The Trump debate, and international politics in general.

[Jb85]

My two pennies worth - very short on time here though.

Trump is a clever man. He knows exactly which buttons to press to get reactions. He won’t go through with a lot of what was said - but the point is it made people listen.

Now he has an audience it makes it easier for him to get things done. Telling people what they want to hear (as most backwards Americans do) gets them on side so it’s politically easier for him to push things through. Really simple.

In terms of policies - a lot of what he has proposed and stands for I kind of get. Just the way he goes about it doesn’t sit well with me (or is more cultured Brits)

But I genuinely believe he has his people’s best interests at heart. And has created a positive vibe already.

More than can be said for Sir Kier….. and those before him since Bojo. I actually think this country would benefit from a Trump like character.

 

[AT86]

But I genuinely believe he has his people’s best interests at heart. And has created a positive vibe already.

Christ. I can’t say racism, fascism, homophobia and transphobia are my idea of a ‘positive vibe’.

And he’s only on day 3.

 

[Plastic Person]

The Anti-Defamation League, which was specifically set up to combat anti-Semitism in the US and generally considered experts on all thinks Nazi, have said that they don't believe that Musk performed a Nazi salute.

The ADL exists as a Conservative, pro-Israel mouthpiece. Its leader, Jonathan Greenblatt, has spent the last two decades alienating swathes of the generally progressive Jewish community and other organisations at the intersection of anti-racism, and this communication did a fine job of underscoring what they're about in the modern day. One of the seemingly endless 'mask off' revelations that we've been collectively witnessing as of late.

Musk is so irritating. From my perspective, the salute incident is just another example of him tittering, seeing, and proving what he can get away with for "the lulz." Absolutely excruciating to have the richest, arguably most powerful person in the world share the same sense of humour as a teenager on Reddit circa 2013. I can live surprisingly comfortably knowing that society is undercut by shadowy forces, but I simply can't deal with democracy being undermined by a bloke who wants to be regarded as a 'meme king'.

As for Trump creating 'positive VIBES,' this is a comment I repeatedly saw as I sat and gawped at him finally performing alongside The Village People. It's an attitude designed to create another division as if anybody not rightly concerned about the ongoing erosion of norms and a complete lack of accountability is some sort of killjoy. Unfortunately, we already seem to have sleepwalked into a world in which our consumption directly intertwines with the profits of fascists and in which nothing really seems to mean anything.

 

[Benzin]

I was going to write a longer post, but quite frankly if you think a person like Trump would be good for the UK then I feel all is lost.

He has his people's best interests at heart. It's just the rich Nazis rather than Joe Average in the rust belt.

 

[Matt N]

I think he’ll want an illusion that things are getting done quickly in his first couple of days, hence the flurry of executive orders and the like. Starmer was the same back in July.

Fundamentally, I think the reason Trump and the like are so successful is because they tap into a very widespread feeling of apathy and disillusionment with “the system” and the existing political status quo. Rightly or wrongly, a sizeable number of people feel that the neoliberal status quo of the last few decades has left them behind and ignored them, and Trump is coming along as a disruptor and presenting ways of sorting this out. Granted, it’s often at someone else’s expense, and I’d argue he presents easy ways out for solving difficult and complex problems rather than long-term sustainable solutions, but if you’re disillusioned with the system, sometimes you just want to hear someone who acknowledges your feelings and your perceived issues, and Trump does do that.

I think the left wing political parties (and the Conservatives in the UK, as I’d lump them in as part of the “status quo” as well) have a lot to answer for in terms of the rise of the populist right. The issue is that when people like Trump win, the left sticks its fingers in its ears hoping the sentiment that led to his victory will go away and/or vilifies the supporters as stupid, racist and/or bigoted instead of listening to the fundamental message that Trump et al’s voters are sending; that they don’t feel listened to by “the system” and want change. The likes of the Democrats, as of late, have put forward figures who merely tamper with the edges of the existing status quo rather than proposing radical change to benefit working class people, and have relied on fear of the right in elections rather than their own positive vision and policy agenda.

The tactic of vilifying the right as a primary election tactic has admittedly worked in some cases (e.g. for Starmer and Labour in 2024, for Biden and the Democrats in 2020), but I think it only has a very temporary effect and only really works when the party in question isn’t the incumbent. While this strategy worked for Biden in 2020, it didn’t hold any weight for Harris in 2024, as while Harris tried to ramp up the threats about Trump, Americans were feeling the pinch under the incumbent Biden/Harris government and wanted to send a message of discontent that they weren’t OK with the status quo, and Trump was coming along presenting change to that status quo. I feel that the same may be true for Starmer and Labour come 2029 if they don’t improve living standards for working class people; Starmer can’t use the tactic of moaning about how bad the Tories are again when he’s been the incumbent for 5 years.

So how does the left respond to Trump and the like? In my view, it’s simply a case of acknowledging people’s problems and presenting radical, but practical solutions to them. Make the forgotten portion of the electorate feel heard with radical policy that will make a material improvement to their lives. Fundamentally, I believe that most people who voted Trump simply did so out of a sense of disillusionment with the existing neoliberal status quo, and I don’t see why the left wing parties can’t tap into that equally as well as the right wing ones can with some radical left-wing policy ideas that would really improve people’s lives. But currently, the mainstream left-wing parties mostly seem content with simply adjusting the status quo round the edges rather than properly redressing the balance in favour of working class individuals, which I feel only breeds the sort of resentment that leads to the election of individuals like Donald Trump.

 

[Matt.GC]

Much like my view on the Democrats loosing, Starmers current woes, and the rise of populism in general throughout western democracies, I've tried for years to understand it. I believe it's the only way to fight it.

I adopted the same approach with 9/11, 7/7, and it really hit home with the Great Recession in 2008. The 2000's was the decade when everything changed and this post modern era began. Straight out of the blocks the dot com bubble burst, and out of the ashes came very powerful companies like Amazon, Alphabet, and now Meta. As the Northern Irish troubles began to subside, Islamist extremism was the main threat to our way of life and damaging wars ensued whilst extremists murdered innocent people on our streets. People harmed by the ways our economies had been structured took a further hit when everything crashed in 2007/08 and we've all limped on ever since.

This gave way to a decade of trying to get everything back to normal by resuscitating the old order but it was too late. Dictatorships like China were now rich and powerful, the flaws of our economies and banking systems were exposed, and traditional forms of media took a hit whilst powerful tech companies became the new media providers.

Now, the truth doesn't matter anymore.

I spoke to someone who is actually quite intelligent the other day, and I picked apart the rationale behind their admiration for Reform, Trump, and all manner of populists across Europe. We even went as far as discussing Japan. But what it all boiled down to is us both wanting the same thing. Things had to change over 20 years ago, that change didn't happen, so the populists have exploited that. They've used social media and spread fear and suspicion, making it in indistinguishable from the truth to many. Most seem to not care about this even when challenged, they appear to "at least be daring and doing something different". Trying to berrate them for being so cruel further enforces their views, they've already been indoctrinated and radicalised, and their puppet masters have a plan for that, anyone else must be a "woke leftie", "part of the establishment" or themselves be radicalised by the "mainstream media".

If you look carefully at Trumps executive orders, it's all staged to back his narrative up with actions. Piles of files on the oval office desk, "ooh, this is a big one" (even if it isn't), some of them containing orders to release dangerous thugs from prison, whilst others sat next to them are aimed at deporting other dangerous thugs (with words and bluster that will likely just get blamed on everyone else when they fail to deliver). As long as the dangerous thugs are Trump supporters, it gives him more power to have them free, his own Sturm Abeilung/Titushky/shabiha style 'MAGA' thugs and not those ones with Canadian or Mexican heritage.

Populism is never the answer. It's never been successful, and in America it is turning into fascism. But that's not Trump's actual aim, it's just power and glory. It's what he's done all his life. But suckers will fall for it because it gives the impression of someone doing something bold.

I fear it's too late. I had a glance at some of the comments around a poll on the Southport murders the other day. It seemed reasonable to me why the Prime Minister had not jeopardised the case by joining in with the misinformation campaign. But I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of "deport Muslims", "close the borders, we need Reform!", and "Tommy is a hero, at least the Americans have Trump" comments.

People want change, they just don't know what the answers are, or maybe aren't interested in trying to find them. Forget the old era of politicians cozying up to newspaper barons. To fill these voids comes the populists with their easy answers, quick fixes, and scapegoats, sometimes with their own social media channels in which to spread the word.

But interestingly, they is an outlier which I want to know more about. Australia, an advanced economy and democracy, with a 2 party system, that doesn't seem to have succumbed to all this populist nonsense.

 

[flyingguitar]

My two pennies worth - very short on time here though.

Trump is a clever man. He knows exactly which buttons to press to get reactions. He won’t go through with a lot of what was said - but the point is it made people listen.

Now he has an audience it makes it easier for him to get things done. Telling people what they want to hear (as most backwards Americans do) gets them on side so it’s politically easier for him to push things through. Really simple.

In terms of policies - a lot of what he has proposed and stands for I kind of get. Just the way he goes about it doesn’t sit well with me (or is more cultured Brits)

But I genuinely believe he has his people’s best interests at heart. And has created a positive vibe already.

More than can be said for Sir Kier….. and those before him since Bojo. I actually think this country would benefit from a Trump like character.

yeah no, have you heard of what trump has done. trump is a really bad leader for multiple reasons:

He is a narcissist: he only cares about himself, no one else, he has to be the greatest, he has to be the best and anyone opposing him will be punished (we saw this with the number of firings in the cabinet) he asked all federal staff who they voted for (with some thinking doge may be used to fire non trump voting employees) he is someone who said how stupid solders were for going to D-day, asking why they did it, and what they got from it. During intelligence meetings the officers had to keep putting trumps name in the documents to ensure he actually read them. he got the government to pay millions to himself to allow him to live at his own home.

He constantly lies: he constantly lies, even if you did no wrong, the emperor has new clothes and he accused you, so you are guilty.

His policies don't make sense and won't solve anything: the problem is we are all in economic down turn due to the stimulus from covid affecting the economy and companies becoming insanely huge monopolies, house prices are high etc. this led to people saying "simple fixes" which won't fix anything. deport all migrants, well if they only made up 0.5% of the workforce, then there won't be many new jobs for you and your back at square one, but now there is a new enemy who has your job.

There are so much more, these are the main ones.

I fear it's too late. I had a glance at some of the comments around a poll on the Southport murders the other day. It seemed reasonable to me why the Prime Minister had not jeopardised the case by joining in with the misinformation campaign. But I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of "deport Muslims", "close the borders, we need Reform!", and "Tommy is a hero, at least the Americans have Trump" comments.

I think there can be a few reasons for this:
There are a lot of social medias trying to be right wing,
Bot are a massive problem with people trying to spread their hate,
a few people can make a big impact on social media, with the Southport who is going to comment on that, you may get a couple comments about how sad it was, but people with a vested interest in spreading hate will be the ones commenting, you may see 200 comments like that, but that may be because the 200 people who believe that come out and seek those posts to comment that.

 

[rob666]

I'm with the bishop.

 

[Benzin]

I'm with the bishop.

Don't be bringing religion into politics*!



*Apart from the bits in the Bible we like. Just ignore the more hypocritical parts.

 

[Matt N]

I have to admit that I don’t think some of the rhetoric employed by Trump’s enemies helps the anti-Trump cause.

I agree with the man on very little, but I do feel that the word “fascist” is being thrown around too casually to describe him (to show I’m not biased, I also feel that the word “communist” was thrown around too casually to describe Jeremy Corbyn), and I do feel that some of the rhetoric thrown around about how Trump could be “the end of society” and “the next Hitler” and the like is potentially a little alarmist. Hitler did truly awful things, and we have thus far seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Trump will even come close to matching these atrocities in his time in office.

I also don’t think it helps when people try and do things like assassinate him or yell “racist” or try and otherwise undermine him. It only serves to embolden Trump amongst his allies and reinforce his narrative that he’s some “freedom fighter” fighting against “the establishment” and everyone’s out to get him. If Trump’s enemies scrutinised his policy like they would any other politician rather than making it personal and trying to assassinate him and such, I think the anti-Trump cause might get further.

I’m not saying I agree with him, but I think his opponents should scrutinise his policies like any other politician rather than trying to make it personal and assassinate him (he suffered multiple assassination attempts during the 2024 campaign alone, let’s remember) or put around very alarmist rhetoric about him. Like it or not, Donald Trump was elected by the American people in a free and fair election, so he should be afforded the courtesy of being treated as a legitimately elected individual like any other president.

 

[flyingguitar]

I agree with the man on very little, but I do feel that the word “fascist” is being thrown around too casually to describe him (to show I’m not biased, I also feel that the word “communist” was thrown around too casually to describe Jeremy Corbyn), and I do feel that some of the rhetoric thrown around about how Trump could be “the end of society” and “the next Hitler” and the like is potentially a little alarmist. Hitler did truly awful things, and we have thus far seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Trump will even come close to matching these atrocities in his time in office.

Yeah, I do agree with this, calling one set of people simething will just lead to name calling and the current state of the us government, where nothing gets done and you bicker all the time. but I do think he has been getting more and more dictatorial, and he is getting closer and closer to the line.

I have studied the weimar government and the rise of nazis in Germany. It was a while ago but there are quite a few matching things that concerns me that we may repeat history:

Economic downturn causing problems for lower income people.
Main platform that x group is the reason for your problems.
A failed revolt and attempt to over thrown the government (Munich pitch and jan 6th),
Massive distrust of current political parties thinking they have ruined the best nation.
Very extremist politics comming out, with us vs them mentality.
Repeatedly called for countries to become a part of the US and isn't afraid of using military force or coercion
And more

I also don’t think it helps when people try and do things like assassinate him or yell “racist” or try and otherwise undermine him. It only serves to embolden Trump amongst his allies and reinforce his narrative that he’s some “freedom fighter” fighting against “the establishment” and everyone’s out to get him. If Trump’s enemies scrutinised his policy like they would any other politician rather than making it personal and trying to assassinate him and such, I think the anti-Trump cause might get further.

Quite true. The problem is that the fake news bs he speaks of works and his voters only believe him or fox, there is not this cult on the left.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I'm just putting this out there:
Isn't all this Nazi name calling incredibly offensive to those who died as a result of the actual real Nazis?

 

[Benzin]

I'm just putting this out there:
Isn't all this Nazi name calling incredibly offensive to those who died as a result of the actual real Nazis?

Is it wrong to call someone who openly supports the far-right AfD political group in Germany as well as making certain associated arm gestures a Nazi? (Referring to Muskrat not Trump, although as the saying goes if 1 person on a table of 10 is a Nazi then you have 10 Nazis)

The term has pretty much become synonymous with fascist regimes. Because it's pretty much one and the same.

 

[flyingguitar]

I'm just putting this out there:
Isn't all this Nazi name calling incredibly offensive to those who died as a result of the actual real Nazis?

I don't call them nazis because they aren't they are a differnt group. I think they are more of a dictatorial / fascist group but they are their own group with differnt ideologies.

I would also argue with my previous point that the similarities between the rise of the nazis and trump, whilst trump may not be as bad as them would allowing a similar power to rise also be offensive.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I'm just putting this out there:
Isn't all this Nazi name calling incredibly offensive to those who died as a result of the actual real Nazis?

To be as reductive as this statement is, no. They're dead. They can't be offended.

Language evolves.

If you don't like Christmas you are a Scrooge, but you're not Ebineezer Scrooge.

You can call someone a hooligan, but it is unlikely that they have that Irish dervived family surname.

You can call someone a luddite, but I doubt many of them are smashing up looms.

We eat sandwiches, but not the Earl of Sandwich.

We boycott things, but none of us are Captain Charles Boycott who was ostracised for the way he treated his tennants.

The term Nazi has evolved to mean those who share similar behaviours and ideologies. You no longer have to be a paid up member of the NSDAP from between 1923 and 1945 to qualify.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Double post, whip me.

I have to admit that I don’t think some of the rhetoric employed by Trump’s enemies helps the anti-Trump cause.

I agree with the man on very little, but I do feel that the word “fascist” is being thrown around too casually to describe him (to show I’m not biased, I also feel that the word “communist” was thrown around too casually to describe Jeremy Corbyn), and I do feel that some of the rhetoric thrown around about how Trump could be “the end of society” and “the next Hitler” and the like is potentially a little alarmist. Hitler did truly awful things, and we have thus far seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Trump will even come close to matching these atrocities in his time in office.

I also don’t think it helps when people try and do things like assassinate him or yell “racist” or try and otherwise undermine him. It only serves to embolden Trump amongst his allies and reinforce his narrative that he’s some “freedom fighter” fighting against “the establishment” and everyone’s out to get him. If Trump’s enemies scrutinised his policy like they would any other politician rather than making it personal and trying to assassinate him and such, I think the anti-Trump cause might get further.

I’m not saying I agree with him, but I think his opponents should scrutinise his policies like any other politician rather than trying to make it personal and assassinate him (he suffered multiple assassination attempts during the 2024 campaign alone, let’s remember) or put around very alarmist rhetoric about him. Like it or not, Donald Trump was elected by the American people in a free and fair election, so he should be afforded the courtesy of being treated as a legitimately elected individual like any other president.

If we were to break apart the definition of fascism, or fascist, I actually struggle to see how Trump in his current iteration doesn't actually fall into it.

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Opposed to anarchism, democracy, pluralism, egalitarianism, liberalism, socialism, and Marxism, fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum. (From Wikipedia)

He has been democratically elected, but so were the actual original fascists, Mussolini and Hitler. He rules in an authoritarian autocratic nature, as his recent spate of Executive Orders show. Militarism is self evident. Forcible suppression of opposition comes in spades. Belief in a natural social hierarchy has been demonstrated time and time again, with America First and a disdain for those who are "foreign born" (ironic, given his descent but let's not forget that Hitler wasn't German either). Subordination of individual interests, under the guise of improving the human race, unless it fails in with his own individual interests. He has promised a strong regimentation of society (two genders only, trans* people do not exist) and the economy.

Let's not also forget that he also lead an insurrection attempt against his own country on January 6th 2021, a move that could be called an attempted coup or, even, a putsch.

 

[rob666]

I have heard the above member has occasionally been seen to goose step.

 

[flyingguitar]

He has been democratically elected, but so were the actual original fascists, Mussolini and Hitler. He rules in an authoritarian autocratic nature, as his recent spate of Executive Orders show. Militarism is self evident. Forcible suppression of opposition comes in spades. Belief in a natural social hierarchy has been demonstrated time and time again, with America First and a disdain for those who are "foreign born" (ironic, given his descent but let's not forget that Hitler wasn't German either). Subordination of individual interests, under the guise of improving the human race, unless it fails in with his own individual interests. He has promised a strong regimentation of society (two genders only, trans* people do not exist) and the economy.

Let's not also forget that he also lead an insurrection attempt against his own country on January 6th 2021, a move that could be called an attempted coup or, even, a putsch.

Yeah this is a lot better of wording than me, this is what I fear about it with his second presidency. to me I feel like it is really similar to back in 1933 before / during the Reichstag fire as the retoric feels similar and i can easily see many ways trump will try to stay in the presidency (I don't think he thought he would loose 2020 and then had to panic to fix it in a couple of months, he knows he can't run again now so he has time to plan.

for those who don't know how hitler became to power here is a very quick tldr (summarising a lot:
weinmar government formed from ww1 was forced into signing treaty of Versailles, which required Germany to pay a ton of money in reparations to the allies, and forbids them from having a big army, airforce, big navy etc.
In order to try to keep paying for the treaty the government has to print more money leading to hyper inflation untill money wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
Hitler and the Nazis rise out of this to a bit popular.
Hitler tries to start a revolution in Munich known as the munch putsch but it fails,
the nazis continue in parliment.
Hitler is eventually able to become chancellor.
the Reichstag (think building of parliament) is burned down, a dutch communist was the culprit allowing the police (controlled by the nazis) to arrest hundreds of comunists
an state of emergency was declared and The Reichstag Fire Decree was forced in using the emergency power (no vote in the parliament equivalent) limiting many civil liberties
As a result of fearmongering other parties (such as the communists, etc) Nazis were able gain seats in parliament equivalent and wins 43.9%.
The enabling act is passed which essentially gave Hitler the ability to go past parliament and just make laws. all in less than a month since the fire.
Then he did many things (get rid of political opponents, ban trade unions etc) leading to what happened

 

[Leigh]

Musk is so irritating. From my perspective, the salute incident is just another example of him tittering, seeing, and proving what he can get away with for "the lulz." Absolutely excruciating to have the richest, arguably most powerful person in the world share the same sense of humour as a teenager on Reddit circa 2013.

That’s far too generous. Try 4chan circa 2010.

 

[Dave]

My two pennies worth - very short on time here though.

Trump is a clever man. He knows exactly which buttons to press to get reactions. He won’t go through with a lot of what was said - but the point is it made people listen.

Now he has an audience it makes it easier for him to get things done. Telling people what they want to hear (as most backwards Americans do) gets them on side so it’s politically easier for him to push things through. Really simple.

In terms of policies - a lot of what he has proposed and stands for I kind of get. Just the way he goes about it doesn’t sit well with me (or is more cultured Brits)

But I genuinely believe he has his people’s best interests at heart. And has created a positive vibe already.

More than can be said for Sir Kier….. and those before him since Bojo. I actually think this country would benefit from a Trump like character.

You really think he has the people of America’s interest at heart? That seems to fly against all available evidence. Just three examples:

He promised to reduce food costs, his policy’s on immigration and tariffs will increase them (already reports that farmers in the US can’t pick crops as their workers are now in hiding).

He wants to cut trillions from the federal budget, unless he cuts defence spending (which he won’t do) they will have to cull Medicare and social security. America already has the highest medical costs of any developed nation so that will go down well.

He has just suspended all health research, delaying key projects aimed at improving health and has put an anti-vaxer in charge of the nations health, that’s a job killer, investment killer and people killer in one executive order.

Trump cares about one person… Trump.

You may or may not like the current governments policies or believe they will not work (and there is a debate about that to be had) but Starmer is far more concerned with actual people than Trump of Bojo, the fact you think otherwise truly baffles me.

And as for creating a positive vibe, minorities are terrified, thousands of people are losing their job and the cost of food has already inflated this week alone, your definition of positive is very different to mine.