The Brexit Thread

[Benzin]

"Brexit means Brexit" really showed the charade that was being played. Because it didn't mean anything as nobody knew what Brexit would be like due to the number of available options.

But it kept the likes of Rees-Mogg in a job. So you know. Worth it.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think this is the problem with British politics at the moment - on both Brexit and Scottish independence you have pretty much a 50/50 split on what the general public want. Therefore when you have a referendum where the result is binary it is going to leave half the population unhappy with the result.

"Brexit means Brexit" is a phrase that annoyed me a lot, in that because 52% voted in favour of Leave, the views of the 48% that voted Remain count for nothing. Had the result been more one sided, if for example 70% or more voted Leave, then pursuit of a "hard Brexit" is far more justified, but with the vote so close, a softer approach seems far more sensible. Likewise, a tight result the other way should mean we stayed in the EU but the matter would be far from closed, while a substantial win would push the issue into realms of "once in a lifetime".

In terms of what is happening now, Brexit is of course a factor. By leaving the EU we have put barriers in place when it comes to trade and we have removed a huge amount of the workforce in low-skilled jobs. Personally I don't see how a country the size of the UK can negotiate trade deals that are better than a bloc the size of the EU can negotiate - like with the Brexit negotiations themselves, the smaller party (in most cases us) will always have a dud hand when it comes to negotiating with a larger party, be that the US, China or the EU itself, and to think otherwise is just delusional, but some people still see us as a global superpower from the Empire days.

It's the problem with western politics in general at the moment. So hyper charged with emotion and blind loyalty as if it's a football match or something. Cultist behaviour where the facts are no even discussed.

Time was, you could go in to a pub (before working class people were priced out of them) and have a thoroughly good friendly debate about the EU. Now, it's just "Brexiteers" and "Remoaners" - which side are you on? It's pathetic and most professional politicians have jumped on the band wagon.

Politics has always been tribal and emotional to a certain extent (and so it should be), I'll never vote Tory on the basis of the 1980's no matter what anyone says. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have a friendly debate with someone I don't agree with. But you can't disagree with anyone anymore and shake hands and get over it. Someone has to get the tissue box open and talk about how their feelings are hurt, the other side has to call them a snowflake, then the abuse starts and people don't seem to be able to agree to disagree.

The EU referendum was rediculous right from conception. I noticed that and that's why I voted to remain. In or out with no plan? Rediculous question to ask the public (for party political reasons only to boot!). David Cameron is one of the worst Prime Ministers this country as ever had. What if it was a small majority on either side? What does Brexit even mean? How hard or soft do you go? What happens when we leave? Who's going to do it? How are they going to do it? What happens if one of the home nations votes against the UK as a whole? What happens with our land border with the EU? None of this was considered. Just bull crap about red telephone boxes, bendy bananas, immigrants "taking our jobs", experts being considered idiots, threats about running out medicine, World War 3 being imminent and promises of punishment budgets.

Complete circus the whole thing. At least at a general election, if someone lies to you or doesn't deliver the goods you can votes again in 5 years time.

 

[Alsty]

So after weeks of lorry driver shortages, the government look set to introduce temporary worker visas to make it easier for foreign lorry drivers to work in the UK.

Honestly, this whole crisis could've been avoided weeks ago if they'd prioritised practicable solutions instead of Brexit ideology.

 

[pluk]

So after weeks of lorry driver shortages, the government look set to introduce temporary worker visas to make it easier for foreign lorry drivers to work in the UK.

Honestly, this whole crisis could've been avoided weeks ago if they'd prioritised practicable solutions instead of Brexit ideology.

That's only true if foreign drivers actually want to come here and work! Considering man of those living and working here could have stayed had they wanted to but chose not to it might not be as simple that.

The number of drivers lost to Brexit is only about a third of the amount lost to cancelled HGV training and testing due to covid. Doesn't look like we've fixed that problem either.

 

[Benzin]

That's only true if foreign drivers actually want to come here and work! Considering man of those living and working here could have stayed had they wanted to but chose not to it might not be as simple that.

Given the general "anti-immigrant" rhetoric that was going round I wouldn't want to live here either.

I don't really want to these days but to emigrate elsewhere would be such a headache now it's just not worth the hassle partner and I would have to go through. Especially her given the disability.

 

[GaryH]

It’s easy to blame all this on Brexit but it’s not all down to Brexit. We have had covid. This has resulted in delays processing applications for HGV drivers, delays in training them, and delays everywhere else in the U.K. due to the pandemic. Brexit is another factor on top I agree but the pandemic has also played a huge part in this.

 

[Rick]

It’s easy to blame all this on Brexit but it’s not all down to Brexit. We have had covid. This has resulted in delays processing applications for HGV drivers, delays in training them, and delays everywhere else in the U.K. due to the pandemic. Brexit is another factor on top I agree but the pandemic has also played a huge part in this.

The cause is definitely due to the pandemic, with some impact from Brexit.

Our abject failure to respond to the issue, by using foreign labour is almost all down to Brexit, hence now we're going to create a visa system and hope all those pesky foreigners come back to steal our jobs again.

There were over 3.5 years from the referendum until the start of the pandemic but in that time we spent far more time bickering about what Brexit was, rather than preparing for it in any meaningful way.

 

[BigT]

I guess the driver shortage in France, Germany and Italy is also down to Brexit?
For the record I received a delivery of 4 lorries this week for work and all of the drivers were Eastern European, the current issue with drivers is down to Covid and the fact they have been treated like rubbish for years.

 

[Dave]

It’s easy to blame all this on Brexit but it’s not all down to Brexit. We have had covid. This has resulted in delays processing applications for HGV drivers, delays in training them, and delays everywhere else in the U.K. due to the pandemic. Brexit is another factor on top I agree but the pandemic has also played a huge part in this.

I think it’s quite the opposite, brexit is very much the cause here. The pandemic first suppressed the effects of brexit as there was a drop in demand, then it accelerated the issues when the world suddenly increased demand in the supply chains.

We have an acute NHS staffing crisis, acute supply chain crisis, acute leisure industry crisis acute food production staffing crisis.

It’s all very much brexit, and watching supporters of brexit do mental gymnastics to try and pretend otherwise is amusing if slightly frustrating.

I guess the driver shortage in France, Germany and Italy is also down to Brexit?
For the record I received a delivery of 4 lorries this week for work and all of the drivers were Eastern European, the current issue with drivers is down to Covid and the fact they have been treated like rubbish for years.

As above in the uk the crisis is not just limited to haulage, it’s just the current focus. The only current issue not really brexit related is the gas issue.

 

[BigT]

I think it’s quite the opposite, brexit is very much the cause here. The pandemic first suppressed the effects of brexit as there was a drop in demand, then it accelerated the issues when the world suddenly increased demand in the supply chains.

We have an acute NHS staffing crisis, acute supply chain crisis, acute leisure industry crisis acute food production staffing crisis.

It’s all very much brexit, and watching supporters of brexit do mental gymnastics to try and pretend otherwise is amusing if slightly frustrating.




As above in the uk the crisis is not just limited to haulage, it’s just the current focus. The only current issue not really brexit related is the gas issue.

Just for clarification I voted to remain so I’m not some Brexit fan boy but it doesn’t mean I agree with blaming everything on Brexit either.

Food production isn’t suffering lack of staff because of Brexit, it’s more to do with a lot of the staff are off isolating and the fact a lot have gotten cleaner jobs due the the huge demand in warehouse staff due to home delivery which is the new rage.
The factory I’m working at now has stopped production for a few weeks for replacing some of the equipment but are still paying the staff.
Even though they are still paying them to sit at home most of them have gone to work in an Amazon warehouse, how many do you think will come back to a dirty smelly slaughter house?

The endless supply of cheap labour was already slowing down before Brexit, first it was labour from Portugal then Poland and finally Romania but even in the EU the cheap labour source has slowly been running out as impoverished countries increase their standard of living.

 

[Rick]

The endless supply of cheap labour was already slowing down before Brexit, first it was labour from Portugal then Poland and finally Romania but even in the EU the cheap labour source has slowly been running out as impoverished countries increase their standard of living.

Before Brexit or before the referendum ? The EU Migration trend was continuing to rise until the referendum, when it then dropped sharply in the painful years between the vote and our eventual exit, for reasons which are obvious.

I guess the driver shortage in France, Germany and Italy is also down to Brexit?
For the record I received a delivery of 4 lorries this week for work and all of the drivers were Eastern European, the current issue with drivers is down to Covid and the fact they have been treated like rubbish for years.

From the Road Haulage Association press release:

We have a desperate shortage of lorry drivers. The idea that Brexit has helped us in some way defies logic. Some 14,000 EU HGV drivers left employment in the UK in the 12 months to June 2020, and only 600 have returned in the past year, according to analysis of Office for National Statistics labour force data commissioned by Logistics UK.

----

For the record, we were supposed to have two containers of office furniture delivered this week for our new office. I am unable to clarify the nationality of the drivers because they don't exist. The containers are still sat at Heysham port awaiting collection.

 

[GaryH]

It’s all very much brexit, and watching supporters of brexit do mental gymnastics to try and pretend otherwise is amusing if slightly frustrating.

Same could be said for all the remainders trying to blame absolutely everything on Brexit. I’m surprised the lack of a decent August wasn’t blamed on Brexit!

And I disagree with regards the HGV drivers. It’s not purely down to Brexit at all. This article gives a good explanation of the three factors at work here:

https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/24/why-...ry-drivers-the-hgv-crisis-explained-15310821/

 

[BigT]

Regardless of Brexit we still would be having problems with lorry drivers and it’s going to get worse next year due to new EU rules.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0c4f9876-1ec5-41e1-b774-4abd2b58dde9

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Brexit has helped the situation, it just hasn't been the cause of it, it’s just easy to blame.

Anyway the problem at fuel stations at the minute are being caused by morons who do 20 miles a week filling their tanks for no sensible reason.

Her indoors has just ordered a Tesla today so she doesn’t have to worry about it anymore, just hope the delivery doesn’t get delayed…

 

[BarryZola]

If the government and our own haulage companies had been making sure that such an important industry had suitable apprenticeships and renumeration over the past 20 years then we wouldn't be in this position. Short term you can argue that Brexit has had a fairly big impact, I would concede that. However, long term this has been brewing and the speed of the exit of cheaper labour from the EU has shown up quickly the disregard for our own workers by successive governments. For most realist Brexit voters, they never expected it to be an immediate success. I can cope with a slightly reduced selection on the supermarket shelves and a few days disruption at the pumps, even though Brexit is not the entire cause of the issues.

 

[delta79]

Ok, BP has a lack of tanker drivers. Media headlines say lack of fuel in uk, and panic buying happens.

Petrol station companies with no issue under standard requirements are now being stretched by panic buying, causing shortage of fuel at the pump.

self-fulfilling prophecy anyone

Sent from my SM-A217F using Tapatalk

 

[Dave]

If the government and our own haulage companies had been making sure that such an important industry had suitable apprenticeships and renumeration over the past 20 years then we wouldn't be in this position. Short term you can argue that Brexit has had a fairly big impact, I would concede that. However, long term this has been brewing and the speed of the exit of cheaper labour from the EU has shown up quickly the disregard for our own workers by successive governments. For most realist Brexit voters, they never expected it to be an immediate success. I can cope with a slightly reduced selection on the supermarket shelves and a few days disruption at the pumps, even though Brexit is not the entire cause of the issues.

Brexit supporters always say they are happy for the short term pain but never explain what the gain is.

So far there has been no US trade deal (and the US has said it likely won’t happen) all our trade deals with some minor exceptions are roll over of the EU ones and the NHS didn’t see it’s touted money.

Other than the gammon getting excited over imperial weights and measures coming back (because that’s stupid when you want a scientifically literate population) it’s been a bit quiet on the success.

 

[Matt N]

Other than the gammon getting excited over imperial weights and measures coming back (because that’s stupid when you want a scientifically literate population) it’s been a bit quiet on the success.

Wait, has this happened?

Everything still seems to be in the metric system here thus far, and to be honest, I don’t really see how moving to imperial would make much difference myself.

The only things people still seem to measure in imperial are heights and weights, as well as speed (in the case of speed, this was already in imperial in Britain prior to Brexit); what else would be affected by imperial coming back?

As you say, a lot of international science is done using the metric system; all of the SI units for different quantities are in metric, or at least, were for our Physics A Level course (for instance, speed measured in m/s, mass measured in kg). The SI units are the accepted standard units for science internationally, if that’s anything to go by.

Sorry if I come across ignorant here, but I’d be intrigued to know; what positive impact will moving back to the imperial system have on our day-to-day lives?

 

[BarryZola]

Lorry drivers and any others getting a decent payrise would probably say it's been a bit of a success for them personally. And basically, everyone is out for themselves these days so who cares if there is a slight increase in food prices? Their new payrise will more than cover it.

 

[Dave]

Lorry drivers and any others getting a decent payrise would probably say it's been a bit of a success for them personally. And basically, everyone is out for themselves these days so who cares if there is a slight increase in food prices? Their new payrise will more than cover it.

I’m all for wage rises but it needs to come with other systemic changes to our economy. In the current system if we raise wages, the shareholders are not going to take a cut in their earnings, so prices rise, and therefore real term pay either stagnates or in real terms drops. So overall you achieve very little.

 

[Alsty]

This strikes me as an unfathomable change... GB stickers now need to be replaced with ones that say UK

What's the reasoning behind that one?