The Public Transport Thread

[Poisson]

BRT on the current roads would be a hideous idea. Possibly a much more useful idea then trying to reinstate trains at such a huge cost by using the track bed and some of the internal roads at Towers. Still doesn't solve getting from trackbed to park level.

JCB will not sell to Towers. It's their golf course and testing range.

 

[rob666]

BRT on the current roads would be a hideous idea. Possibly a much more useful idea then trying to reinstate trains at such a huge cost by using the track bed and some of the internal roads at Towers. Still doesn't solve getting from trackbed to park level.

JCB will not sell to Towers. It's their golf course and testing range.

They might if they owned the park...

 

[Poisson]

They might if they owned the park...

They've poured a hell of a lot of money into the course including hosting LIV Golf there. They won't destroy it.

 

[Bert2theSpark]

They've poured a hell of a lot of money into the course including hosting LIV Golf there. They won't destroy it.

Would be funny if the LIV Golf CEO had previous experience with Alton Towers, oh wait…

 

[rob666]

Then it would be a proper resort as well.
Could open a Ferrari museum as well with his collection.
And Baron Bamford might just have a few bob to invest to bring the park back up to scratch.

 

[Poisson]

Then it would be a proper resort as well.
Could open a Ferrari museum as well with his collection.
And Baron Bamford might just have a few bob to invest to bring the park back up to scratch.

That would be an interesting idea. Never will happen mind you.

 

[rob666]

None of my ideas ever happen...
Icon is a woodie remember.

 

[owenstreet7]

Toverland is ridiculously easy to get to by public transport. Located near a train station which is well connected to major cities, which is on a bus line that serves the park. Did the trip before Christmas, and shocked at how easy it was. The bus back to the train station had a couple of members of staff.

I think Alton Towers is an outlier in terms of public transport options that you can only get to the park by Taxi easily

Most European parks are connected by a train or bus route, you can get to Plopsaland easily by train.

I'm very much of the view that a British tourist could easily get to Phantasialand and spend less money than a trip to Alton Towers staying on site.

 

[Benzin]

I'm very much of the view that a British tourist could easily get to Phantasialand and spend less money than a trip to Alton Towers staying on site.

That's probably a more sad indictment of the cost of the British train services against cheap air fare more than anything.

 

[SuperMuscleMan]

That's probably a more sad indictment of the cost of the British train services against cheap air fare more than anything.

Unfortunately your probably right. I find it amazing that when the train stopped at Ashford here in Kent before COVID I could get a return ticket (on a weekday or weekend) to DLP for £116 for 2 people. A return with Railcard for me to Alton with split ticketing to Alton on a weekend is £207 and £378 on a weekday 8 weeks in advance.

The funny thing is now trains don't stop in Kent anymore it costs £79 for 2 with a Railcard to get the 45 miles to london to go back on myself past where I could have gotten on which almost makes it break even in terms of cost to Alton (off peak). (Alton is sill £170 ish for 2 more expensive weekday travel)

It shows how in efficient train providers, unions and government have made our transport system. Which is to the detriment of attractions such as Alton towers.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Unfortunately your probably right. I find it amazing that when the train stopped at Ashford here in Kent before COVID I could get a return ticket (on a weekday or weekend) to DLP for £116 for 2 people. A return with Railcard for me to Alton with split ticketing to Alton on a weekend is £207 and £378 on a weekday 8 weeks in advance.

The funny thing is now trains don't stop in Kent anymore it costs £79 for 2 with a Railcard to get the 45 miles to london to go back on myself past where I could have gotten on which almost makes it break even in terms of cost to Alton (off peak). (Alton is sill £170 ish for 2 more expensive weekday travel)

It shows how in efficient train providers, unions and government have made our transport system. Which is to the detriment of attractions such as Alton towers.

It is truly fascinating how you have managed to blame "unions" and the "government" for the pricing and operational decisions of Eurostar, a private company in which the UK government holds absolutely zero equity and control. You can't demand small government and private enterprise, and then complain when that private enterprise decides it isn't profitable to pick you up in Ashford.

Eurostar didn't stop calling at Ashford International and Ebbsfleet because a train driver wanted a pay rise. They stopped because the introduction of hard borders meant that processing passengers at those stations became logistically impossible without causing massive delays to the entire network. The stations simply don't have the physical infrastructure to handle the stamping of passports (and the impending EES biometric checks) at the necessary throughput.

It was a commercial decision taken by a private entity to protect their core London to Paris / Brussels route. This is the pure, unadulterated capitalism you usually pine for. Blaming the RMT for the lack of border infrastructure at a station in Kent is like blaming the ride operator at The Smiler because it started raining.

Regulated rail fares in this country (which Eurostar is not subject to) are set by the Government based on RPI, not by the unions. Unregulated fares are set by the private operating companies based on demand. To blame "inefficiency" ignores the reality that the UK rail network operates on a model where the passenger is expected to shoulder a much higher percentage of the operating cost compared to the heavy state subsidies seen in Europe.

Back on topic...

The cost of rail travel is certainly a barrier, but the primary issue for Towers remains the last mile connectivity. Even if the train to Uttoxeter or Stoke were free, you are still dumped miles away from the resort with a sporadic bus service or an expensive taxi as your only option.

Until there is an integrated transport solution that actually gets you to the gate, comparing it to Phantasialand (where a shuttle runs like clockwork) or Plopsaland (which has a tram stop at the entrance) is moot. It isn't just about price; it's about the sheer hassle.

 

[owenstreet7]

Back on topic...

The cost of rail travel is certainly a barrier, but the primary issue for Towers remains the last mile connectivity. Even if the train to Uttoxeter or Stoke were free, you are still dumped miles away from the resort with a sporadic bus service or an expensive taxi as your only option.

Until there is an integrated transport solution that actually gets you to the gate, comparing it to Phantasialand (where a shuttle runs like clockwork) or Plopsaland (which has a tram stop at the entrance) is moot. It isn't just about price; it's about the sheer hassle.

I don't want to be throwing petrol on the fire about the Alton Towers Public Transport debate although it is a key topic that the park should be keeping an eye on.

I have a theory that this may be the reason on site accommodation could be so expensive, it's because of the lack of public transport options that hotel stays are sought after resulting in a demand for this and it being expensive as a result. Just my thoughts but certainly a possibility on where there's no incentive for the park to offer a shuttle.

 

[Bowser]

I have a theory that this may be the reason on site accommodation could be so expensive, it's because of the lack of public transport options that hotel stays are sought after resulting in a demand for this and it being expensive as a result. Just my thoughts but certainly a possibility on where there's no incentive for the park to offer a shuttle.

Is the hotel that expensive? Excluding the treehouses it's considerably cheaper than Legoland's hotel and around the same price as Chessington i believe.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I don't want to be throwing petrol on the fire about the Alton Towers Public Transport debate although it is a key topic that the park should be keeping an eye on.

I have a theory that this may be the reason on site accommodation could be so expensive, it's because of the lack of public transport options that hotel stays are sought after resulting in a demand for this and it being expensive as a result. Just my thoughts but certainly a possibility on where there's no incentive for the park to offer a shuttle.

Whilst I appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of the theory, I suspect the reality is the far more mundane logistic impracticality, and supply and demand.

To run an effective shuttle service from Stoke or Uttoxeter requires a fleet of vehicles to handle the tidal flow of guests. You need a massive capacity between 9:00 am and 11:00 am to get everyone in, and a massive capacity between 5:00 pm and 6:30 pm to get everyone out.

And for the six hours in between? Those buses, and their expensive PCV qualified drivers, sit idle in the coach park costing money. Unlike a municipal bus company that can redeploy vehicles to other routes during the day, a dedicated park shuttle is dead weight for 70% of its operational window.

Alton Towers also already struggles to recruit enough staff to push buttons on the rides. Trying to recruit and retain a fleet of bus drivers in a rural area, competing against First Bus and D&G (who offer full shifts), would be an operational headache they simply do not want.

Alton Towers has a relatively small number of rooms (approx 500 across the hotels and pods) compared to its daily gate capacity (often 15,000 - 20,000+). High demand + low supply = high prices. They charge a premium because people are willing to pay it for the "convenience" of not having to drive home exhausted, or simply to extend the "magic" (and access the bar).

The target demographic for a shuttle bus (teenagers, students, non drivers, budget conscious day trippers) is also largely distinct from the target demographic for on site accommodation (families seeking a "short break", guests with higher disposable income). Running a bus from Stoke wouldn't suddenly make a family of four decide to cancel their stay in the Splash Landings Hotel, it would just allow more teenagers from the Potteries to visit for the day.

The reason there is no shuttle isn't a grand conspiracy to protect hotel yields. It is because running a reliable transport service is expensive (OpEx), difficult to staff and Merlin would rather that cost be borne by the customer via their own petrol tank or a local taxi firm.

Never attribute to strategic genius that which can be adequately explained by penny pinching.

Is the hotel that expensive? Excluding the treehouses it's considerably cheaper than Legoland's hotel and around the same price as Chessington i believe.

Prices for single night stay, for two adults and two children, on March 14th (opening day) start from:

• Alton Towers Hotel - £260
• Splash Landings Hotel - £240
• CBeebies Land Hotel - £310
• Woodland Lodges - £265

None of these are inclusive of park entry.

Prices for single night stay, for two adults and two children, on March 14th, for LEGOLAND, start from:

• LEGOLAND Resort Hotel - £498
• LEGOLAND Castle Hotel - £498
• LEGOLAND Woodland Village - £378

None of these are inclusive of park entry.

 

[jon81uk]

That's probably a more sad indictment of the cost of the British train services against cheap air fare more than anything.

I think its more that the flight prices are very low rather than train prices high. But its possible with both modes of transport to find lowest prices on select days if you aren't worried about going on peak dates.

 

[owenstreet7]

Whilst I appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of the theory, I suspect the reality is the far more mundane logistic impracticality, and supply and demand.

To run an effective shuttle service from Stoke or Uttoxeter requires a fleet of vehicles to handle the tidal flow of guests. You need a massive capacity between 9:00 am and 11:00 am to get everyone in, and a massive capacity between 5:00 pm and 6:30 pm to get everyone out.

And for the six hours in between? Those buses, and their expensive PCV qualified drivers, sit idle in the coach park costing money. Unlike a municipal bus company that can redeploy vehicles to other routes during the day, a dedicated park shuttle is dead weight for 70% of its operational window.

Alton Towers also already struggles to recruit enough staff to push buttons on the rides. Trying to recruit and retain a fleet of bus drivers in a rural area, competing against First Bus and D&G (who offer full shifts), would be an operational headache they simply do not want.

Alton Towers has a relatively small number of rooms (approx 500 across the hotels and pods) compared to its daily gate capacity (often 15,000 - 20,000+). High demand + low supply = high prices. They charge a premium because people are willing to pay it for the "convenience" of not having to drive home exhausted, or simply to extend the "magic" (and access the bar).

The target demographic for a shuttle bus (teenagers, students, non drivers, budget conscious day trippers) is also largely distinct from the target demographic for on site accommodation (families seeking a "short break", guests with higher disposable income). Running a bus from Stoke wouldn't suddenly make a family of four decide to cancel their stay in the Splash Landings Hotel, it would just allow more teenagers from the Potteries to visit for the day.

The reason there is no shuttle isn't a grand conspiracy to protect hotel yields. It is because running a reliable transport service is expensive (OpEx), difficult to staff and Merlin would rather that cost be borne by the customer via their own petrol tank or a local taxi firm.

Never attribute to strategic genius that which can be adequately explained by penny pinching.

Great explanation, I would add though that the Thorpe Park service is outsourced to a bus company. Thorpe use Sullivan Buses for their shuttle.

In the case of Towers, I'd imagine it'd be outsourced to First, D&G or another company if it's to happen.

I'd also imagine that for hotel guests, there is more flexibility with arrivals so could arrive throughout the day and evening, even if it's in less numbers and less frequency.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Great explanation, I would add though that the Thorpe Park service is outsourced to a bus company. Thorpe use Sullivan Buses for their shuttle.

In the case of Towers, I'd imagine it'd be outsourced to First, D&G or another company if it's to happen.

The fundamental difference between the Thorpe Park Express and a potential Alton Towers Shuttle is geography and cycle time.

The run from Staines Railway Station to Thorpe Park is approximately 15 - 20 minutes. A single bus can perform two or three round trips in an hour during peak ingress. The asset is being worked hard and generating revenue constantly.

The run from Stoke-on-Trent Station to Alton Towers is, optimistically, 45 - 50 minutes (often longer with traffic). A single bus can arguably only perform one inbound trip during the critical 9:00am - 10:30am window before the demand drops off a cliff. To move the same number of people as Thorpe, you need three or four times as many vehicles and drivers.

Even if you outsource to First Potteries or D&G, the economics remain the same. The operator still has to pay a driver for a full shift, even if they are only really needed for two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. They will pass that inefficiency cost directly onto Merlin in the contract price. First used to run the X52 and 32A services commercially; they cut them back or scrapped them precisely because they weren't making money without a subsidy.

I'd also imagine that for hotel guests, there is more flexibility with arrivals so could arrive throughout the day and evening, even if it's in less numbers and less frequency.

Hotel guests arrival times are indeed more flexible, their luggage requirements are not. Trying to haul a weekend's worth of suitcases and two exhausted children onto a local bus service from Stoke station is a circle of hell that most families will pay £50 in petrol to avoid.

 

[rob666]

I think its more that the flight prices are very low rather than train prices high. But its possible with both modes of transport to find lowest prices on select days if you aren't worried about going on peak dates.

Stick the petrol duty like cars on their costs and the planes wouldn't be quite so cheap.

 

[SuperMuscleMan]

It is truly fascinating how you have managed to blame "unions" and the "government" for the pricing and operational decisions of Eurostar, a private company in which the UK government holds absolutely zero equity and control. You can't demand small government and private enterprise, and then complain when that private enterprise decides it isn't profitable to pick you up in Ashford.

Eurostar didn't stop calling at Ashford International and Ebbsfleet because a train driver wanted a pay rise. They stopped because the introduction of hard borders meant that processing passengers at those stations became logistically impossible without causing massive delays to the entire network. The stations simply don't have the physical infrastructure to handle the stamping of passports (and the impending EES biometric checks) at the necessary throughput.

It was a commercial decision taken by a private entity to protect their core London to Paris / Brussels route. This is the pure, unadulterated capitalism you usually pine for. Blaming the RMT for the lack of border infrastructure at a station in Kent is like blaming the ride operator at The Smiler because it started raining.

Regulated rail fares in this country (which Eurostar is not subject to) are set by the Government based on RPI, not by the unions. Unregulated fares are set by the private operating companies based on demand. To blame "inefficiency" ignores the reality that the UK rail network operates on a model where the passenger is expected to shoulder a much higher percentage of the operating cost compared to the heavy state subsidies seen in Europe.

Back on topic...

The cost of rail travel is certainly a barrier, but the primary issue for Towers remains the last mile connectivity. Even if the train to Uttoxeter or Stoke were free, you are still dumped miles away from the resort with a sporadic bus service or an expensive taxi as your only option.

Until there is an integrated transport solution that actually gets you to the gate, comparing it to Phantasialand (where a shuttle runs like clockwork) or Plopsaland (which has a tram stop at the entrance) is moot. It isn't just about price; it's about the sheer hassle.

Hang on a minute Corbyn!

Don't know how you misread it and wanted to make it political. I was pointing out the fact that Eurostar was cheaper which is a private company compared to the majority of the UK rail network.

At no point did I blame unions or government on the decisions of Eurostar! Do you constantly want to start a fight?

The issues with Eurostar are a issue that as a local I'm well aware of (you also seem to ignore the fact that when it was build it sliced the county and many villages in half and was sold to the locals as a benefit) and my point which you seemed to ignore was it was cheaper to go to DLP including the journey to London and back!

My arguement was that General rail travel was super expensive compared to that of Eurostar.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Hang on a minute Corbyn!

Don't know how you misread it and wanted to make it political. I was pointing out the fact that Eurostar was cheaper which is a private company compared to the majority of the UK rail network.

At no point did I blame unions or government on the decisions of Eurostar! Do you constantly want to start a fight?

Comrade,

I am not trying to start a fight; I am merely attempting to prevent you from assaulting the facts in broad daylight.

You explicitly concluded your previous complaint about the lack of stops at Ashford by stating: "It shows how in efficient train providers, unions and government have made our transport system." If that wasn't an attribution of blame regarding the situation you had just described, it was a remarkably coincidental placement of words. Additionally, explicitly citing the "unions and government" as the cause of a problem is the literal definition of making a point political. You opened that door, I just waddled through it.

my point which you seemed to ignore was it was cheaper to go to DLP including the journey to London and back!

My arguement was that General rail travel was super expensive compared to that of Eurostar.

Try booking a Eurostar ticket to Paris for tomorrow morning. You will find that the "efficiency" of the private sector demands about £350 for a standard return. Private companies are very cheap when they want to fill empty seats months out, but they are extortionate when they have you over a barrel.

You are comparing a yield managed, airline style dynamic ticket on Eurostar from the "good old days" (booked months in advance) with a domestic rail fare structure that is a mess of regulated and unregulated pricing.

However, even if we accept your premise that international rail was cheaper, the fundamental issue regarding Alton Towers remains the value proposition, not just the ticket price.

£116 to get to Disneyland Paris got you to the park gates (well, Marne-la-Vallée).
£207 to get to Alton Towers gets you to... Stoke-on-Trent.

Even if the train ticket to Stoke was £50, you are still left standing on a wet pavement figuring out how to cover the remaining 15 miles. That isn't a failure of "inefficient" unions. It is a failure of geography and local infrastructure.

you also seem to ignore the fact that when it was build it sliced the county and many villages in half and was sold to the locals as a benefit

That is the nature of high-speed infrastructure. You cannot have a 186 mph rail link to the continent without laying some track. The "benefit" sold to locals was indeed access to that network via Ashford and Ebbsfleet. That benefit was removed not by the railway, but by the decision to impose a hard external border that made processing passengers at those intermediate stations logistically unviable.