately somewhat deluded.

 

[AstroDan]

The problem with anything to do with Brexit and all it entails is that no matter what happens, Cameron opened Pandora's Box.

It can never be closed.

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